Outlander
discussion
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
date
newest »
newest »
The good: mainly the love, loyalty and respect between Jamie and Claire, and their bond with family, friends and clansmen. Jamie and Claire's growth as a couple, learning to accept and trust each other under circumstances that were not always favorable. The historic detail and description that transports you to another time and place. Bad and ugly: life is often bad and ugly, why would this epic series about the lifetime of two people living in the 1700's, spanning two continents and several wars, not have bad and ugly times and people.
I never thought of Claire as a clueless-woman-needs-rescuing. It was because Claire came from a more civilized time that she made mistakes and ended up in bad situations in the beginning. Which I feel was necessary to the story. I don't always agree with Claire's decisions but I never found her to be weak or clueless.
I do agree Geilis became troubling in the later books, but in the beginning I found her to be entertaining...one of the many colorful characters that added to Claire's adventure.
Quite frankly when I read a book that takes place in the 1700's I don't expect it to be big on feminism, because feminism didn't exist. I may find the accepted treatment of women in the 1700's wrong and unfair, but I don't find it distressing or problematic. Even in 1949 Claire was little more then 'Frank's wife'. The independence she experienced as a WWII nurse was gone when the war ended. History is full of unfair treatment of other people, and customs that would not be accepted today, and although it may be troubling, history can't be changed.
I find Ms Gabaldon's characterization for the time periods well done.
The good: Interesting and unique portrayals of strong women. There are many different ways that one can exhibit and demonstrate strength. Jamie's sister, for example. (I thought she was portrayed excellently in the TV show, btw. The actress that they chose was perfect for the role and she does a marvellous job.) She's not necessarily picking up a sword and riding into battle like the men, but she runs an entire estate and she isn't pushed around by the men in her life even though the society that she is living in says otherwise. The Bad and Ugly: Despite their strength, depictions of just how vulnerable women still were. A strong woman could still be abused. Could still be raped, beaten, murdered. A strong woman could be labelled a whore or a witch and be persecuted. I actually consider this to be good about the book, rather than bad...but this notion also goes against many modern teachings of feminism, so I can understand how some would see it as "bad".
Mochaspresso, good point about Jenny. I really found her character fabulous; definitely not a woman to be trifled with! Also good point about the relative good/badness of portraying unpleasant but true realities -- thought provoking, thanks.
Sage wrote: "The good: mainly the love, loyalty and respect between Jamie and Claire, and their bond with family, friends and clansmen. Jamie and Claire's growth as a couple, learning to accept and trust each o..."Well said
I'm not quite sure why I finally picked up Outlander as I'm not usually an appreciater of fantasy. I was reminded early on of Mary Stewart's writing style (I guess it is funny that I very much like Mary Stewart as she wrote her share of fantasy). I wasn't aware that it was also a romance.I guess most of my comments are on the romantic side of the book.
I was thrilled that for once, we didn't have a shrinking violet virgin as the heroine. Thank all the powers that be that I didn't have to endure another "it's so big it can't possibly fit!" scene! I was however, disappointed that Claire was the typical heroine when it came to receiving oral sex for the first time. Although, gotta give DG credit for Jamie's comeback to Claire's discomfort.
Not so thrilled with the "I'm going to take you whether you say yes or no" scenes.
I was uncomfortable with the beating scene but thought it worked within the context very well. I very much disliked that he states later that he enjoyed it but I actually found it more disturbing when he tells her (later in the book, I think) that battle produces a raging hard on,. While I might not like these things it's certainly not the first time I've heard that men become physically aroused as a result (side effect?) of anger and violence. It made me think about the tendencies for wartime rape.
I felt very sad during the part where Jamie is "entertaining" the group at dinner with his experiences with -oh, forget his name- the lord they think might be able to help get the price off of Jamie's head or at least reduce his punishment who also happens to like teen boys. I kept thinking about the difference in attitude toward the rape of males and females. I kept pondering that Claire is rescued more than a few times from being raped (and Jenny as well, sort of) and Jamie risked his life to prevent their rapes and yet is so devastatingly raped himself in the end. I guess it rather broke my heart that he sacrificed himself so much-Jenny's comment about her honor and his life, vice versa was very on point.
I would guess that DG chose him to be the one raped as it would have been too much for the reader to experience Claire being raped (view spoiler).
I give
DG tremendous credit for Jamie's words about the little part inside of him that is suddenly without shelter, whimpering and trying to protect himself and not doing a good job of it. What an amazing way to communicate those feelings!
I was unexpectedly pleased with the reading and although I kept wondering how she could get another book out of this (let alone several) I have downloaded the second one. I'm trying to decide whether to start right away or take a little Outlander break.
Yeah, I shared a lot of your thoughts in common. It's funny, I also am not typically a reader of either much fantasy or romance, but did enjoy Outlander. It's interesting to me your point about Jenny's 'my honor vs. your life' comment because in some ways it reflects one of the undercurrents I found interesting -- the women of the story taking the lead in disrupting gender role narratives with Jamie in counterpoint in many ways at times, while simultaneously embracing the appeal of women who have things to teach him about themselves & life.
I've read some of the best books at the beach.
Sage wrote: "The good: mainly the love, loyalty and respect between Jamie and Claire, and their bond with family, friends and clansmen. Jamie and Claire's growth as a couple, learning to accept and trust each o..."Sage wrote: "The good: mainly the love, loyalty and respect between Jamie and Claire, and their bond with family, friends and clansmen. Jamie and Claire's growth as a couple, learning to accept and trust each o..."
Brilliant reply to the topic saying absolutely everything I would have written myself.
Diane wrote: "Beach reading."My word, a very scathing remark!
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
I know that some people have found parts of the series distressing and disempowering/antifeminist. Notably, the spanking scene has taken its share of heat for being problematic.
To me, though, there were some really important, empowering and positive messages, scenes and themes in the books. The TV show has been lauded a number of time for its feminist take on some things, too.
These didn't stand in a vacuum, to be sure -- I certainly saw some things in the books that were old and tired tropes that I consider not so great. But in the balance, I found the books encouraging in their depictions of gender stuff.
What did you see that was either empowering or problematic in the books? I'd love to see others' thoughts.
Some of the good that I saw: lots of examples of affirmative consent sought and enthusiastically given; strong, smart, competent woman carries right on being strong, smart and competent even though people don't believe it's possible and even call her a witch; bond between mother and child was given its due as very important without allowing a woman to be defined only or primarily in her role as mother; clear recognition that victimization by sexual violence does not make women less desirable or 'pure' somehow or men less masculine; sex workers who aren't just flat characters; lots of others!
The bad: tiresome repetition of clueless-woman-needs-rescuing to start out; I found the Geilis character troubling in some ways; others
The ugly: repetition of the 'once a man starts he can't stop' myth (ugh); the (view spoiler)[ killing off of the Jane character to avoid the complications of a 'respectable' man in love with a whore (hide spoiler)]; ???
What did you see that was good, bad, or ugly?