A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
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A Game of Thrones
Why would Ned Keep Jon's (spoiler)
Teodora wrote: "I think that it's quite clear why Ned keep Jon's parentage a secret. As son of Rhaegar he will have the right to the throne, so it is surely something that he should hide, even from his wife, becau..."There weren't any Targaryen girls. Rhaella, King Aerys' wife, was the only Targaryen female and Ned would not have had access to her. Baby Rhaenys is out of the question.
As son of Rhaegar he will have the right to the throne, so it is surely something that he should hideActually I don't think he would have a right to the throne without Legitimization, which at this point, would have had to come from Robert. Even if he is Lyanna and Rhaegars son, he's still a bastard.
There is no mention of a record that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married and there are also no known witnesses to such an event.
Vyserys would still have more right to the throne than Jon and should (concievably) be the main focus of Robert. Who honestly, from what I read, hardly showed and interest in him until he started being all noisy with the Dothraki.
In the same time, we know that Lyana was in Dorne, with Rheagar
Actually we know that Lyanna was in Dorne without Rhaegar. We assume she was in Dorne with him for a time, but nothing in the books actually says that to my rememberence. She was in Dorne with Arthur Dayne, Oswald Whent, and Gerold Hightower.
Brandom is surely not Jon's father because, as I already said, he died to soon.
Actually this isn't necessarily correct. Jon was concieved within 1 to 3 months of the start of the war. Meaning, that he could have been conceived before Brandon died as there is (obviously) a waiting period before one finds out they are pregnant.
All GRRM has said is that Brandon died before he had any sons, Jon was born after his death, so even if he were his son, this would still be a true statement.
He did not have time to go to Dorne and father a child
this would be unneccessary, no matter who the parents are, Jon probably wasn't concieved in Dorne, only born there. People can still move when pregnant...
I can't find a reason for Ned to keep this hidden.
I'm still voting for Brandon and Lyanna incest. But I require a reread to pull some quotes. From where I'm standing right now, it seems possible, but at the same time, it's been made clear to me I need the textual back up to convince anyone.
because it's pretty clear that she and Rheagar were in love
Actually thats pretty conflicted in the books from what I read. The whole war happened because a lot of people didn't think Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar at all.
I'm not saying L+R isn't a good theory, I'm just saying it's not the ultimate end all answer in my opinion.To be honest, it's just as likely Arthur Dayne is the father, he's with Lyanna more than Rhaegar.
The number one piece of support for the Lyanna and Rhaegar theory, in my opinion is this dialogue:
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest Brandon and Lyanna incest. Once Jaime/Cersei incest was seen everyone else must be incestuous as well and that is not true. Ned wouldn't have been so appalled at Jaime and Cersei if Jon were a product of incest. Also, it doesn't explain why Bloodraven, through Raven, calls Jon king. If Jon is an incest baby, exactly what is he king of? This is just another entry for the crackpot theories thread, which is a great read. If, and when GRRM pens it, I will admit that I was wrong. Until then, I cannot entertain it.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest Brandon and Lyanna incest. Once Jaime/Cersei incest was seen everyone else must be incestuous as well and that is not trueEh, thats why I said I require a reread to see if I can make anything of it with textual support. No one ever said everyone was comitting incest, it's just shown, through Jaime and Cersei, that it's possible to conduct such a relationship, keep it secret, and that though it is culturally frowned upon, that doesn't stop it from happening.
Ned wouldn't have been so appalled at Jaime and Cersei if Jon were a product of incest.
I think Ned's reaction is pretty subjective. He doesn't seem all that appalled to me. He tries to save all of them from Robert's wrath which is obviously a huge risk that ends up getting him killed. What he seemed to dislike in my opinion was mostly that they had lied to Robert, intended to seat a bastard on the throne, and that Jaime was breaking his vows as a kingsgaurdsmen again.
If Jon is an incest baby, exactly what is he king of?
Winter. The Starks are known as the King's of Winter throughout the story and it is a title that is much longer lived than King of the Iron Throne.
Amber wrote: "There is absolutely nothing to suggest Brandon and Lyanna incest. Once Jaime/Cersei incest was seen everyone else must be incestuous as well and that is not trueEh, thats why I said I require a re..."
