The Sword and Laser discussion
Is it piracy if I already payed for it?
Hi, what your questioning is a problem, not only related to books, but to most kinds of media. So is it piracy? Yes! That's the legal answer, nothing to do about that.
I can see your point of view, but you gotta remember you paid for that book in paperback/hardback format, not digital. Another industry suffering from this is videogames, where in that case you actually have the same experience whether you buy a game on disk or a digital release.
The movie industry now offers some alternatives, basically you pay a few more bucks and the physic copy of the movie comes with a code to access the digital version. I imagine that would be the next natural step for books.
So that answers the 1st scenario.
2nd: In this case is all about your conscience, if you feel you're doing something wrong... wait for the next sale on e.books.
3rd: You won't be able to sell a e.book (I think), but you can buy DRM free e.books, and those you will probably be able to lend.
Timothy wrote: "Look at it this way. If I buy the hardcover does that mean I can go out and steal a copy of the paperback? No, of course not. Same thing..."Not the same... If I go steal another printed copy of the book, that would prevent someone else from buying that copy I stole. A digital copy doesn't.
Rui wrote: "Hi, what your questioning is a problem, not only related to books, but to most kinds of media. So is it piracy? Yes! That's the legal answer, nothing to do about that.
I can see your point of view..."
Just to clarify, the 3rd scenario was just there for contrast. I don't mean to sell or lend digital copies of ebooks, but I do lend printed books.
Conceptually speaking, selling a book after reading it, resembles more to piracy than acquiring a digital copy of a book I already own (for my own use).
I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation. As a consumer, you can choose which format to purchase. If you want an ebook, buy that, if you want a paperback, buy that. If you want both, pay for both. As to lending or selling books to used book stores, many authors have voiced their opinions on this. Most seem okay with it, obviously some would prefer you buy their book first hand. However, it's an accepted practice by everyone. Piracy isn't. It might be nice to get a bunch of people to agree with you that it's okay, but consensus doesn't change the fact that pirate sites are in no way sanctioned by the authors, the publishers, or the law. I do a job everyday that I am paid for. If someone came along and took a portion of my cheque, everyone would be up in arms. Why do we keep arguing that its okay to take money from authors. A few make millions, but most are putting blood sweat and tears over their books during their time away from day jobs. They deserve to be paid for their work.
In my country it is legal to download works of art from 'pirate' sites for personal use. It's illegal to provide them, though. Can changing citizenship change what is right or wrong? I'd simply decide for myself in such cases.
In my own personal moral code, I don't see any harm in doing so. And I'm not trying to get everyone to agree with me... I just want to know what you guys think.
Stealing is stealing. You paid for a specific printed copy of the book but you didn't pay for a digital copy.As for the third case, you did pay for that specific physical copy so it's yours to do with as you wish. You can keep it, trash it, sell it or lend it, just as you could with anything else you bought, like a car. What you couldn't do is copy it and then sell the copies.
The preceding is my own moral opinion which not everyone agrees with if the last 10 or 15 years of music and movie file sharing is any indication.
It is not stealing, it is copyright infringement. It is still illegal to do so but there is a quite explicit difference between the two (You do not get charged for theft if you infringe on copyright). I can if I want tediously type out the entire book and create an ebook from it and that is still copyright infringement but you cannot claim I have stolen anything and the end result is the same. In my opinion it is morally justifiable to pirate an ebook copy of a book you own as long as it is only for personal use.
Phil wrote: "Stealing is stealing. You paid for a specific printed copy of the book but you didn't pay for a digital copy.As for the third case, you did pay for that specific physical copy so it's yours to do..."
The thing is... when you "buy" an ebook... you're not really buying a digital copy. What you're buying is the right to use a copy of the published book.
There was a shift on the concept of owning a book since the ebook was introduced. I'm merely applying the same reasoning but retroactively: what I wanted to buy is a novel, not pages bound together that happen to contain a novel for the limited amount of time that the paper maintains physical fitness to allow me to get that novel from them.
Applying your reasoning, let's say you buy your digital copy and you break your ereader. Oops, sorry, you only payed for a digital copy. You have to buy another copy.
I'm not sure I'm getting my point through. I suck at writing. I hope I'm not coming through as offensive because that is not my intention.
I hear where you're coming from, but the simple answer is, until it's legal, it's illegal! Bummer to be sure, but that's how it is for the moment.When I download my e-books (Amazon) they get backed up so even if (God forbid!) my kindle dies, I still keep my books.
