The Sword and Laser discussion
Is it piracy if I already payed for it?
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P. Aaron wrote: "For those arguing "piracy isn't theft because it doesn't steal a physical object," a hypothetical:If I come over to your house when you're not there and break in, watch your tv, sleep in your bed..."
You're comparing Apples and Giraffes here... totally unrelated to the OP.
I'll jump on the "It's illegal but in my opinion not immoral" bandwagon.
I hope one day paperback books can get with the 21st century and come with ebook downloads just like how most blu-rays/dvds/cds now come with downloads. That would solve the issue for MANY booklovers out there.
Just had to ask. You were giving all the facts but never you're opinion.
Timm wrote: "I'm a writer. And if someone came to me and said, "Hey, I've got this invention that's going to make every book ever written available to every person in the world instantly for free," I sincerely hope that my first thought wouldn't be "Well how am I supposed to get paid?" I certainly wouldn't accuse them of not liking books as much as I do; on the contrary, they must LOVE books, to be willing to work so hard to provide them to everyone. After all, isn't that why people write? To share their ideas with as many people as possible?"And if you want to give your work away you can. You have that right. You can also release it under a license that gives people broad but not unlimited rights (for example, the right to download and distribute your book but not to resell it or perform derivative works).
What people - including you - don't have the right to do is to make that decision for others, to take someone else's work and give it away.
The OP asks a vague question... is it piracy? Let's be specific... is it illegal? In the US, yes. Unequivocally. It's a violation of copyright and hence illegal.
Is it unethical? If you bought the work in question in another format... eh, probably not. If you didn't buy the work, yes, it's unethical. You're taking something that the creator is offering for a given price and reaping the value of it without compensating them. What part of that is ethical?
Oh and the 'making copies doesn't deprive others' argument sounds good but is just a steaming pile. Again, you get value from the book. Pay for that value. No one is paying for the artifact... a paper book, ebook file, CD, etc are all just ways of getting your the book, music, movie. You want the words in the book, the music on the CD, the movie on the DVD. When it's electronic, you don't care about the file you download, you want the words, music or video in the file. That has value to you (if it didn't, you wouldn't want it). So, if you value it, why don't you want to compensate the author?
Dirk wrote: "Just had to ask. You were giving all the facts but never you're opinion."I also think its immoral to pirate it if you do not, I for one buy ebooks, though I do lie about my country sometimes when I buy them which is technically breaking copyright too.
I have no qualms about it. but i also have no qualms about downloading movies, music and changing my IP address so i can get american netflix/hulu.I am sure it would be nice to pay for everything but sometimes we just don't have that kind of money.
Kp wrote: "I have no qualms about it. but i also have no qualms about downloading movies, music and changing my IP address so i can get american netflix/hulu.I am sure it would be nice to pay for everything..."
I'm sure you're probably a very nice person Kp but that last sentence really pisses me off. Yes, it would be nice to pay for everything and no, we don't all have that kind of money. You know what we're supposed to do then? Be an adult member of society and don't take what you can't pay for! If you want something, you get a job and save up and pay for it or you do without. I don't know why so many people feel entitled to whatever they want for free.
Kp wrote: "I have no qualms about it. but i also have no qualms about downloading movies, music and changing my IP address so i can get american netflix/hulu.I am sure it would be nice to pay for everything..."
Then DO WITHOUT.
People like you are why I don't respect pirates. You're thieves who cloak yourselves in language about free culture. YOu don't give a crap about the people who create things, you're just a cheap SOB who steals because you can.
Phil wrote: " Be an adult member of society"Well now that i am not going to school and have a job in which i can buy all this stuff I do buy it. When every cent I made went to paying bills, keeping a roof over my head and not starving with nothing left over for such trivial things like movies, tv and books? it becomes quite easy to justify things. So would I feel bad downloading a book i already bought when I don't have the spare cash to buy a new verson? not really. should the poster consider a library? sure
Rick wrote: Then DO WITHOUT. ."It is a lot harder to "do without" than some of you might think. come talk to me when you've "done without" for six years.
Gee Rick, I beat you by 5 minutes. I wonder if you're old enough, like me, to have heard stories from your parents about living through the depression.
Rick wrote: "People like you are why I don't respect pirates. You're thieves who cloak yourselves in language about free culture. YOu don't give a crap about the people who create things, you're just a cheap SOB who steals because you can. ."
No need for personal insults, bud.
No need for personal insults, bud.
Ala wrote: "Rick wrote: "People like you are why I don't respect pirates. You're thieves who cloak yourselves in language about free culture. YOu don't give a crap about the people who create things, you're ju..."Its alright Ala, I take no offense to his insults. he judges me based on less than a twitter post of my life. he knows nothing of what I have paid for and what I haven't. Let alone my thoughts on "free culture"
What was the main difference between going to the library and reading the book there and downloading a pirate copy and reading it at home? I've done both and it felt differently, why?