He would still be a bastard, without title and claims to land. Lyanna and Brandon were not married. Bran would be the King of Winter/North, not Jon.
True, LOL!The same is true of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
So this leads us to a dilemma indeed.... *shifty eyes*
God I hate you GRRM.
Maybe Jon will be the next Night's King?
Amber wrote: "True, LOL!The same is true of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
So this leads us to a dilemma indeed.... *shifty eyes*
God I hate you GRRM.
Maybe Jon will be the next Night's King?"
Not if R&L were married. I think Stannis will become Night's King. Blue-eyed king without a shadow...
No record of there marriage, no witnesses.Gonna be hard to get past that.
Though in both cases I think Jon could be legitimized. As his parents, no matter which theory, would both be highborn. If Dany wins the thrown he's practically a shoe-in for legitimization in both theories, though I think he could probably score it from Tommen as well.
I do think Stannis would make a nice nights king, he could make as many creepy babies as he wants then. LOL!
Amber wrote: "No record of there marriage, no witnesses.Gonna be hard to get past that.
Though in both cases I think Jon could be legitimized. As his parents, no matter which theory, would both be highborn. ..."
LOL! Creepy babies...LOL!
We don't know what happened while R&L were away, and at some point, there were three members of the Kings Guard, witnesses, and there could have been a Septon at some point. We don't know and it's frustrating! GRRM needs to write faster!!!!
Well isn't that what the Night's King was kinda up too as well?Weird parallel I never thought about...
*bleck* I need a bath.
I do wish he would write faster, but on the other hand, for some reason, I always fall in love with stories who have slow authors. So I'm kinda used it...
Plus, I think it's fun to theorize even if it is a bit pointless.
We are all masochists!
Okay, that Gendry question has been asked A LOT of times, I'm sorry but that is just one of the most MASSIVE screw ups of the show, it has led so many people astray its just sad.Gendry cannot be Cersei and Robert's child because Cersei has only given birth to three children, Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen. Cersei quite literally had an abortion when Robert impregnated her. Jaime lined it up for her. So no, it's not cannon. They just added that to the show so maybe someone would actually like Cersei for 5 seconds. LOL.
We really cannot say that it was a screw up. D&D are privy to all that GRRM knows.
Yes Dionna, I'm sure no one noticed that Cersei was pregnant to full term with a child, gave birth to it, and then had it die from some mystery illness..............No one even knew she had another pregnancy beside the three that she had, she is the queen, if she had a child die or even a fourth pregnancy, it would be common Westerosi knowledge.
Amber wrote: "Yes Dionna, I'm sure no one noticed that Cersei was pregnant to full term with a child, gave birth to it, and then had it die from some mystery illness..............No one even knew she had anoth..."
GRRM books are edited down, how do we know that it was in a chapter which was deleted and he told D&D?
It may be as simple as if she doesn't know, she can't tell someone she isn't supposed to the truth by accident.
Also, how do we know that she wasn't lying to Ned? They were the only two people privy to that conversation. This is Cersei that we are talking about. If I've learned anything from reading GRRM, you cannot be sure of anything unless you see it.
GRRM books are edited down, how do we know that it was in a chapter which was deleted and he told D&D?Also, how do we know that she wasn't lying to Ned?
Acting on this premise, I could make up anything I want and pretend it was true. It's not in the novels. No where is it even suggested that she had a fourth full term pregnancy, so the logical conclusion would be that one never occured.
Cersei is the Queen of Westeros, it would be common knowledge if she had a child who died, especially a son. There would have certainly been a large and luxurious funeral.
Not to mention there is even further evidence and confliction against this idea from the prophecy presented to Cersei by Maggy the Frog, which even if it doesn't work out to be true, Cersei explicitely believes. Suggesting that she indeed must have only given birth to three children, otherwise she would know that the woman was a crock.
Cersei:"Will the king and I have children?"
Maggy:"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
Maggy:"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."
So even though i've wanted Jamie to be the valonqar that kills Cersei reading this again I think the use of the word "hands" in the in the prophecy maybe signifigant, and ruin my hopes.or am i reading to much into it.
Holy Shit Kenneth.I never caught that.
