Name of the Rose: Third Day - Fourth Day

[Alana]

Please post your thoughts on this section.

[Alana]

Just read a couple chapters with a lot of involved history of the church and various views that were considered heretical, and a very long explanation by William. Interesting, but also sections where I found myself reading a paragraph three times and realizing I didn't remember any of it. Time to set it aside for the evening, lol.

[Irene]

I am at the end of the third day. What is the purpose of all this philosophising? To me, it is making the novel less credible. This narrator supposedly experienced this many years earlier, when a novice (apparently novices had more freedom in the 1300s than in contemporary Benedictine monasteries) and can recall all these detailed conversations? And, how does he recall verbatum conversation with that monk who speaks gibberish? Nonetheless, I am finding the story sufficiently engaging. But, I do have one question from the previous section. When these two guys enter the library that first time and come on that burning herb... afterward, our narrator reports being nauseus several times while trying to find their way out of the library. If he got sick to his stomach in that space, wouldn't they have left pretty credible evidence of their intrusion? Why wasn't it discovered?

[Alana]

Yeah, the verbatim remembrances definitely take away any attempt at credibility. I am enjoying it despite that, though. And yes, I was very surprised that no one has seemed to notice their foray into the library as of yet, because with all the bumbling around they did, surely SOMEONE would have taken note?

[Irene]

Are you tempted to check on historical detail such as whether or not there were groups such as the Minorites or the Fratracelli? I do recognize some of the details as accurate, but there are some that bother me for being inaccurate. The one that is bothering me right now is the wrong use of the term "noontime Devil". In all my reading of spiritual classics through the centuries, I have never seen it equated with lust or another sexual sin. It is a spiritual laziness or discouragement, the sense that one is getting no where spiritually and the temptation to give up on the monastic or other spiritual disciplines, a "why bother" attitude to one's spiritual commitment.

[Alana]

I'm pretty sure all of the groups mentioned were real, although like any group, their true nature could certainly be misrepresented. But William goes on a lengthy explanation about that in one of these chapters; it's an interesting point of view.

[Irene]

Yes, after posting that wonder, I did a bit of research on the history of the Franciscans and found several of the names I had not heard about before. Those I did recognize do seem to be broadly consistant with their historical reality.

[Alana]

I mostly find it amusing in a "times haven't changed much" kind of way. Still lots of infighting and outfighting, just the names have changed. That's of all groups, not just Christian or religious ones.

[Irene]

Well, I finished this last evening. Although I recognize the quality of the writing, I found that a murder mystery was not the best vehicle for me to be drawn into the considerations of the type of questions about the nature of truth, the meaning of knowledge, the prception of God, etc, which this book was driving toward. I did not have the ability to watch so many juggling balls and so chose to watch the murder mystery ball. But, the philosophical questions were essential to understanding the resolution, or at least appreciating it. And, so the ending was anticlimatic. The longer I read, the more pompous it felt.

[Alana]

Some quotes I've found interesting from this section:

Third Day, After Compline: "...the magic of mirrors is such that even when you know they are mirrors they still upset you."
So true! I can't tell you how many times I've startled myself at a mirror when I knew better!

Fourth Day, Sext (after Adso is explaining abut the linguistic misunderstanding of "truffle" vs. "der Teufel" (Devil): "Such is the magic of human languages, that by human accord often the same sounds mean different things."
I know this especially after having taught an informal ESL class for over a year. Often things that sound totally different to a native English speaker can sound the same to a learner, making for some interesting and amusing misunderstandings!

Fourth Day, After Compline: "Books are not made to be believed, but to be subjected to inquiry. When we consider a book, we mustn't ask ourselves what it says but what it means..."
Thoughts on this statement? After all, isn't that basically what we do when we have these book discussions, look beyond what the book "says" to what it's implying between the lines?

[Alana]

I do find all of the focus on books and the written word and the power of literacy and language quite fascinating. The love of books seems to be a cross-cultural, cross-generational phenomenon!

The whole thing with the girl in the kitchen feels out of place, although a lot of the happenings thus far seem to be rather disjointed. I assume it all comes together in the end somehow but it's hard to see it at this juncture. It also seemed out of Adso's character (view spoiler)[ to be so suddenly enamored and forgets all of his vows. I would understand it if it took place over a longer period of time, but to just suddenly come upon a woman and just fall into her? Is the reasoning that he's so tired that he's not thinking straight? He seems to be very pious so I don't doubt that he is genuinely remorseful. Actually some of his thoughts afterwards about the beauty of the coupling, and that it's not necessarily wrong, but rather wrong FOR HIM, because of the vows he's taken, are rather insightful. I just found the suddenness of it rather out of place. (hide spoiler)]

William's insights into the library are rather interesting and fun! I love the diagram and the locked off room. Actually, this appears to be a "locked room" mystery of sorts, in that our possible culprits seem to be only from the members of the abbey itself. But the added puzzles and clues make it more like a modern quest in a way.

The ending of the section makes me angry, but also makes me think: (view spoiler)[I love (sarcasm) that they just assume the woman is up to witchcraft because it couldn't POSSIBLY be the pious monk's fault for having urges! No, the woman is seducing him, it's her fault! So she'll pay for his inability to keep it in his pants (robe?) with her life, and a very cruel death, at that. Sexism at its finest. (hide spoiler)]

I feel like a lot of the philosophical sections don't so much make the point of their orators, but rather make the point that their arguments are circular and/or contradictory, and that the dissenters often are more concerned with winning an argument than what is the truth. This is a lesson we in the modern world still haven't learned...