A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
Crackpottery - This is where we just throw it all out there.
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Stephen
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Apr 08, 2014 10:19AM
Yes, I am confused by Jaqen role in the citadel. Is Jaqen in league with or in opposition to Marwyn? Is he in the role of an assassin or are the faceless men more than just killers for pay? In fact there are so many questions about Jaqen I doubt they will ever be answered in the books. Why was Jaqen in the deepest cells with Rorge & Biter? Why were Biter & Rorge afraid of Jaqen?
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The Faceless Men are definitely up to something more than just killing for money, and Arya is probably going to get involved, that's why GRRM has sent her to Braavos. I personally think Varys is connected with the Faceless Men, that would explain his talent for disguise. There are other links too. The FM started off with "freeing" slaves, and Varys was sold as a slave when he was young (if I remember correctly). The only logical explanation here is that the FM (and Varys) are working to abolish slavery in Essos and restore justice to Westeros.
Well, if i'm remembering rightly, Varys helps tyrion escape and sets him on his journey to Daenerys who is freeing the slaves.
My crackpot theories are Dany and Jorah will FINALLY get together and she will fight Cersi to the death and fulfill the prophecy that was revealed to Cersi.Jamie and Brienne will get together
Arya will kill Cersi
The Starks will be reunited at the end of the sixth book.
Ashley wrote: "My crackpot theories are Dany and Jorah will FINALLY get together and she will fight Cersi to the death and fulfill the prophecy that was revealed to Cersi.Jamie and Brienne will get together
Ar..."
Perfect.
Ashley wrote: "My crackpot theories are Dany and Jorah will FINALLY get together and she will fight Cersi to the death and fulfill the prophecy that was revealed to Cersi.Jamie and Brienne will get together
Ar..."
Didn't the prophecy refer to her being killed by a brother or something like that? If yes then she would of course assume it to be Tyrion but the curve ball could be having Jamie either kill her or be responsible for her death. What if Jamie is the one who fights against her champion in her trial by justice?
The Valanquor (spelling ??) in the prophecy was a younger brother that will kill her but a beautiful younger Queen will take all that she has or replace her I can't remember the exact words....
If Jaime and cersi are really the mad king's then the younger more beautiful queen "Dany" could be brought by her younger brother Tyrion.Not something I buy though.
I wonder if the 'hair net' is a red herring...In other words while we all look at what the right hand is doing-no-one is noticing what the left hand is doing.Joffrey begins to choke when he eats his Uncle Tyrions pie with the lemon cream on top. Nearing his end Joff 'kofs points to the pie' and to Tyrion. Cersei then names Tyrion as the poisoner.
Tywin Lannister sits in his chair and does absolutely nothing while Joff chokes to death. His only movement is when he tells Cersei that Joff is dead. Odd. Very odd behaviour from Tywin. Cersei then names Tyrion as the poisoner. Tywin simply takes her word and there is no investigation as to who poisoned the king(and a Lannister at that!). In every other instance Tywin has disregarded Cersei and dismissed her as irrelevent, but now he believes her. Odd. Very odd.
Though he despises his son, Tywin knows Tyrion is far too intelligent to try and poison Joff at the boy kings wedding. This begs the question if Tyrion didn't do it then who did? It is a question that Tywin doesn't ask as he allows Tyrion to stand trial for murder. He wants a speedy resolution to a sticky problem.
There have been two attempts on Tyrions life. Tyrion is accused of sending an assassin to kill Bran. If not for Bronn he might've died-Who sent the assassin? Then at the battle of Blackwater Ser Mandon Moore almost kills him. Who gave that order?
Then Joffrey eats Tyrions pie and dies. Who poisoned that pie?
More importantly does Tywin know and hence is very happy to allow Tyrion to take the fall for somebody else? Someone who Tywin feels is no threat to any other Lannister.
I just think in re-reading that scene, something is not quite right...And it is Tywin's inaction that speaks volumes.
N wrote: "The Valanquor (spelling ??) in the prophecy was a younger brother that will kill her but a beautiful younger Queen will take all that she has or replace her I can't remember the exact words...."Jamie is the younger. Even though they are twins, she was born first:-)
N wrote: "The Valanquor (spelling ??) in the prophecy was a younger brother that will kill her but a beautiful younger Queen will take all that she has or replace her I can't remember the exact words...."The younger queen could refer to Margery or Daenerys. I hope the latter:-) I want to see her on the iron throne with Ser Jorah at her side, maybe not as king but her strong right arm.
