A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
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Why would Ned Keep Jon's (spoiler)
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Feb 01, 2014 07:00PM
If we all had the same opinion then the world would be very boring! But fictional women have chosen love over family before, I'm thinking Romeo and Juliet for one example. I also really can't see Ned marrying Cat as a dutiful son and then having an affair. The character is written with too much 'pride before self' and doing what is right. It's all just hearsay and conjecture until GRRM decides to enlighten us anyway, who knows what he will do?
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The people asking about Benjen seem to forget that Benjen was younger than Lyanna and Ned. Benjen's the baby of that generation, and was still a very young teen during Robert's Rebellion--which means he probably was the "Stark in Winterfell" while the war was going on, which makes Ned returning home with his illegitimate son unlikely as last I checked it took more than 9 months for the Rebellion to occur. Benjen's in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Dionna wrote: "Because Catelyn would have sold Jon out to Robert in order to protect HER children."Family, Duty, Honor. I can see a possible twisting of those words for her, but when she married Ned his family became her family.
Honestly, I always thought that IF Jon Snow were ever not what Ned said he was, then Ned was doing it out of some sense of protecting his entire family. Consider it would be considered treason by Robert if Ned were harboring a potential Targaryeon claimant (and we know from ancient Targaryeon law from the Dance of Dragons' period--that Targaryeon boy bastards inherit after the true born sons of the royal line have died out but before any and all of the true born girls--as that's why the Blackfyre Rebellion happened--too many Targaryeon bastards, just like Edward III's progeny).
So if shit ever hit the fan and Robert found out about Jon, in this situation, Ned can honestly say that he was the only one to ever know the truth and committed treason (I'd imagine Ned would keep Howland's name out of it if he ever got caught)--thus his wife and his children had no knowledge of what was occurring and could be spared Robert's wrath. Ned would know that his life would be forfeit at that point--as well as Jon's--and he'd rather make sure his family is protected in that situation. And Robert would at the very least exile Ned or send him to the wall for this "betrayal" and hiding "Dragonspawn"--and if he's feeling rather furious, potentially behead him for treason.
We know that when push comes to shove, Ned will put aside his honor and lie to protect those whom he loves. Why should this situation be much different?
Speaking from a literary standpoint, the whole Jon Snow growing-up situation smacks far too much of the the whole fairy tale "wicked stepmother" scenario for my liking. I mean, think about it, Catelyn is about the most realistic portrayal of a "wicked stepmother" trope you're likely to find--and it was I must say rather cleverly disguised. But if she's the origin of the Wicked Stepmother of our song, what does that make Jon? Some kind of diamond in the rough figure. Even if he doesn't turn out to be a Targ, he's already had a tremendous turn around in his character rising to Lord Commander rather unbelievably quickly.
We know Martin made a writing career in writing Soap Operas before writing A Song of Ice and Fire--the whole "gasp! He's not really your brother, but your cousin!" scenario fits the otherwise melodramatic and soap opera tropes that Martin often draws upon. So that's one point in its favor, though I admit a rather weak one.
Just my thoughts.
I think that you all overlook one very important thing... Eddard only ever told Jon one thing... that he (Ned) was his father and Jon a bastard born out of wedlock.While thinking that Ned would lie and keep a secret to keep a promise to his sister dead of almost two decades has a certain ring of truth and sounds to a good degree "noble" and thus like something Ned could intend to do, thinking that "nobody" would include the child and he would lie to the boy even when sending him off to the wall (for his safety probably as we could see Winterfell was not really that secure without its main forces in garrison) is a whole other can of worms and does not fit to my inner image of the Lord Stark at all.
And of course that would probably be the most surprising "twist" GRRM could bring up at this time, that there never was anything wrong said about the affair and all the guessing and all the theories were just idle speculation ;) and it would fit another theme of the books quite well... history repeats itself and like father like son, Robb also had an affair, but handled it even worse... It's also tragic enough to fit in with the rest of all the fubar'ed lifestories that are strewn in throughout all the series, which makes it at least possible, if not likely or likelier than other ideas about the question.
I think the answer's simple. Lyanna made Ned promise her he wouldn't tell anyone and we know how stanched Ned is when it comes to his honor.
I agree Tyler and said it farther down - there are too many references to 'bed of blood' 'promise me Ned' and so forth for it not to be Lyanna's baby. Maybe it's a massive red herring but why put them there if it's not a cookie trail? Brilliant as it is we are talking about a book here not real life, Ned is Proud and puts that before everything like a badge of honor.
Sorry, but Jon's birthright is also a debt of honor and if Ned can stand up to his queen because it's right, he can also ignore Lyanna's wish for telling the one person with a right to know the truth. It's a lose-lose situations in terms of honor, he'll feel like having acted against his honor's demands in any case, but when push comes to shove Jon would deserve it more to know than Lyanna would deserve to keep the promise.
Gordon wrote: "I think Ambers comment awhile back about Benjen & Jon being father & son, I thought that was a great idea that is just like GRRM to throw a curve ball. I don't think Ned would pretend he has a ba..."
Benjen was 12 or 13 years old. Really?
Ned did say 'we will talk about your Mother' when Jon left gor the wall (that may have been a TV add in so don't quote me). Also he was shown to word his promises in such a way as to ensure he could keep them (changing Robert's will). Also as the original post says 'why keep it a secret' if it was just an affair? He had and was continuing to humiliate Cat with talk of his baatard, Little Finger claims Sansa as his 'natural child' because 'no one would dare to question a man about a natural child'. Also if he is Ned and some random woman's what is the point of the whole thing? Why make out a big deal on his barstard status? What else would the 'promise me Ned' promise be?Seriously HURRY UP Winds of Winter I'm going INSANE waiting for answers!! :)
Loving the preview - can't wait for all of Tyrion's scenes this season. He might be in some trouble this time around. ;)
Okay, why did Ned not tell anyone. Because Robert Baratheon would have killed Jon or someone close to Robert to curry his good will. I see 3 possible birthmothers, but the R+L=JS is still the strongest. For Eddard Stark to father a bastard is totally out of character. Ned did things for honor that led to his death. As for not telling Cat, how best to hide Jon true parentage by her utter distain for Jon. If she had acted any different, questions would have been raised. Put me in the camp of the R+L=JS, it makes the most sense, but it is only a opinion, not anything that actually has to happen. Last but not least. Arya looked like Jon. Ned tells Arya she looks like Lyanna. Therefore Jon looks like Lyanna. We will find out when Howland Reed shows up because he is the knower of all things mysterious.
Exactly what I think Stephen, exactly!
Chas, you did mention that Catelyn was like the evil stepmother. Well it's like this: Jon SNOW= SNOW White.
Maybe Jon is Roberts bastard,
The R+L story makes some sense because think of the title of the series "A Song of Ice and Fire". Ice is clearly Lyanna and it is said that Rhaegar played the harp. Robert raised his rebellion because Rhaegar took Lyanna creating the whole saga of events that followed. Also, if Jon Snow has some big role, he could just be the song (e.g. if you saves Westeros).
Yay, Jon is water now (ice and fire mixed together = water). That is if R+L=J