Well, I'm kinda sad now since I really wanted Jamie to kill her too. Guess that was a bit of wishful thinking. I do consider that significant.
Hmmmmm. What does that mean you think? Tyrion would be a bit too obvious in my opinion, so I'd been routing for Jaime or maybe for Arya to show up with a boys face.
There is always Tommen too I guess. Lots of little brothers, hard to narrow that one down. Aegon's got a stake in killing Cersei too and he's a Little Brother as well. Even Rickon is kinda expected to be making an apperance soon, WAHHHHHHH!!!!
Really Awesome observation though.
If Tommen is going to die before Cersei, how could he be the Valonqar?
Ah ha! Good point.Impossible!
Well, unless Arya steals Tommen's face.
O.o, I could go for that, that'd be uber-creepy.
Well, Jamie has that golden hand of his....it would still fit the prophecy. The prophetess never specified ;P
I am in the Rhaegar and Lyanna camp! I think she asked Ned to 'promise me' to keep the baby safe - Robert would have killed the baby thinking or knowing it was a child from rape (I'm not convinced it wasn't love btw) and later if he would have found out hw would have killed the man and maybe Ned for keeping it from him. Explains why he never confided in Cat (didn't trust her at first and afraid for her later).
I think there a couple of theories. The one I want is that Jon is Roberts son, just too give Robert a break. He truly loved Lyanna, and them having a son would mean Jon could be heir. My other two are these.Jon is Ned's son. A son he had with Ashara Dayne, who is now with Aegon. This would give the chance of Jon meeting his mother. You could even have that the babies of Jon and Aegon was swapped so Ashara's son would be brought up safe in Winterfell, and would be a reason Ned never told Cat. The other idea...Aerys. He raped her at the tourney and Rhaegar took her away from the Starks.
@Alex... Your Aerys theory makes sense especially if Tyrion is the other rider as it is thought he is also a child of Aerys making all 3 dragon riders siblings.
Kenneth wrote: "So even though i've wanted Jamie to be the valonqar that kills Cersei reading this again I think the use of the word "hands" in the in the prophecy maybe signifigant, and ruin my hopes.or am i re..."
Hmmmm good spotting Ken>>Start re-thinking...This could take a LONG time.....LOL
If Jon is the bastard son of Rheagar then wouldn't that have put him at risk of being murdered by Robert? Considering he wanted to wipe the realm of any Targaryen bloodline? Perhaps Ned was protecting Jon and considering he barely knew Catelyn when they were married he probably didn't know if he could trust her with this sort of info.
But couldn't Ned just say that Jon was Lyanna's son (if L+R=J is true) but say he doesn't know who the father is? That way Jon wouldn't be in danger from Robert. Maybe Ned promised Lyanna something else. Most likely the Stark who is Jon's parent is Brandon and Ned didn't tell Catelyn because he didn't want her to be upset that Brandon slept with another women. Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon's parents probably isn't true.
Yasmin wrote: "But couldn't Ned just say that Jon was Lyanna's son (if L+R=J is true) but say he doesn't know who the father is? That way Jon wouldn't be in danger from Robert. Maybe Ned promised Lyanna something..."It seems a strange thing to be silent about especially as Ned probably witnessed Cats harsh attitude to what she thought 'his bastard son.' All this guilt that plagued Ned, even his dreams filled him with guilt. Why all this amount of guilt if Brandon is the father?
Ned may have been an honourable man but he's a masochist if he put himself through all this guilt and hiding Jon's parentage-- because his brother had a romp with some tavern wench? It doesn't make sense.
What then is the promise he made to Lyanna? There was a reason he hid Jon's identity even from the boy himself! The truth was too dangerous for any of them to know, including Jon. There is also Jon's dream where he goes down into the Winterfell crypts and hears the Stark ancestors telling him he does not belong and to get out. I should think the dead Starks would mind greatly if they sensed Jon's Targaryen blood. Both Ned's father and brother were murdered by the mad king.
There is more to Jon Snow than meets the eye.
Reading between the lines (in the books anyway) Ned and the Stark children were unaware of Cat's treatment of Jon. He told Robb 'Your lady Mother was kind' when in fact she had all but thrown him out of Bran's sickroom.
