The Malazan Fallen discussion
This topic is about
Gardens of the Moon
Group Read - Gardens of the Moon
>
GOTM - Chapter Twenty-two - NO SPOILERS
date
newest »
newest »
Yay! I had no idea how I was going to make myself wait until next week to finish!
one of the scenes in this chapter i liked is mallet and sorry, and how they're saving the other person in her head from dying. not sure how rigga is dying though? it almost looks like cotillion needed to be there to keep both of them in check?
also here we learn that quick ben holds 7 warrens. i'm not totally up to speed with the magic system (i assume i'm not supposed to be), but so far everyone seemed to have one warren, no?
so quick ben holding 7 seems rather peculiar...
Oh yeah. He's that powerful.
Hanne wrote: "one of the scenes in this chapter i liked is mallet and sorry, and how they're saving the other person in her head from dying. not sure how rigga is dying though? it almost looks like cotillion ne..."
That gets explained in the next book, but yeah, super strong and very unusual
Just into Chapter Twenty-two there is the dialog between Raest and Kruppe, and this little 'gem' is dropped by Raest--"There is Imass within you," Raest rasped. "Even the language you speak echoes their gutteral throats..."I never caught this obscure comment during earlier rereads. I definitely want to keep Raest's observation in mind as we read further in the series.
I figured that to mean that humans were children of the Imass and their language has origins in that...
Lori wrote: "I figured that to mean that humans were children of the Imass and their language has origins in that..."Lori, you may be right, but I think there's more to it than that (view spoiler)
Chris - that's why rereading this series is so delightful! I'll get things that I completely missed the first time. Or if I miss it even then y'all will clue me in. First time readers in this group certainly have an edge, due to the wonderful conversation.
Lori, Kruppe is an excellent example of one of the characters in Erikson's MBotF series that is enigmatic and trying to figure him out is like chasing a will-o-the-wisp. Kruppe is one of those characters that lives up to his moniker 'The Eel'--and I think it is clearly intentional on Erikson's part too. Too many people, at their own peril I think, tend to simply view Kruppe as a comic figure and/or comic relief within the novel (view spoiler)--and as we are learning it just ain't so! He is much, much more than that.
Mod
We find where Rallick's true loyalties lie.
I loved how Rake clears a path through the crowd.
What is Paran's deal? Raest tries to posses him, but is unable. Is this due to his freeing the hounds? Or whatever damage that has previously been done to him?
Ben and his seven warrens. No idea how that works, but total badass.
So, to recap, Mammot is possessed by the Jaghut and starts a little rumble in D'stan next to Paran, Whiskeyjack, Quick Ben, and the witch from the Cabal, Derudan. In the fray, Paran catches some wave of power from Mammot/Raest and is plucked into some netherworld with Raest,Tool,something called Azath and the Finnest. Raest possesses Paran temporarily but is unable to hold onto him because Paran is literally howling due to "Blood of a Hound! Blood no one can enslave. ". This allows him to protect the Azath long enough for it to control the Finnest. Paran is sent back to D'stan where the Jaghut has apparently been destroyed. There's a lot going on here without a foundation of how things are supposed to work.
What is the Finnest? What was the Azath?
Is Mammot no more?
There's a LOT going on here.
Then,
Mod
message 15:
by
David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow
(last edited Feb 05, 2013 02:12AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
As Kory said - the Blood of the Hound has changed Paran on top of whatever Oponn has done to him.
Hanne wrote: "not sure how rigga is dying though? it almost looks like cotillion needed to be there to keep both of them in check?"
My take on this is that Rigga was damaged when we had that hiccup where the Rope temporarily loses control of Sorry when she first lays on Kruppe and hear's the word "seer." The Rope regains control but I believe he does it by damaging the Rigga somehow.
Hanne wrote: "also here we learn that quick ben holds 7 warrens. i'm not totally up to speed with the magic system (i assume i'm not supposed to be), but so far everyone seemed to have one warren, no?"
Why Ben has multiple warrens is explained as we progress through the series.
We also learn through this battle that magic has it's limits. You can only use so much before it runs out and you need to recharge.
'Mammot recovers,' the woman said desperately. 'I have nothing left, Wizard.
Kory wrote: "What is the Finnest? What was the Azath? "
Tool explains what the Finnest is to Lorn as they are on their way to release the Jaghut
Tool swung to the Adjunct. 'The object you seek is called a Finnest. Within it is stored the Jaghut Tyrant's powers. It is perhaps best described as a self-contained Omtose Phellack Warren. He will discover it is missing once fully awakened, and will unerringly hunt it down.'
So the Jaghut Tyrant couldn't be killed so his captors stripped his powers from him by separating them into its own isolated warren. In this regard it is very much like Rakes Sword Dragnipur, which is it's own self contained Warren. Also a bit like Dr Who's Tardis might be described as a Warren of Time. Bigger on the inside.
(Is it classed as a paradox if Dr Who some how find's himself in a Malazan thread?)