Rebecca wrote: "I wonder if the 'hair net' is a red herring...In other words while we all look at what the right hand is doing-no-one is noticing what the left hand is doing.Joffrey begins to choke when he eats ..."
You imply but don't actually say that Cersei and Tywin planned the murder? she could certainly control Tomen better than Joff but didn't the guy who helped Sansa escape admit that he did it?
@Rebecca @Lyndsey-ellen - I agree the path that leads us to Little finger/Sir Dontos/Lady Grandma (forgot her name) may be 'obviously written' and I do agree Tywin's reaction was odd plus we have the Shae in his bed/turning evidence against Tyrion and it's all odd BUT what if it was a double double cross and Varys put her in the bed and told her Tyrion was waiting for her.... then he has gotten rid of Tywin, Tyrion, Joffery and The Uncle Lannister (who's name also escapes me it's been a while) maybe Varys is the man in control after all? He could even be a faceless man (someone's theory earlier not mine) and have lead Littlefinger into schemes he thought was his idea whilst disguised. Maybe GRRM will finish the book before I die.....
N wrote: "@Rebecca @Lyndsey-ellen - I agree the path that leads us to Little finger/Sir Dontos/Lady Grandma (forgot her name) may be 'obviously written' and I do agree Tywin's reaction was odd plus we have t..."I think Shae was surprised when Tyrion turned up instead of Tyson. Also, Uncle Kevan Lannister wasn't gotten rid of. He's still about and becomes the new Hand when Cersei is disgraced.
Correction, the new regent while Mace Tyrell becomes Hand.
Erm spoiler for the last book if you haven't read it and I can't do the hide text thing from my phone but------------------------------- don't read furtherUncle Kevan is dead by Varys hand right?
N wrote: "maybe Varys is the man in control after all?"I definitely think Varys is the one in control here. He wants to bring back the Targaryens to the throne, and through the events surrounding Joffrey's death, quite a few of the people who could have stood against Aegon/Dany are removed. I also think Varys, with his mantra "I serve the realm" is doing exactly that. He probably knows that the realm needs dragons th face the Others, so he is plotting to bring the dragons back.
Evidence supporting this theory:
1. Varys is sending good people to the Wall (Gendry, and Ned, if Joffrey hadn't interfered). He knows of the threat the Night's Watch is facing.
2. He is working with Illyrio, who gave Dany the dragon eggs.
3. Illyrio gave the eggs to Dany, and he must have known they would hatch. Otherwise he wouldn't have "wasted" valuable dragon eggs on a girl whose only part in Viserys' original schemes was to be married off so that he himself could take the throne. The eggs were given to Dany because she is a Targaryen, so she could make them hatch, and because she is sane, so that she will become a good queen.
Rebecca wrote: "I wonder if the 'hair net' is a red herring...In other words while we all look at what the right hand is doing-no-one is noticing what the left hand is doing.Joffrey begins to choke when he eats ..."
Joff is murdered by a plott of Littlefinger and the queen of thorns. During the wedding, the Lady Olenna Tyrell fixes her silver net, getting the poisonous black amethyst. LF tells her that when she arrives in the Fingers or at the Eyrie (dont remember where..)
Yes, Littlefinger has had all his little secrets revealed to Sansa, which I think has put her in danger. My crackpot theory is that at some point Littlefinger will have to get back into the graces of Cercei & to do that he will disfigure and return Sansa to her. This way he will eliminate the one person who knows about all his evildoing.
Minerva wrote: "The Faceless Men are definitely up to something more than just killing for money, and Arya is probably going to get involved, that's why GRRM has sent her to Braavos. I personally think Varys is co..."My crackpottheory on why he is there: The faceless men have somehow gotten wind of the fact, that the dead men in westeros started walking again, so they sent spies over there (I don't think they undead really fit into their worldview)
N wrote: "Erm spoiler for the last book if you haven't read it and I can't do the hide text thing from my phone but------------------------------- don't read furtherUncle Kevan is dead by Varys hand right?"
I don't do spoiler alerts if the book or movie has been out long enough that people should have read it and I won't be starting now. The last book came out in 2011. I stayed away from this forum until I had read all the books. Others can do the same if they are worried about seeing stuff they don't want to.
