The Malazan Fallen discussion
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Gardens of the Moon
Group Read - Gardens of the Moon
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GOTM - Chapter Twenty-One - NO SPOILERS
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hehe, but 'yay' and 'woo' is not enough he. i want some kick-ass discussion now too! :))
How about Kruppe's disguise? too funny by far!I enjoyed the cryptic conversation between he and Rake...
Hanne > I hope I'll be able to get on it tomorrow! No time tonight. :)
No problem Kat, we've got two weeks now :)
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We did not want to post threads to early :(
Lee???? That is too ironic for you to say...lolol
Can I just briefly say that I didn't really appreciate these chapters getting posted early? I feel like their presence stifled some of the discussion in chs 16-20 as the group felt like it had moved on. I also don't think that they inspired a flurry of insight and discussion of the later chapters last week as evidenced above. I propose we stick to schedule for future books.
"Shadows crowded the garden's undergrowth. Adjunct Lorn rose from her crouch and brushed the dirt from her hands. 'Find an acorn.' She smiled to herself. 'Plant it.'"Very first sentence of this chapter starts us off with this tidbit--Lorn has just planted the Finnest!
Chaz-this is always the same problem in every group. Some people get too into the book and get ahead of the schedule. They want to talk about it, but dont want to do any spoilers. If you dont put up the next chapters, they just dont post for fear of spoiling, so there just arent any easy answers.
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Yay!I totally understand the folks who can't stop reading, so I don't mind because I think not just David is reading on schedule so the conversation will pick up. At least hopefully! We'll see what happens.
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I like how despite his selfishness, Kruppe really cares. You can see it with regards to not just his friends, but his plans to take care of circle breaker for his service to the eel.
I find it amusing that Orr doesn't know who Rake is.
I love how Rake decides to second for Rallick, despite not knowing him. I loved how quickly the duel was over. The comments about the fairness of the duel, especially from Rake were great.
I feel bad for Murillio. He's feeling awfully guilty for simply serving as a distraction.
Kruppe loves the material world even tho he is of the spirit one. Gotta love a guy like that. All the pastries you can eat without consequence! I'd be in heaven.
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Very first sentence of this chapter starts us off with this tidbit--Lorn has just planted the Finnest!
"
And a bit later on we get this comment from the guard captain as he's giving instructions to our undercover bridgeburners
'Your backs will be to the garden, which has, ah, run wild of late. We don't want any guests getting lost in there, so you gently steer them back. Understood?
It appears something is happening in that garden
And it looks like the party is getting started. Paran and Kalam are going to be trying to take out Lorn. Whiskeyjack and bridgeburners are going to try take out everybody else...but oops they see Rake at the party.
Lorn has planted the "acorn"/Finnest in the garden of the party to draw the Jaghut Tyrant.
Kruppe's mind has drawn a blank. He can't see past what will happen at this party
If anything gave Kruppe pause, it was the pattern's abrupt ending. Beyond tonight, the future was blank. Clearly, a crux had been reached, and it would turn, he knew, at Lady Simtal's Fête.
There's a storm thundering ever closer which is not a natural storm - and it appears to affecting all the mages present negatively
'Fid explained it,' Quick Ben said, leaning close. 'I may not be much use, Sergeant. That barrow-dweller's unleashing waves of nasty stuff. My head feels ready to explode.' He grinned wanly. 'And look around. You can pick out all the mages by the sick looks on their faces. If we all accessed our Warrens, we'd be fine.'
'Then why don't you?'
The wizard grimaced. 'That Jaghut would fix on us as if we were a beacon of fire. And he'd take the weaker ones – even from this distance, he'd take them. And then there'd be hell to pay.'
So the mages are in a catch 22. They can counter the sorcerous effects of the Jaghut tyrant's approach - but doing so makes them vulnerable to being possessed.
Also our friend Crokus is in real danger. For a start Lorn's next order of business is
One task remained within her abilities. Find the Coin Bearer. Kill him, and take Oponn's Coin.
And Kruppe is already aware that Crokus is in trouble
No, Crokus would find his luck abandoning him when he needed it most, and it would cost the lad his life.
'No, no,' Kruppe had murmured over his tankard. 'Kruppe can't permit that.'
And of course, the revenge Rallick and Murillio have been planning for so long against Lady Simtal plays out
Step one - Separate Orr and Simtal
This is where Murillio's expertise comes in
'I haven't much time,' Lady Simtal said in a low voice. 'After all, as the hostess for this fête ...'
