The Catcher in the Rye
question
MISJUDGING MR. ANTOLINI
Monty J
(last edited
Feb 17, 2013 01:27PM
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Jan 26, 2013 02:07PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66eQL..."
I just watched this John Green video (link above) interpreting The Catcher in the Rye. It's got some pretty good analysis. A little on the frenetic side, but decent overall given the brief time allowed.
But I've got an issue with describing the apartment scene with Mr. Antolini as a sexual come-on. It's irritating to think that a man can't pat a kid on the head without having it blown out of proportion. A woman can stroke a boy's hair and it's fine. But let a man breathe on a kid and the world comes down on him. That's rotten. Men care about children too, and they can be just as loving and nurturing. Well, short of breast feeding, and plenty of women don't breastfeed.
I think Holden's reaction was way over the top. We know how unreliable he is.
In that scene, Holden pushed away the only person who had recognized his panic, who expressed empathy and concern and gave him great advice and a place to crash.
Remember, it was Antolini who was there when James Castle committed suicide at another prep school Holden attended before Pencey. Antolini covered the bloody corpse with his coat and carried it away, proof that he was a compassionate man. Patting Holden on the head is hardly a gay pass when he knew Holden as well as he did. Like a doofus, Holden overreacts and leaves.
What I'm saying to the guy who made the video is: Don't blame Antolini for Holden's touchiness.
Nevertheless, Holden took it the way he did and rejected a valid and valuable adult source of solace and consolation, not to mention world class advice. There's a lesson in this: Sometimes we misinterpret good intentions out of mistrust and are the worse for it.
The teenage years are when we begin questioning or rejecting our parents' world view and look for answers outside the family and extended family circle of comfort and trust. They've lied to us about Santa Claus and the Boogey Man; what else have they been lying about? We've begun noticing their flaws and started looking elsewhere for answers. We want to be prepared for life, for making our own decisions. The hypocrisy (phoniness) within our formerly godlike inner circle of family has discredited them. Who can we trust? Where are the answers?
And so we pick up books like , Dianetics, Atlas Shrugged and Hunger Games.
This teenage crisis period of searching is brilliantly rendered by Salinger in the character of Holden Caulfield.
Flash forward in the novel to where Holden is in the rest home, reflecting on Antolini's quote of Wilhelm Stekel, The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. Holden kept Antolini's handwritten quote. It's doubtful he would have kept it if he hadn't resolved his concerns about Antolini.
So what if someone is gay? That doesn't mean he/she's a pedophile or that you can't trust what he/she says. Crapolla! Holden would say. One of my best teachers was overtly effeminate and he never made a pass at me or anyone else that I'm aware of.
I like to think that Salinger would be a lot like Mr. Antolini.
I just watched this John Green video (link above) interpreting The Catcher in the Rye. It's got some pretty good analysis. A little on the frenetic side, but decent overall given the brief time allowed.
But I've got an issue with describing the apartment scene with Mr. Antolini as a sexual come-on. It's irritating to think that a man can't pat a kid on the head without having it blown out of proportion. A woman can stroke a boy's hair and it's fine. But let a man breathe on a kid and the world comes down on him. That's rotten. Men care about children too, and they can be just as loving and nurturing. Well, short of breast feeding, and plenty of women don't breastfeed.
I think Holden's reaction was way over the top. We know how unreliable he is.
In that scene, Holden pushed away the only person who had recognized his panic, who expressed empathy and concern and gave him great advice and a place to crash.
Remember, it was Antolini who was there when James Castle committed suicide at another prep school Holden attended before Pencey. Antolini covered the bloody corpse with his coat and carried it away, proof that he was a compassionate man. Patting Holden on the head is hardly a gay pass when he knew Holden as well as he did. Like a doofus, Holden overreacts and leaves.
What I'm saying to the guy who made the video is: Don't blame Antolini for Holden's touchiness.
Nevertheless, Holden took it the way he did and rejected a valid and valuable adult source of solace and consolation, not to mention world class advice. There's a lesson in this: Sometimes we misinterpret good intentions out of mistrust and are the worse for it.
The teenage years are when we begin questioning or rejecting our parents' world view and look for answers outside the family and extended family circle of comfort and trust. They've lied to us about Santa Claus and the Boogey Man; what else have they been lying about? We've begun noticing their flaws and started looking elsewhere for answers. We want to be prepared for life, for making our own decisions. The hypocrisy (phoniness) within our formerly godlike inner circle of family has discredited them. Who can we trust? Where are the answers?
And so we pick up books like , Dianetics, Atlas Shrugged and Hunger Games.
This teenage crisis period of searching is brilliantly rendered by Salinger in the character of Holden Caulfield.
Flash forward in the novel to where Holden is in the rest home, reflecting on Antolini's quote of Wilhelm Stekel, The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. Holden kept Antolini's handwritten quote. It's doubtful he would have kept it if he hadn't resolved his concerns about Antolini.