Kp wrote: "I have no qualms about it. but i also have no qualms about downloading movies, music and changing my IP address so i can get american netflix/hulu.I am sure it would be nice to pay for everything..."
Although I understand the reasoning behind that statement, I think it was an irresponsible way of saying it.
For example: I have no problem with a college student that pirates, especially if they pirate literature.
But as soon as you start working, one should be more responsible. If you are so poor, why do you even have internet? (where I come from, fast internet doesn't come cheap.)
Ender wrote: "What was the main difference between going to the library and reading the book there and downloading a pirate copy and reading it at home? I've done both and it felt differently, why?"
That is very good question.
Maybe it felt different because the spelling mistakes in pirated books are so horrible? ;D
Richardya wrote: "...The reason cases like this will never reach a judge are threefold. 1. They would lose
2. Even the greediest author would not want you to pay twice.
3. They would look like a-holes "
Actually, it's the author that reserves the rights, not the publisher. The publisher generally only has the hard copy distribution rights in the specific jurisidiction. Both the movie and music industries have been heavy handed in pursuing pirates, and the publishing industry is set to follow suit. Last month the "For Dummies" series publisher successfully sued a pair of New York residents. Both Canada and Australia are setting up for mass anti-piracy lawsuits. Companies wouldn't be suing if they didn't believe they could win, even if they look like a-holes in process. If an author didn't want you to pay twice, why don't physical books come with a disc including ebook format and audiobook format?
No it's not. Apple sold millions of iPhone's and said that you were not permitted to jailbreak (hack) the phone. The library of congress disagreed.
That is not copyright-infringement. Taking the car analogy, it's bypassing the building in car alarm to install an after-market improvement. You aren't creating a duplicate of the copyright material, only revising how you use it; The book equivalent of doodling in the margins.
Adrian wrote: "If the movie and video game industries can include digital copies in retail releases for no extra cost, I can see no reason the book industry couldn't do it, other than out of sheer stubbornness."
Actually, it's not just stubbornness, it's about maintaining a profitable business for all involved. John Scalzi on his Whatever blog posted the breakdown of audiobook/ebook/hardback for Red Shirts and digital sales represented the majority of units and the minority of royalities.
Kp wrote: "Well now that i am not going to school and have a job in which i can buy all this stuff I do buy it. When every cent I made went to paying bills, keepin..."
This is disingenuous. You are paying for internet access, so you are making that decision of where to spend your entertainment budget. I'm also fairly certain that you would eat-out or order-in while at school, maybe even go to the bar/club at least once a term? Very few people (maybe 1 in 20) in developed countries live completely hand-to-mouth month-to-month.
Ender wrote: "What was the main difference between going to the library and reading the book there and downloading a pirate copy and reading it at home? I've done both and it felt differently, why?"
Library's pay for their books and pay for the special license to lend it. Even library ebooks, they only ever lend out a certain number at a time. The second item is that libraries are a non-profit organisation, so both the author is being paid as well as receiving greater exposure and the marketplace for the work is not being undermined.
The central question is if purchase of a physical book is the physical aspect of the item or the conceptual aspect of the item. Taking up the car analogy again, when you buy a car, you can modify it, but if you sell it you have an obligation to tell the buyer how it's been altered. However, owning the physical aspect of the vehicle does not entitle you to create a 3D CAD/CAM replica of it. If you wish to do so, you either need to do it under Fair Dealings/Use or you need to pay a separate cost for that privilege.
I really don't think we can compare digital items to physical items. If I steal a book, that person/store doesn't have it anymore. But if I pirate an ebook we both have it.
Mapleson wrote: "Library's pay for their books and pay for the special license to lend it. Even library ebooks, they only ever lend out a certain number at a time. The second item is that libraries are a non-profit organisation, so both the author is being paid as well as receiving greater exposure and the marketplace for the work is not being undermined."I see. This makes sense. I and my fellow citizens paid it in taxes, right? Then again, no matter if I went there and read it or not, the author got nothing from me or the library regarding the act of reading the book. I guess one should actually borrow the books when going to a library, not read them in there. It's kind of immoral, isn't it? Although some publications can't be borrowed and you have to read them there, justifiable exception?
Mapleson wrote (Jan 31, 2013 09:22am):You could make this argument about any sort of creative process: ... chemists don't own molecules, they only own the order the they place them relative to each other; ...
Owning fancy new molecules falls under patent law, not copyright. Biotech firms can potentially own any gene they identify and isolate; they don't even have to create them. Given enough time and money, I'm sure corporations will find a way to extend patents into the copyright model.
Personally, I operate under the reverse of this. I will download a pirated ebook and read part or all of it. If I enjoy the work, as if I'd browsed through the book at a physical store, I will buy a legitimate copy of that particular book and most often the majority of the author's remaining works. I feel this falls under Fair Use, as it's something that can be done at a library or bookstore, and my own intent is to purchase the volume, if it is acceptable.