'It's your duty,' murmured the man before her, 'to satisfy your guests.'
Step two - Rallick baits Orr into duel -
He collided with a hard shoulder and staggered back. A large man in a tiger mask turned to him. Orr waited for an apology, but received only silence.
Of course the reason for separating him from Simtal is partly
'So, where's Lady Simtal?' he asked casually.
'Nowhere in sight,' the guard answered, with obvious relief. 'Otherwise she'd stop this.'
Can't have that.
Step 3 - Confront Lady Simtal and let her know she's been screwed - literally and figuratively
Allow me to explain. Turban Orr's offer of contract to the Assassins' Guild is now officially cancelled. Coll lives, and now his return to this house is assured. You're done with, Lady Simtal. Turban Orr is dead.'
Step 4 - Offer the lady an easy way out
He unsheathed his ornamental dagger and tossed it on the bed. Without another word or gesture, he left the room, knowing with certainty that he would have been the last man to see her alive.
And the other thing to note this chapter - we know the Jaghut is on his way - but check out Mammot's getup
'Good gods, Mammot! Where did you get that hideous mask?'
The old man's eyes held his briefly then shied away. 'An accurate rendition of Jaghut features, I believe,' he said softly. 'Though I think the tusks are a little short.'
But why would undersized tusks bother anyone other than a Jaghut? And we've already been cued in previous chapters about Rake's suspicions re Mammot.
I think this party is a long way from done.
Best chapter yet, I had a grin on my face the whole time. When things go down, everything goes down. And yes, Simtal gets screwed in more ways than one. Haha!I think it's interesting how everyone's ready to be done with the empire. It took till the bridgeburners were getting killed to defeat their loyalty and now they're out with the host. Lorn's ready to give up the adjunct role after being forced to essentially slaughter thousands. It's easy to rule from afar, but being in the middle kind of changes perspectives.
I think I noticed more in this chapter what everyone's saying about this being the least well-written of the series. Lots of changes in perspective in the middle of a section. Or the Murillio scene where he starts out being called "the man" and then suddenly it's Murillio. Erikson definitely corrects this.
Mod
I think it's interesting how everyone..."
I do remember thinking the writing got better as the series progressed - but the other thing I found is this first book got better as the series progressed - like the aftertaste of a good wine.
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David Sven wrote: "I do remember thinking the writing got better as the series progressed - but the other thing I found is this first book got better as the series progressed - like the aftertaste of a good wine."David, you honestly couldn't have said this any better! I completely agree that GotM just gets better and better, not only with each rereading, but with reading successive books in the series, as well as rereading the entire series. Well said!
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I know that I really didn't understand a number of things my first time round. A lot of those confusing parts have been discussed here at length.
Lee wrote: "It will be interesting to read the new readers reviews. I think that having a discussion group would make your first read feel like you have a better grasp of the story. I know that I really didn..."
This is my first post. I am so happy to have stumbled upon this discussion thread. I found it after being lost while reading the first two chapters. I really enjoyed the book and as a first time reader to the series, I may not have have finished.
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Shoot it's been indispensable for me on my second time let alone first!
I've been creeping around the edges for a while trying to get caught up with you guys. I read GotM two years ago and as soon as I finished I knew I'd have to reread it. I didn't understand anything! The second time around has been much better and the discussions have helped a ton.
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Anyone else think of the movie Equilibrium when reading the Orr/Rallick Nom fight? It happens so quickly I almost saw his face sliding off too. :)
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The first time I read this, I wasn't confused at the end either. I went through a lot of periods of confusion while reading, but they were cleared up by the end. Erickson is a master at pulling those loose threads together and making it feel natural.
Same here Thena, my original review says the same. The first half, utter confusion. The 2nd, it all starts coming together. Not only the plots but the world itself. However, there are so many things that were missed, details that become strong plot elements in the later books. I think our first time readers will have a much greater understanding as re-readers can specify the who what when wheres of what happened before.Not to say that Rob is not of brilliant intellect!
Lori wrote: "Same here Thena, my original review says the same. The first half, utter confusion. The 2nd, it all starts coming together. Not only the plots but the world itself. However, there are so many thing..."Yes! I either missed or forgot so many things that I didn't even realize until rereading. There are so many subtle hints strewn throughout the series that I don't know that I'll ever catch them all, even if I read the books 10 times.