I kind of see it this way--If Cat had always shown kindness to Jon then why bring the subject up? No-one asks if Cat is kind to Robb or Sansa etc, mainly because it is obvious she loves her children.I think in the case of Ned it is deliberate ignorance and with Robb, perhaps he asks to placate his own guilt over his mother's unkindness....I think they know, but it is not something they discuss and Jon doesn't want to make anyone, uncomfortable.
Now I must go.....
Oh I love Jon, thw stubborn proud sod :)
OK if Jon is not Lyanna and Rhaegar son then who is the third Targaryen?.. because "the dragon has three heads" ... you know ;)
Maybe Moonboy for all I know.
Baratheon's are Targaryen's by extension. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. It's part of why his bid for the throne was supported.
therefore Gendry could be a rider or Edric or Mya or me at this rate ; p lol.
therefore Gendry could be a rider or Edric or Mya or me at this rate ; p lol.
Stela wrote: "OK if Jon is not Lyanna and Rhaegar son then who is the third Targaryen?.. because "the dragon has three heads" ... you know ;)"Tyrion? I somewhere read the wild theorie that mad Aerys raped his mother (forgot her name) and he was the outcome, but I doubt that fits the timeline. Anyhow that's another discusion altogether.
Amber wrote: "Baratheon's are Targaryen's by extension.
Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. It's part of why his bid for the throne was supported."
That was just a flimsy pretext to start a war, he would have done it even without a targaeryen nana and his hatred for everything targaeryen (which would also include a certain targaeryen bastard, who is the topic of this thread) clearly shows how much he cares about his heritage. He was supported cause Aerys was mad.
Does anyone else think Jon could be Robert and Lyanna's?
That would be lame.
no I really think Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and ran off together the 'rape/abduction' story came in after to save Roberts shame/guilt. Many characters have talked about Rhaegar's gentle nature and Lyanna's wilful nature - I'm definitely R+L=Jon
I think Ambers comment awhile back about Benjen & Jon being father & son, I thought that was a great idea that is just like GRRM to throw a curve ball. I don't think Ned would pretend he has a bastard, & I think Jon has a large part in the ending of this book, being lord commander at such a young day is foreshadowing greatness IMO.. I like that idea plus I also think Jon is likely to be major force with 'the black or watchers of the wall.. Fo'sho
I have thought the same thing. Maybe it was Lyana made him swear not to tell anyone? Luv_trinity wrote: "Why would Ned Keep Jon's parentage a secret from his wife Catelyn ?
I can understand Ned keeping Jon's parentage a secret from King Robert,and I'm on board with him keeping it a secret from ever..."
The Rhaegar/Lyanna plot seems to...straight forward. If Rhaegar was supposed to be kind, and Lyanna loved her family and were so in love, that neither of them went to the King, Starks or anyone else to say they was in love? Lyanna would have loved the Targaryens after he they killed her Dad, older brother and would have killed her other brother and her fiance? Also Rhaeger was getting obessed with this prophecy, couldn't he have gone crazy? Also he ran of to Dorne with Lyanna. To his in-laws kingdom. What reason would Dorne have to protect a man that dishonored his wife and left her to run off with his supposed mistress? And if this theory of the three dragons, Danerys, and Tyrion why would it be Jon? Two would be Aerys' kids, and the other Rhaeger's? I go back to be main non-Ned father theory, Aerys raped Lyanna, and Jon is his son, and Rhaeger took her away to protect her from him, due to this prophecy stuff. Other than that..Jon is Ned's son with Ashara Dayne, while Lyanna son is Aeagon, who Ashara has looked after all these years, just so Jon can finally meet his mother. Ned kept the secret to keep his nephew safe, and he felt ashamed for both what he did to both Catleyn and Ashara.
That was really hard to read.
Kat wrote: "Does anyone else think Jon could be Robert and Lyanna's?"I don't think Ned would keep a secret like that from Robert. It's pointless. Robert would have loved Jon if he was born of him and Lyanna.
Hmmmm....I shall have to ponder this for awhile.....it's a distinct possibility....and it makes sense, unlike my wild theory that Tywain was Jon's father( I just threw that out there to drive people crazy!) (ALTHOUGH I wouldn't put it past him) but your theory is far better, and much more rational.