No Kevan is not dead!
Haha, good point. "Yeah, I've just given this guy the gift of death. Unfortunately he didn't appreciate my gift, so he returned it" - definitely how to piss of an assassin cult
Stephen wrote: "Yes, Littlefinger has had all his little secrets revealed to Sansa, which I think has put her in danger. My crackpot theory is that at some point Littlefinger will have to get back into the graces ..."I don't see Cersei coming back from her humiliation that LF will need to get back into her good graces again.
Minerva wrote: "Haha, good point. "Yeah, I've just given this guy the gift of death. Unfortunately he didn't appreciate my gift, so he returned it" - definitely how to piss of an assassin cult"I really want Arya to meet up with what's his name Valour Morghulis dude!
@Lyndsey-ellen I marked it as a spoiler because I am a polite person and you didn't seem to know Kevan is dead, he is dead, shot with a crossbow by Varys and as he dies he sees Percell with his head smashed in, so in my copy of the book - definitely dead.
How bizarre. I have read to the last book but either I somehow missed that bit, unlikely, or I blanked it out. It was quite a substantial book but i'm usually quite good at remembering all the relevant points. The last bit I remember about Kevan was him becoming regent.And I am polite too, I just won't restrict my opinions on the books in order to tiptoe around people who may or may not be at the same point in the books as others or have only seen the tv show. What is a spoiler for one person is not for the next. How can anyone know if someone is on book 1, 2, 3 or further and try and avoid saying anything about events further than they have read or watched. If a book has been out as long as DWD then talking about it should not be a spoiler hence why I put no spoiler alert notice when I mentioned he became regent. I don't consider it a spoiler. A spoiler would be me reading the book fairly quickly, as I tend to, then blabbing here about the plot line before most people have probably finished it. That would be unacceptable. I didn't consider your mentioning Kevan's death as a spoiler as I must have read it and somehow forgotten (goodness knows how). Even if it was, I would consider that my fault for coming to a forum like this.
For the record, if you are a Doctor Who fan, it drives me bonkers every time I hear River Song say 'Spoilers' too.
Also, have only just noticed who they cast as Mace Tyrell. Very disappointed. He's going to be Hand eventually. Hate it when a casting choice doesn't match the picture you have in your head.
@Lyndsey-ellen there are a few people on these kind of forums who become lunatic stalkers and I've come across a couple, you could have been one so I'm always super careful I don't poke one (again). I pretty much forgot everyone's name but I remember who is dead (mostly lol) I still think Varys controls all if you stand back and see how many deaths/plans he is involved in. I watched episode 1 on Thursday night but I'd had a glass of wine and a long day at work so will have to watch it again to remember what happened (I thought they had changed Jamie so you see how I need to watch again ; D lol)
'lunatic stalkers'? Why? Yes Jamie looks totally different.
And, if you are UK based, I only just realised yesterday that Bron is good old Jerome from Robson and Jerome fame. Another obvious one I totally missed.
I always knew there was more to Varys. People that stay quiet and observe always give me that feeling as opposed to Pycell who I could tell would come to a sticky end, and indeed he did lol. Ok to everyone else, whose money is on Jamie to be responsible for Cersei's death as opposed to Tyrion?
I wouldn't trust what Littlefinger says and what better way to impress Sansa(& probably scare her) is to admit to killing her tormentor and the murderer of her father.When I re-read the moment of Joffrey's death--something just doesn't seem right. At the first read I simply thought that the Tyrells had him murdered...but would the QoT trust Littlefinger? I doubt it. But I'm sure LF knows who did it, after all, doesn't he know everything?
Now Varys can be seen as a suspect in that he has his own agenda too, but I believe he wants to put into power a person he can control-Do you think he can control and manipulate Daenary's? If he thinks that then he is a fool. So at the end of ADWD, finally Vary's begins to make his move by removing Kevan Lannister and Pycelle. Perhaps he started his move earlier at the Purple Wedding? If this is the case then maybe we will have a resolution in one of the upcoming books.....It is also the case with Cersei if she did the deed.
I think Varys serves himself....If he is all for serving the realm then why did he play on King Aerys insanity by implying that his heir Rhaegar was plotting against him? By many accounts Prince Rhaegar was admired as a good man and warrior and a strong leader--Perhaps Varys doesn't want a strong leader, but rather one who is dependent on him....He may decide to back the mummers dragon...or to try and ingratiate himself to both Dany and Aegon.