So separated from his powers, the Jaghut was weakened enough for sorceries to bind him. The Empress' plan was to break those binding sorceries and then take the Finnest and run, using it as bait to lure the Jaghut towards Darujhistan.
So when Paran is hit by Mammot's magic he disappears INTO the Finnest's warren (that's how I read it).
Where he see's T'lan Imass - which I take to be Tool from this comment
When the Tyrant fled,(From the encounter In Kruppe's dream earlier in the chapter) I sought out its power.
The Imass is trying to defend what he call's an "Azath"
Quick Ben and Deluran's conversation gives us a preliminary explanation of what it is
'Azath?' Quick Ben whispered. 'Here?'
'None, I would swear,' Derudan said, her face white. 'It's said they arise—'
'Where unchained power threatens life,' the wizard finished.
So like an antibody in a magical defence system. But it's too new to fight the Finnest on its own(not too mention Rallick with his magic deadening attribute is sittin on it in the garden - so Paran helps weaken it (like a probiotic)
There is so much going on in this chapter so I'll try and to a separate more organised post
message 16:
by
Lee, High Priest of Shadow
(last edited Feb 05, 2013 02:35AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
We also learn through this battle that magic has it's limits. You can only use so much before it runs out and you need to recharge.
Sorry to correct you, oh wise one! But this isn't right.
It doesn't run out, basically the Mage runs out of energy in holding back the magic. If they allow more they risk being overwhelmed and destroyed by it. I always view the warrens with closed doors, mages have the ability to open the door a crack and let the power through. They spend energy in keeping the door only open a crack. This tires them and they have shut the door, else, kaboom.
There is plenty of magic out there, especially if you have seven doors open a crack :)
Mod
Krull has set the whole ambush up using a T'lan bonecaster (which we met earlier in one of Kruppe's dreams)
'Kruppe possesses many surprises, even unto himself.'
'I sense,' Onos T'oolan continued, 'a Bone Caster's hand in this summoning.'
'Indeed. Pran Chole of Kig Aven's clan of the Kron T'lan Imass, I believe he called himself.'
Tool is able to kill the Jaghut in the dream world but the Tyrant had a back door he prepared earlier - ie Mammot - As Rake always suspected, Mammot was subverted when he went into his coma earlier in the book.
I believe Tool from here, makes use of that bonecaster that's floating about(possibly), to have himself sent straight into the Finnest warren where he and Paran battle the manifestation.
*************************************************
Sorry meets up with the bridgeburners again. And she almost kills Kalam when he sneaks up on her. So it appears she has some "residue" from her possession by the Patron of Assassins.
I love how Hedge finally gets to blow stuff up. It appears he has modified his crossbow bolts with Moranth munitions and he takes out the Jaghut. Badass
The saboteur's eyes shone with a manic glaze that the wizard recognized, and a large, bulky arbalest was in his hands, pointed directly at Mammot.
A wordless, wailing scream came from Hedge.
And the aftermath
And then Hedge was beside them, his leather cap half blown away and flash-burns covering one side of his face
and a very healthy attitude towards mages
'He's dead, ain't he?' Hedge retorted, hurt. 'Just a smouldering hole in the ground – best way to deal with mages right?'
So why didn't the munitions blow everyone up? Apparently the explosions get sucked into any open warrens - so more like implosions.
'Moranth munitions are mundane weapons, Witch. Opened Warrens draw their explosive force
Except the Jaghut starts materialising but by now the Azath has gained the upper hand and takes the Tyrant.
'Azath edieirmarn! No! You've taken my Firnnest — but leave me! Please!'
And finally the bridgerburners twig that they are sitting on top of gas
Quick Ben stared after him. The gas? His eyes widened. 'We'll all go sky high,' he whispered. 'The whole damn city!'
message 18:
by
David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow
(last edited Feb 05, 2013 02:51AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
It doesn't run out, basically the Mage runs out of energy in holding back the magic"
You don't sound sorry at all! I never actually thought of it that way - but it makes sense. Do we learn this somewhere in this book? Or do we find this out later on? Because it appears I totally missed this insight.
Mod
Mod
The Warrens of Magic dwelt in the beyond. Find the gate and nudge it open a crack. What leaks out is yours to shape. With these words a young woman set out on the path to sorcery. Open yourself to the Warren that comes to you — that finds you. Draw forth its power – as much as your body and soul are capable of containing — but remember, when the body fails, the gate closes.
That's a brilliant insight Lee. I'm not sure I would have picked up on another read even unless you pointed it out.
Mod
Was that Tattersail at Pale where you found that.
Mod
the Omtose Phellack power writhed in a panicked effort to escape, to no avail
Think about that for a second!
The Warren of the Jaghut, massively powerful, ancient, panicking to escape! So I guess that says something about the power of the Azath then huh?
Mod
That was a memory she had from way back.
Should we call it the Sven rule that dr. who Time paradoxes will be brought up in all geek discussions of protracted length. Much like the rule (I forget the name) that Hitler will be brought up in any online argument. I like the idea as revealed in this chapter that people aren't what they seem. But in a way similar to The Prestige. People are deliberately trying to deceive you. Love it.