My problem with illegally downloading book is this, a copy you find on the net is a copy that someone has bought and that has been put out there for others to copy, so theoretically (I'm pushing it to the extreme to make the point but you see what I mean), only one person need buy the book for everybody in the world to download it, thus seriously killing the writers who write the books we love! Something needs to been done but until then even if you own a paper or audio copy of someone's work it's still illegal to download a digital version!
Legal depends on where you are and how you interpret the law. The UK seems to be looking into altering laws, for example, although in our case it appears to be only intended to cater for cross-platform compatibility between electronic editions, and won't cover paper to electronic. (BBC News article). On a moral point of view, I would like to see that if you buy a physical copy, you are permitted one electronic version for archival purposes. I don't see this happening in the near future for private use, but it does seems to be on the way for libraries the opposite way around. I've noticed a number of publishers discussing "would you pay slightly more for a paper+electronic version".
It is illegal in most countries. There is no question about that.The question is, is it immoral? My personal opinion? No it isn't. But then again, I believe in sampling before I buy the book as well and I'm pretty sure that will be looked down upon by most of you.
Timothy wrote: "Look at it this way. If I buy the hardcover does that mean I can go out and steal a copy of the paperback? No, of course not. Same thing..."The thing thats wrong with that analogy is when you pirate a book your not physically taking anything. Your not robbing someone of something they had to buy to sell your only steeling an IP. One that you have already paid to read. There isn't much difference between that and going to a library or borrowing a book from a friend instead of buying it. The only major difference is you don't have to return the book.
1. Yes piracy2. Yes Piracy
3. No. Look up "the first-sale doctrine"
Louise wrote: "If the paperback was still ok, I might be persuaded, but technically, its your own fault it got trashed and trying to argue otherwise for your own convenience is dubious. You paid for a paperback, ..."I agree. It was my fault that the book was trashed. But that's besides my point. I'm not asking the author or the publisher to give me another paperback. If permitted, I would ask to get a digital copy of the book which is both costless to deliver and access to the copyrighted material was already payed for (by the virtue that I payed for the paperback).
What I did (I confess I already downloaded the book) is not legal... But I don't feel any remorse.
I believe that when I purchased my book, I purchased the right to read that book, not just the paper it was printed on.
PS. I never finished reading it... I left it at my parents' house when I moved. I felt like Frobisher on Cloud Atlas when he couldn't find the second half of Ewing's journal.
PPS. I did buy Cloud Atlas in ebook format. Just in case you guys were wondering.
It may be illegal but not immoral. You paid for it directly once, you should be able to consume it any way you want after that (within reason of course). Accidents happen and sometimes physical things get ruined. If you paid for it in good faith, I see nothing wrong with pirating a digital copy. Another case: if you bought a physical copy because there was no ebook at the time.I'm waiting for books to be like vinyl records and when you buy a physical copy, a digital copy is included.
There'a another situation, where the ebook is available in Amazon across the world *except* in your country (the good old regional rights fiasco).There'a a particular book that I have in mind that's available in the US, it's even available in Australia (where ebook availability is notoriously bad), but not in the UK. The author has stated in his blog, that his publisher has the rights to publish it in the UK, and there's no contractual reason for it not to be there, it *should* be there, but the publisher just will not upload it into the UK store.
Now, I have every intention of buying this book, but there's simply no way for me to do it. I could download it illegally *extremely easily* and have it on my kindle in seconds. I could buy the paperback as a salve, I could send an appropriate amount of money to the author directly (or any agent/organisation he cared to name), or I could just download it on the understanding that I will buy it if/when it eventually does become available.
I don't want to steal it; I want the author to get paid, heck I'm waving the money, but I also want to read this book...
Jesús wrote: "Timothy wrote: "Look at it this way. If I buy the hardcover does that mean I can go out and steal a copy of the paperback? No, of course not. Same thing..."Not the same... If I go steal another..."
It's stealing, plain and simple. It doesn't matter that what your thinking of stealing is not a physical object. You are trying to justify to yourself that what you're thinking of doing is OK but on some level you know it's wrong, hence your questions on the subject.
It's stealing, plain and simpleNo you are wrong, it is not stealing it is copyright infringement. Stealing is a felony, copyright infringement is not.
Quote from interweb
You're talking about copyright infringement, not theft.
Theft, in plain english, is defined as the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive. Stealing is the act of theft.
Copyright infringement is not theft, although some copyright infringement is criminal. In each case the remedies are different.
Theft, stealing etc. are terms co-opted by a particular lobby for their emotional weight, but have no place in any rational debate.
The point is that digital copyright infringement is not theft, you can call it theft if you wish but that does not mean that it actually is. If you can find a single case of US law where it is established that it is then I will retract my statement.