But in the relevent chapter it is Tywins inaction that puzzles me. I think he knows Tyrion didn't poison Joffrey I also think he knows who did, hence he doesn't seem worried about a poisoner on the loose.
I think Tyrion was meant to die at the Purple Wedding and not Joff....Even though Tywin despises his dwarf son he wouldn't kill him--that leaves two suspects...Cersei or Joffrey.
In the TV show when Tyrion is talking to Cersei she confirms to him that it was Joff who tried to have him killed during the battle of Blackwater and Tyrion replies to paraphrase...'he is such an idiot--it would have been simpler to poison me.'...Perhaps she took notes;) and I wonder if the producers are giving a *wink* to the viewer(especially the non-readers)towards a future big 'reveal.' Who knows?
Ps: I also read somewhere that GRRM has given the producers the go ahead to plant forshadowings in the TV version of GOT as it will conclude after the seventh and final season. I don't know if that is correct?
Agreed I don't trust little finger. Tyrion's reaction puzzles me too and to find Shae in bed with him implies that he has persuaded her to turn states evidence (for want of a better expression) with the promise of greater rewards as his mistress. I wonder if it's to do with inheritance. As Commander of the Kingsguard, I don't think Jamie can inherit Casterley Rock. Does that then make Tyrion his heir. He would hate that.
Yes he has done that. The producers went and had a chat with him so they could start foreshadowing events. Think I mentioned it in a post either here or another discussion.
Margery feeds Joff in the show but remind me if she feeds him the pie in the book??? Sansa told her and Lady Oleana that Joff was a monster and Margery barely battered an eyelid. Were they perhaps planning it themselves and this conversation with Sansa was a way for the show to foreshadow it. The producers have spoken with GRRM. He's probably told them who did. I like my theory. The only problem with Little Finger not being responsible after all is Sir Drontos turning up just before Joff died as if he new it was going to happen. Could the Tyrell's be colluding with LF? Thoughts?
In the books, it is suggested that yes, the Tyrell's colluded with Littlefinger, he secured the poison.It makes some sense, he wants Winterfell, he has the Vale, plus he always had the hots for Cat and this all conspires after the Red Wedding which I'm sure didn't impress him since she sorta died.
Also - yes Tyrion is heir to casterly rock.
I always figured Tywin went along with everything because at least with Tyrion out of the way he could have Tommen inherit.
'Sorta died! love it lol.LF is barely holding on to the Vale.
Would Tywin want to see the crown absorb Casterly Rock??? Well if Jamie cannot inherit and Tywin on the run, that would make Kevan the next male heir if we disregard Tomen as being descended in the female line. If descent can pass through females then Cersei would inherit.
I agree, his grip on the vale is definitely tentative at best.I always thought he had higher hopes for Winterfell. In my opinion I think he will try to marry Sansa, but that is just a weird gut feeling more than anything.
Technically Jaime can't inherit, I don't think he would anyway. Tyrion is the heir, but with him being a kinslayer and on the run not really going to work out.
I'm trying to remember the rules to inheritance, I know the children of the first born go before anyone else, but I'm not sure if that also applies to the children of the female child or not...*goes to wiki*
Wiki says yes, the Eldest daughter follows in line of inheritance after the youngest son and before the rest of her family. So, with Tyrion out of the picture and Jaime unable to inherit, Cersei is heir to Casterly rock, followed by her male children, then female.
Is this a SOIF wiki or a general inheritance wiki? That system is what is known as male preference primogeniture. It is the system that, until the marriage of Will and Kate, we used to have in the UK. It means that males inherit over female siblings even if older. Females only inherit if no male heirs.
I think Kevan did try to send Cersei home to Casterly Rock.
It's the ASOIAF Wiki.I think I kinda remember that too, been a while since I read the books though and DWD was my least favorite so....least remembered. LOL.
But looks like Cersei may legally be the heir, followed by Tommen, then Myrcella.
Lyndsey-ellen wrote: "Margery feeds Joff in the show but remind me if she feeds him the pie in the book??? Sansa told her and Lady Oleana that Joff was a monster and Margery barely battered an eyelid. Were they perhaps..."In the book Joff eats Tyrion's pie....Margaery stays in her seat and requests that Joffrey return to sit beside her-she doesn't feed Joff the pie.