I concur. I use libraries (first, to support them) and acquired e-books (last resort) to determine whether I like somebody enough to be included in my limited reading budget (and more limited reading storage). Once I find an author like this, I tend to acquire their entire body of work.
Aaron wrote: "Owning fancy new molecules falls under patent law, not copyright...."I somewhat blurred the line between various forms of IP, be it patents or copyrights. By molecules, I was referring to things along the lines of the four DNA bases (Guanine, Cytosine, Adenine, and Thymine) which comprise the whole of every gene patent, it's only that specific expression of their combinations that is patentable.
Richardya wrote: "Everything you said relates to pirating, we are talking about pirating a 2nd copy after you buy one copy."
It's the same thing in different degrees. The movie pirates have made a second copy after paying to view the first instance in a theater. The "For Dummies" pirates had to have originals as well. Those mass lawsuits target the producers as well as the consumers, regardless of previous purchases of physical copies. Should I be allowed to download Star Wars, just because I once bought a video cassette of it?
Richardya wrote: "The reason they do not give you a digital copy with a physical copy is because they are afraid people will then sell the physical copy"
And therein lies the whole issue. Having a free digital copy reduces the first-time sales of physical copies.
Richardya wrote: "The Apple example was given as an example of a seller attempted to limit what he sold. It was not an analogy to IP."
I get that, but the analogy does not fit as the rights the seller was attempting to retain were different then relating to pirating a previously owned item. For example, Apple would have no issue suing over running iOS on a different piece of non-Apple hardware even if had bought an Apple product previously.
Mapleson wrote: "The movie pirates have made a second copy after paying to view the first instance in a theater."Paying to watch a movie in the theater, does not imply ownership in any way. When you go to the movies, what you are paying for is a show. Specific movie, specific quality, specific timeframe, specific space. It ceases to exist once that timeframe passes.
If you buy a DVD, Blu-ray or VHS of a movie, I think you are entitled to make a copy for yourself (not redistribution) and store the originals if you want.
I would not suggest that if you buy a DVD of a movie you should be antitled to download a copy of it in a higher quality, that would be unfair, because you did not once payed to use that additional production value.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with getting a digital copy of a movie from the internet for free, that you would be able to get for yourself from your own belongings for free.
On the specific case of books. I would not suggest you should be antitled to download the digital audiobook version of a book you bought on paperback. That would undermine the work put on the production of the audiobook. That is not so with ebooks. Ebooks are the bare soul of the book you bought on paper and are the most inexpensive way to distribute a book, that's why they're cheaper, that's why I don't think this harms the author.
Mapleson wrote: "The "For Dummies" pirates had to have originals as well."
Yes but they're redistributing, and not for personal use as we have been saying.
Mapleson wrote: "Should I be allowed to download Star Wars, just because I once bought a video cassette of it?"
If you find a rip obtained from an equal quality edition you once bought. I don't see why not, unless you sold or gave away that copy you once bought.
Am I making sense?
We're not trying to rip off the authors, we're trying to enjoy their works in a more practical manner, not for free.
And, Alex, that's Brandon's right. It has nothing to do with piracy however. In one case, the creator of the work is giving permission for people to get a digitial copy if they've bought the hardcover. His IP, his copyright and so, perfectly in his power to give such permission (contract issues with publishers aside)A pirate doesn't care. They arrogate to themselves the right to decide what to take. They get value without compensating the creator and use tired arguments about how digital works can be copied without destroying the original. After all, what if Brandon had said "No, because the people who create the ebook are doing work and they should be compensated too"? Let's not pretend that simply because one author agrees with a position that it's somehow the right postion for all creators. What we really need is a way to let Sanderson deliver to the purchaser of a hardcover a free, authorized, ebook. Maybe that's even a perk for hardcover buyers.
The ethics of this are simple - if you get value, pay the creator for that value. IN a private enterprise economy, people create things and offer them for a price. Absent an auction mechanism, the market then says "Fair price, here's my money." Some people will feel that it was a deal. For others, it might be at the high limit of what they'd pay for that product. For still others it's simply too much. But I don't walk into a store and walk out with a loaf of bread for free because $4.50 is too much. I look for a cheaper loaf. If something is too expensive, buy a cheaper version. In books, borrow from the library. Those don't work for you? Then, being an ethical person, you do without that thing. Stealing it just exposes one's lack of ethics.
PS: The interesting sideeffect of Sanderson's stance is that it devalues the ebook edition. After all, if he's willing to give it away with a hardcover purchase how does he justify making it even close to the hardcover price for those of us who don't want the hardcover and buy the ebook edition in the first place? If I buy the ebook version for full price can I get a complimentary hardcover copy? If not, why not?
The Sword and Laser
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Yes actually I do, in my opinion if you have paid for the text of a book then it is morally permissible to 'pirate' a digital copy. Similarly I think it was morally permissible to rip my CDs to mp3s even though it was also illegal until quite recently. If I had a way of converting a textual book into an ebook then I would (and would still be illegal), and still consider it morally permissible.