I was trying to use tongue in cheek to get the point across that no matter how anyone argues it; theft, stealing, piracy, copyright infringement, downloading books that you have not paid for is wrong, no matter how much the Internet may want to make it so.
Also it may also come under the fair use doctrine, under which I think it is morally permissible.
I'm Canadian, so I'm not as versed in your fair use doctrine. However, I want to be part of his debate, so Zi read the summary on Wikipedia, which sites directly from the act.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
I believe that the third criteria clearly states that pirated books are illegal. There have been court cases against Universities copying licensed articles or courses, and Video Rental stores who used clips to create their own movie previews. The point the doctrine makes is that any purposeful act of taking funds or the chance to earn funds from an author is illegal.
Wait a second... what are we debating now?I see you mention theft and profit that are both non-existant in any of the scenarios I mentioned.
Here's a question, why is it morally permissible to pirate A Fighting Man of Mars put not morally permissible to pirate Swords of Mars. Both are from the same author yet one is morally wrong to copy and the other is not.Or similar question, why is it morally permissible to pirate Swords of Mars in Australia yet morally wrong to pirate Swords of Mars in the US.
This is what I found on the Hitchhikers Guide to... err... sorry, I meant Wikipedia.The copyright for this story was not renewed by December 31, 1955 in the United States and therefore is in the public domain.
Yes it is because of copyright expiration, but why does the mere fact that it is copyrighted make it morally wrong, especially when if its only copyrighted due to where you currently are in the world.Or to put it another way, how can it be that it is morally fine for me to copy one of those books but morally wrong for you to do so. (Answer: this is not a question of morality, its a question of legality)
Thurman wrote: "1. Yes piracy2. Yes Piracy
3. No. Look up "the first-sale doctrine""
Thank you for mentioning the first-sale doctrine, I wasn't aware of it's existance.
Laurel wrote: "I was trying to use tongue in cheek to get the point across that no matter how anyone argues it; theft, stealing, piracy, copyright infringement, downloading books that you have not paid for is wro..."Aha! but that's just it. I downloaded a copy of a book I already payed for. It's legally wrong, but, should it?
Would your perception of the issue differ if I said "I'll scan all my books and copy them to my tablet so I can read them everywhere" ? It's copyright infringement, it's legally wrong. Should it?
What if I want to decorate my work desk with Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns stickers? It would be copyright infringement to scan my copy of the artwork and print my stickers. Should it?
Are any of this cases theft as you put it?
First, it's not "my" perception of the issue. It's law.Secondly, I love authors. Other people buy shoes, collect baseball cards, tour football stadiums. I love books. I read a large number of authors and not one endorses pirating books in any form. Imagine the feeling an author has on the day of his or her books publication to see it being downloaded from all the pirating sites?!
Please don't be sarcastic and ask if scanning each and every page would make it better. You're trying to distract from the issue. Downloading books online from a pirate site is in no way sanctioned by copyright. Mocking my argument won't bring me around to your way of thinking.
Thirdly, I have no intention of saying to you "well in that case, go and break the law". Nor do I think that a number of you have any intention of giving up pirating. You think you should be allowed, so you're going to keep doing it. Because lets face it, I'm sure the legal system would love to have the free time to investigate and prosecute pirates, but the systems are overwhelmed.
So, I'm going to say goodnight.
Jesus? WHy are you posting here? You're not interested in people who don't agree with you so what's the point of posting and wasting everyone's time? You're one of those selfish little people who will pirate regardless of any counterargument... so shut up and do what you want but don't waste our time by pretending to care about other opinions.
Downloading books online from a pirate site is in no way sanctioned by copyright.There are books that I can pirate from a pirate site completely legally. And for you to do it would be illegal. So that is a legal issue.
The moral issue is of whether it is morally ok to do it if you have already paid for a physical copy of the book, yes it is illegal but that does not mean immoral.
Au contraire my friend Rick. People who don't agree with me are the ones I find more interesting.I ask "why" to see what your train of thoughts are, and then I will almost always ask "what if". Isn't that why we all love to read sci-fi and fantasy?
I'm not wasting anyone else's time, I'm "wasting" my own time. If you want to waste your time with me, that's up to you. I hope you are entertained.
I don't know if I'm "one of those selfish little people who will pirate regardless of any counterargument"... I mean. I am somewhat selfish, definitely not little and I'm actually holding a discussion on the boundaries of the concept of piracy.
Don't be afraid to voice your opinion. Just be prepared to defend it.