"My Uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one handed, Joff slammed the other into Tyrions pie. 'It's ill luck not to eat the pie."
He then starts choking.
Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently....."It's kof, the pie, noth-kof pie."
I don't know why the producers deviated from the book so staying with the book, I think Cersei was trying to poison Tyrion and failed, so she accuses her brother of murdering her son along with Sansa....I also think the poison was in the lemon cream which was dolloped onto the Tyrions pie.
So in the book it looks like Cersei tried to murder Tyrion. If Tyrion was executed for Joff's murder that would make Sansa a widow....Little finger spirits her away...He doesn't love Sansa. He doesn't love Catelyn.He doesn't love Lysa. He loves Power. With many believing Sansa is the only surviving Stark--Littlefinger has a lot to gain by Tyrions death.
In the TV version, the finger is pointed at the Tyrells with some inside help.....
The book version makes more sense the TV version could go anywhere....
I don't see what Cersei gains from murdering Tyrion at this juncture. She's had ample opportunity to do so without a dramatic display and even though she has thought for literally half her life that he would kill her.With the back up from the show, it seems the viable answer is that the Queen of Thornes poisoned Joff, as is generally believed. Whether that involved much from Littlefinger or not is still hard to say.
No one said Littlefinger "loved" any of those people. Just that he wanted Cat. That is cannon. Want and Love are two separate things and want often motivates the desire for power.
Even your own synopsis here alludes to greater reasoning from Littlefinger than Cersei. Littlefinger always intended for Tyrion to recieve the blame and thus be executed. That is why he arranged for the Dwarfs to entertain at the wedding, to anger him and thus create support the conclusion he was the murderer.
I don't generally find the TV show 100 percent accurate, but they have yet to stray from major story arcs.
Lyndsey-ellen wrote: "Is this a SOIF wiki or a general inheritance wiki? That system is what is known as male preference primogeniture. It is the system that, until the marriage of Will and Kate, we used to have in th..."
When Danearys comes to claim her rightful throne, as she will i'm sure, she will gift it back to Tyrion. I would put money on it.
I actually think Littlefinger loved Cat. Ok, he may be a scheming liar, but dies that make him incapable of loving anyone. He betrayed Ned because he was jealous, but he is trying to help Sansa get the life she has always dreamt of, and I don't think he would have done that if he had only lusted for her because she looks like her mother. Also, Sansa and Littlefinger building Winterfell in the snow, that was probably the sweetest chapter in the entire series.
I think Littlefinger loved Cat as a child, he settled for Lysa and got her pregnant and then their Father got rid of him and made Lysa abort the baby. Littlefinger is looking for revenge in a 'I'm bigger and better than you now' and although lusts after Sansa he has plans to make her heir to a fortune by marriage to Lord Aryn's heir (random cousin I seem to remember??) then he will kill that heir and marry Sansa - well his plan anyway *waits to be shot down*
I thought the snow building scene was creepy! I just can't stop seeing LF as a manipulative pedo with Sansa.
Ok, I may be a bit naive, but I just want Sansa to have the happy ending she has been wishing for, and you have to agree that she has deserved it.
*Deserved a happy ending, not the creepy stuff
Minerva wrote: "I actually think Littlefinger loved Cat. Ok, he may be a scheming liar, but dies that make him incapable of loving anyone. He betrayed Ned because he was jealous, but he is trying to help Sansa get..."Agreed! I wonder what sort of person he would have turned out to be if he had married Cat. I mean I know it never would have happened as he was a nobody and she was a Tully but he might have been nicer, softer if he had.
Minerva wrote: "Ok, I may be a bit naive, but I just want Sansa to have the happy ending she has been wishing for, and you have to agree that she has deserved it."i think she did drop Tyrion in the shit though and he was nothing but nice to her.
Lyndsey-ellen wrote: "i think she did drop Tyrion in the shit though..."Poor Tyrion. Still, I can understand why she acted that way. Cersei had already betrayed her trust, Sansa had no way of knowing that Tyrion is a better person than his sister.
Tyrion had been nothing but kind and courteous to her and they seemed to have reached an understanding. He hadn't forced himself on her so what was she running away from. Watching the latest episode, I don't recall from the books Tyrion being so cruel to Shae. Can anyone remember a scene in the book where he does this?