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☃❄ ~Thena~ ❄☃ wrote: "I either missed or forgot so many things that I didn't even realize until rereading. There are so many subtle hints strewn throughout the series that I don't know that I'll ever catch them all, even if I read the books 10 times."I completely agree! Every time I read these books it is simply astounding at how much more I pick up. I then think about just how bloody creative Steven Erikson must be to have created this world, its characters, and all of the subtleties of this extraordinarily inventive and original plot that is the MBotF. It boggles the mind!
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LOL. Thanks! I opened myself up for wise-cracks and haven't gotten any yet. Maybe David/Lee just didn't notice yet. ^_^
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Yes
Christopher wrote: "☃❄ ~Thena~ ❄☃ wrote: "I either missed or forgot so many things that I didn't even realize until rereading. There are so many subtle hints strewn throughout the series that I don't know that I'll ev..."The thing to remember (and not in anyway to take away from SE or ICE) is that this was all created long ago as a gaming world played by a group of friends throughout the years. Alot of what we read was actually gamed by the group, and the magic system and world development was all done at that time.
So when we see the level of foreshadowing and the fully realized world that is where the foundation of it all originates. I would wager that there is not a single book in the series that does not contain "gamed" elements and thus the story being told was "storyboarded" from start to finish. Unlike some long multi-book stories where it is painfully obvious the author is making it up as s/he goes.
Probably also explains how SE was able to pump out these huge books so consistantly fast.
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Mikeiwo, surely the early 'gaming' aspect is an element of the whole process that Erikson and Esslemont have relied upon in initially crafting the concept of the Malazan world, but it is the overall consistent quality of the writing and plot complexity that makes these series sit atop the heap of fantasy fiction. In an interview I read, Erikson stated that while the gaming kind of kicked things off early on, as he began writing the MBotF he actually had a fairly open mind when it came to plot direction and just let it take him wherever it would. So, I'm not really sure that the entire MBotF was, in fact "storyboarded from start to finish".
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You got away with it because it was posted in the middle of our night ;)
Christopher wrote: "Mikeiwo, surely the early 'gaming' aspect is an element of the whole process that Erikson and Esslemont have relied upon in initially crafting the concept of the Malazan world, but it is the overal..."Entirely, no certainly not, I agree. However, I would wager that in planning to create these stories he knew right away what was point "A" and what was point "B" and how he would drive there, including all the side trips to see the historic sites along the way.
As an example: Bridgeburners 9th squad. Gamed characters, likely starting shortly before Raraku and gamed right through to Coral. In pondering the start of the series SE likely chooses the Daru campaign to start off, knowing that this will be the right intro for what is to come.
Is the quality consistently high, most definitely. Is it rich in having a fully realized world that is wonderfully described, yes. Does SE take advantage of his extensive knowledge of tribal culture of both northern and north american plains aboriginals, most assuredly (being a Canadian living about 1000km north of where SE was doing that work I can attest to the influence and accuracy of all of that).
My point was not that everything was known, there is most definitely much that is coming straight from brain to page as he is writing. However, alot which seems complex to us (magic, warrens, pantheons of gods, and history) was likely what we see coming from the gaming environment (along with most of the main characters).
You may be right about the gaming aspect, Mikeiwo. I also concur that both Erikson's and Esslemont's reliance upon their anthropological/archaeological expertise has really added a lot to the characterization of the Malazan world peoples, cultures, and social fabric. Cool stuff, to be sure.
Not a gaming person, I never considered that. Hey completely off topic but now I'm thinking of Readme. What rich minds they both have to create such a world altho SE is the far better writer.
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You'd probably walk to the table with you dice in your hand and he'd say:
"Right sit there, your a mage, you are not sure if your fellow mages are on your side or want to kill you. There is a moon sized ball hanging above your head with a bad ass in there. Its raining and you smell. What do you do?"
"roll a 60 sided dice for awareness, you need to get more than 59"
Lori wrote: "What rich minds they both have to create such a world altho SE is the far better writer."Boy, do I agree with this comment, especially about the distinction of the quality of Erikson's writing.
Lee wrote: "Can you imagine rocking up in the middle of one of their games? I am sure Erikson is probably a great DM but he'd probably give you nothing. You'd probably walk to the table with you dice in your..."
Or, he'd be like Fiddler and just make up new rules as he goes...Heh, heh...;-)
uh-huh-Virgin of death is a wild card :)
Maggie wrote: "uh-huh-Virgin of death is a wild card :)";-)
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them).