This argument reminds of a conversation in Erikson's Gardens of the Moon. Mammot is trying to inspire his nephew to a life beyond the thieve's guild. Not my personal view but I thought of it after reading here'As you know, I possess few moral qualms about your chosen profession, Crokus, since I question rights of any kind, including ownership. Even privileges demand responsibility, as I've always said, and the privilege of ownership demands that the owner be responsible for protecting his or her claim...'
David Sven wrote: "This argument reminds of a conversation in Erikson's Gardens of the Moon. Mammot is trying to inspire his nephew to a life beyond the thieve's guild. Not my personal view but I thought of it after ..."Sounds intriguing... I'll add this to my to-read list. Thanks David, beautiful excerpt.
Alex wrote: "Laurel wrote: " I read a large number of authors and not one endorses pirating books in any form"Cory Doctorow, John Anealio, Lawrence Lessig.
There are quite a few progressive authors who belie..."
Nine Inch Nails released an album under the Creative Commons License. Trent uploaded the first copy to the piratebay himself.
I think Paulo Coelho doesn't mind 'piracy'...
Jesús wrote: "Here's the deal. I bought a copy of Clive Cussler's Flood Tide a million years ago on paperback. I had it on my backpack one of those times I was running home under heavy rain.So... Personal case..."
according to US Code Title 17, sections 105-118 (Commonly known as the "Fair Use Doctrine") you may create a copy of something that you already own as an "archival copy".
Gray Area, If you scanned your book and made an epub on your comp is 100% legal, Downloading it from the internet is not a far fetch, just because you don't have the technology to scan it yourself. Just like going to a company to have it scanned for you, only difference is that the company wouldn't store the copy after.
Brandon Sanderson said on Reddit that he thought it was ok if you got the ebook if you had bought his hardcovers and when you buy a new hardcover edition you should get a link to download the ebook version as well.
If anyone argues about costs for printing, A hardcover costs about $2 to print, the rest of the cost for a book is management.
For those arguing "piracy isn't theft because it doesn't steal a physical object," a hypothetical:If I come over to your house when you're not there and break in, watch your tv, sleep in your bed, etc., then leave before you get home, is that ok? Can I take the car you've left in the driveway out for a drive as long as I return it before you notice?
Relative to the OP, let's assume I buy a car from a dealership. On the way home I get into an accident and trash it. Does that give me the right to go back to the dealership and use one of their cars for free, as long as I return it when done so I'm not stealing the whole thing?
Copying an information doesn't alter the original in any way, it doesn't make it unavailable for any time period - unlike in those comparisons. They don't work and shouldn't be used as an argument in my opinion.
Personally for me, as an author myself.If you already purchased the physical copy and wanted one digitally years later. As long as the digital copy didn't have any 'bonus' features like additional chapters or character bios.
By all means, feel free to download it. If you paid 50 dollars for a video game back in the day, and it's available digitally for 50 dollars again. It wouldn't make any sense to pay 100 dollars for a video game you already own.
Obviously, if you do decide to pirate a copy though. Don't think you can go about distributing it to your friends for free, that wouldn't be cool.
P. Aaron wrote: "If I come over to your house when you're not there and break in, watch your tv, sleep in your bed, etc., then leave before you get home, is that ok? Can I take the car you've left in the driveway out for a drive as long as I return it before you notice?"Let's homologue:
If we had a previous arrangement that you could, but you lost the key... I'd be totally fine with having you go in through the window.
On the second case, I think you'd have the right to get a digital copy of the car if you wanted one, since you already purchased the idea of the car, but lost the physical vessel.
See what I did there? :D
Richardya wrote: "Sorry but no author owns the English language. They are granted a right to own something they otherwise could not conceivably own. Think about it, all they "own" is the order they put words in."You could make this argument about any sort of creative process: painters don't own colours, the own the order and place they put them relative to each other; chemists don't own molecules, they only own the order the they place them relative to each other; inventors don't own the physical laws of the universe, the only own the way they are applied relative to each other.
Ulf wrote: "Gray Area, If you scanned your book and made an epub on your comp is 100% legal..."
This is incorrect in most jurisdictions. If you look the first page of any book, you have the copyright information with the disclaimer along the lines of: "All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reporduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form, or by any means."
That said, there is one major point that hasn't been raised on this thread and that is Fair Use. If the work is used for nonprofit educational purposes and does not effect the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work, then the argument can be made that the author has not been adversely effected and no moral or legal wrongdoing occurred.
Personally, I operate under the reverse of this. I will download a pirated ebook and read part or all of it. If I enjoy the work, as if I'd browsed through the book at a physical store, I will buy a legitimate copy of that particular book and most often the majority of the author's remaining works. I feel this falls under Fair Use, as it's something that can be done at a library or bookstore, and my own intent is to purchase the volume, if it is acceptable.