Mod
Well, that just goes without saying. It's not really a Sven rule unless Roland Deschain also pops his head in.
Mod
Mod
Mod
David Sven wrote: "To be realistic about these things, I am partial to anyone who has difficulty flipping the bird or giving the forks."Are you a fan of Rojer Halfgrip then?
Okay, sorry to get completely off topic andI've been extremely impressed with our general on-topic-ness so I don't want to ruin that.
I was so confused the first time I read this chapter. So many things happened, with the warren thing with the finnest (which we're still not 100% sure of but I think is right) combined with parts of Kruppe's dream, which I never had a grasp on until now. Yeah, a reread was definitely a good thing.
David Sven wrote: "And finally the bridgerburners twig that they are sitting on top of gas"This was something that didn't work for me. The Bridgeburners are supposed to be the best of the best at frontline infiltration and sabotage. They've been in this city for several weeks (I think about 3) and they're only just working this out now? That's being a bit thick lads. They've had plenty of opportunity to observe the Greyfaces and wonder where does all the blue light on every street and at every house come from.
I agree with you there, Chaz. I thought that every time one of the Bridgeburners saw a Greyface and said something to the effect of - now that should probably tell me something.Maybe we're supposed to write that off as the gods being involved? Nah, I don't think so.
I'm with you on that, Chaz. They ought to have known earlier on.
It feels like the plot needed them to not notice.If I'm being ultra-critical, and I don't really want to be because I do love this book, but if I am the B'burners didn't really achieve anything proactive in D'stan; the events with Lorn, Raest and Rake would have happened without them. At the last minute they manage to get a contract out that gets 3/4 cabal members killed but not all of them. They didn't end up sabotaging the junctions.
They did some reactive things like making some contacts with useful D'stan people and learning a lot that will be useful to Dujek and their being in D'stan allowed Cotillion/Sorry to be involved and provided a reason for Paran to get involved and they were in the right place to weaken Raest/Mammot enough for the Azath to win. But their mission wasn't primarily to be spies but to facilitate the shattering of D'stan's power structure and to create enough destruction and chaos that the city would welcome a rebel Dujek army and while this may now be the situation I don't think you can say it was achieved by the involvement of WJ's squad.
I love the B'burners so much that this is hard to say but for me it is another reason why this is the weakest book of the series. MoI is much stronger.
That was my big question on my original read, too...I kept asking 'What about the gas'? A more experienced reader reminded me that in this world, this was the ONLY city that had or used natural gas, the rest of the world did not have it. The Bridgeburners wouldn't have known its natural properties as well as those of us who grew up with it.
I'm with Chaz on this too. They are sabotage team and have been in the city for several weeks. It was just a matter of observing the greyfaces at work. During my first readthrough, it didn't bother me much as a lot of thing were happening at the same time. But now this bit of information caught my eye too and it kinda sticks out like a sore thumb.
Mod
D'stan may be unique but it is famous for the blue fire that lights up every street so there would be reason for the Bburners to ask why that is the case. It might not get picked up on by most first-timers but it bugged me first time around too.
Frankly I missed it the first time but it did bug me this time. However I knew the city this time, the Malazans are new to everything just like we were.
Chaz wrote: "It feels like the plot needed them to not notice.If I'm being ultra-critical, and I don't really want to be because I do love this book, but if I am the B'burners didn't really achieve anything p..."
I think you make some good points about the ineffectiveness of the Bridgeburners, but I think these events were quite different from their usual circumstances. Not only was this a convergence of powers, but the beginning of what is the Book of the Fallen. Not only were the odds against them with their own Empire at their throats, but also all the gods are getting involved who hadn't really been involved before.
I think Whiskeyjack and the others were so preoccupied with what happened at Pale--what it meant for them and what they were going to do about it--that they weren't at the top of their game. Because of that, I've always given them a pass for missing something that should have been obvious.
Just finished the chapter, the first thing I thought was how contrived it was for the BB's to not know about the gas until right now. The Empress leaves the destruction of D'stan to these people who can't figure something like that out. Blahh, I'll let it go because I am extremely fascinated by alot of the other stuff going on in this novel. Does anyone know why Paran was howling like a wolf? Seemed weird to me. It also seems like this Hound connection is what makes him stronger and correspondingly allow Paran to man handle Oponn in one of the previous chapters.
Thanks David for the summary, I was totally confused about what was going on with the Finnest and Azath. I hope we find out more about the Azath, I really like the idea of a magical antibody.
Mod
He didn't just howl like a hound, he attacked the Finnest with his teeth and had his physical strength supercharged -ie very houndlike.
He was changed when he touched the blood of the Hound that Rake killed earlier and it appears those changes went beyond merely having an affinity with the hounds but is rather something more physical/metaphysical.
We'll be seeing more of this down the track - and the Azath houses feature quite a lot in the series
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them).