Richardya wrote: "Are you serious? If I bought my car and totaled it, and then rebuilt it myself with my metal and steel, I think I would have a right to build it to look exactly like the car i totaled. I bought the use of that tradedress. When you buy a car you don't pay for use, you pay for the car. A book is worthless except for the thoughts that you buy on the page...."Not quite, at least not legall. If you buy a car, you can't take it apart, reverse engineer it, and then use those plans to make a new car. That's IP theft, and the subject of plenty of corporate lawsuits.
I think you're buying both the 'physical representation' (whether that be the ink on paper or the electronic license) as well as the numinous ideal 'text'. It is up to the copyright holder what they're selling you. If the copyright holder declares (as Amazon just did with many albums) that if you're buying the physical representation, you're also buying the right to it in other forms, that's a determination they can make. Other authors and publishers disagree, and if they sell you a copy of somethng, they do not give you the rights to a copy in another form. I think if you purchase an object, you're agreeing to the seller's terms and definitions as to what exactly it is that they sold to you.
Interestingly, bibliographic criticism has been trying to make clear academic distinctions between the physical work and the idea-of-the-work for decades, with only partial success.
Richardya wrote: "Everyone agrees it is illegal if you copy design/IP and sell it...."I think it is also illegal if I reverse engineer the design, then build one just for my own private use to have when my original wears out. I have the rights to the car, not its design.
No it's not. Apple sold millions of iPhone's and said that you were not permitted to jailbreak (hack) the phone. The library of congress disagreed.
Library of Congress? They don't make the law. Perhaps you meant the Supreme Court?
Certainly some of these laws are going to change, be challenged, and so on as time goes by. But I don't think you can use that as a rationale for any old expansion of the fairly limited rights a consumer gets when they purchase a piece of protected material.
Certainly there are warranties and guarantees and consumer rights implicit in the sale of any product...but at present, that right does not, legally, extend to the right to download duplicate copies in the format of your choice. It may be that, say, an extension of the 'archival copy' clause might eventually allow for that kind of behavior from a consumer who has purchased a digital copy (and thus, really, purchased a license to that content rather than a physical copy of it)...but in the OP's example, the purchase of a physical copy doesn't seem to carry with it the right to a digital duplicate. This may change, eventually, as digital content outpaces physical media.
We all seem to be living under the Chinese Curse. "Interesting times."
Legality and morality are not the same, things can be immoral but legal, and moral but illegal. Its even fuzzier when things are legal here but not there (say prostitution).
P. Aaron wrote: "We all seem to be living under the Chinese Curse. "Interesting times.""I think this is the best way to describe the current climate of piracy. I'm not a fan of piracy debates where participants have a vested interest in simply justifying their getting stuff for free (as the OP has been, wrongly, I think, accused). But I'm equally against demonizing piracy outright, because that stifles debate. I would hope that anyone who read this thread carefully could at least admit that there are gray areas worth discussing when it comes to copyright law. Not as a means of "proving" that someone is right or wrong, but rather to highlight that maybe there's more to the question "What is a book?" than we typically think about.
I'm a writer. And if someone came to me and said, "Hey, I've got this invention that's going to make every book ever written available to every person in the world instantly for free," I sincerely hope that my first thought wouldn't be "Well how am I supposed to get paid?" I certainly wouldn't accuse them of not liking books as much as I do; on the contrary, they must LOVE books, to be willing to work so hard to provide them to everyone. After all, isn't that why people write? To share their ideas with as many people as possible?
The material concerns of the writer are nothing new. For as long as we've had the written word, we've had the struggling writer trying to get his works out there without also starving to death. We should do all we can to support the writers we love, and allow them to keep writing. But our ever-more-interconnected world is offering up some amazing potential that could fundamentally change the way we read, in the same way it's changing the way we listen to music and watch TV. And, personally, I want to see more of it.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Gardens of the Moon (other topics)A Fighting Man of Mars (other topics)
Swords of Mars (other topics)
So... Personal case scenario: I have a book I payed for, that I can't read. Is it piracy if I download a digital copy for my own use?
Second case scenario: What about all my other books? I wish I had them on me when on the road, but that's not practical unless they're ebooks. Would it be wrong if I download those for my own use?
And now the last case scenario: What about when we sell or lend our printed books? I mean... I've never heard of anyone sending royalties to the author of a book when they sell their own hardcovers on a garage sale, much less when lending a book.
I'd like to know what do you guys think? How about those of you who are authors?