So what if someone is gay? That doesn't mean he/she's a pedophile or that you can't trust what he/she says. Crapolla! Holden would say. One of my best teachers was overtly effeminate and he never made a pass at me or anyone else that I'm aware of.
I like to think that Salinger would be a lot like Mr. Antolini.
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Holden in no way overreacted. Being intimately touched while in a state of vulnerable unconsciousness by someone who you’re not in an intimate relationship with would rattle most people. How could you feel comfortable going back to sleep after such a violation? If Mr. Antolini wanted to show affection to Holden, that could be done while he was awake. Sexual abuse isn’t rare and Holden’s own alluded to history of such abuse is almost always overlooked when analyzing his character, yet the presence of abuse is always a huge factor in any child/adolescent’s development.
Holden seems to hate everyone and everything, which is common for people struggling with depression and who have had their trust violated too often- which, if you haven’t, consider yourself lucky. But he never mistreated anyone before he snapped at Phoebe towards the end and he goes above and beyond social expectations to help others. He doesn’t deserve all the criticism he gets.
Holden seems to hate everyone and everything, which is common for people struggling with depression and who have had their trust violated too often- which, if you haven’t, consider yourself lucky. But he never mistreated anyone before he snapped at Phoebe towards the end and he goes above and beyond social expectations to help others. He doesn’t deserve all the criticism he gets.
While Mr. Antolini's actions may have been innocent, Holden didn't think they were. Holden says in the book that things like that have happened about 20 times before, implying that Holden was sexually abused at some point in his life. He also talks about how maybe he was wrong about Mr. Antolini patting his head like a child would say to themselves that an adult touched them inappropriately on accident rather than on purpose. This would explain why Holden was so terrified about Mr. Antolini.
I won't go as far as to say Mr. Antolini was a sexual deviant, but how his life was explained to us (the much older wife, letting Holden in on such short notice, alcohol consumption) makes him a person to be more cautious of.
I won't go as far as to say Mr. Antolini was a sexual deviant, but how his life was explained to us (the much older wife, letting Holden in on such short notice, alcohol consumption) makes him a person to be more cautious of.
It speaks to Holden's issues rather than to the man.
Monty J wrote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66eQL..."
I just watched this John Green video (link above) interpreting The Catcher in the Rye. It's got some pretty good analysis. A little on the frenetic side, ..."
The pat on the head scene troubled me, but we live in a time that is ultra sensitive to this type of affection. I did not want to believe he was a perve, but I could feel Holden's angst and probably would have done the same thing he did... run.
I just watched this John Green video (link above) interpreting The Catcher in the Rye. It's got some pretty good analysis. A little on the frenetic side, ..."
The pat on the head scene troubled me, but we live in a time that is ultra sensitive to this type of affection. I did not want to believe he was a perve, but I could feel Holden's angst and probably would have done the same thing he did... run.
I am a bit torn, i believe that both sides regarding Antolinis head pats have a point, but at the same time, I can’t help to put myself in Holdens shoes, but I am guessing that the author wants us to create our own interpretations, so here’s mine.
Sure, Antolini is a friends of his —and maybe even a bit of a father figure — but the same way that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I believe that if Holder interpret it that way, and Antolini knows him that well, then maybe Antolini should have seen it coming or at least apologized for freaking him out. I also feel that Antolini trying to justify the action by saying: “I was just....” and “you are a very, very strange boy” indicates that he is either: meaning well, but is unaware of how Holden could interpret the situation (which I feel is unlikely since he seems to be pretty intelligent), or he knows he is doing something he shouldn’t and he is trying to belittle the seriousness of it to try to calm or silence Holden.
Antolini almost seemed to be trying to compromise with Holden when he repeatedly said “go back to bed, I’ll do so myself”, as if saying “let’s just forget about this mishap, shall we?” Which indicates that he might know what he did wrong, since losing side almost always want to compromise.
I also read someone stating that this has something with gender to do, which I don’t believe at all. I think it would have been at least as creepy if mrs Antolini had made her way out of the bed to pet Holden’s forehead, especially after how long it was since Holden met the two.
Sure, Antolini is a friends of his —and maybe even a bit of a father figure — but the same way that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I believe that if Holder interpret it that way, and Antolini knows him that well, then maybe Antolini should have seen it coming or at least apologized for freaking him out. I also feel that Antolini trying to justify the action by saying: “I was just....” and “you are a very, very strange boy” indicates that he is either: meaning well, but is unaware of how Holden could interpret the situation (which I feel is unlikely since he seems to be pretty intelligent), or he knows he is doing something he shouldn’t and he is trying to belittle the seriousness of it to try to calm or silence Holden.
Antolini almost seemed to be trying to compromise with Holden when he repeatedly said “go back to bed, I’ll do so myself”, as if saying “let’s just forget about this mishap, shall we?” Which indicates that he might know what he did wrong, since losing side almost always want to compromise.
I also read someone stating that this has something with gender to do, which I don’t believe at all. I think it would have been at least as creepy if mrs Antolini had made her way out of the bed to pet Holden’s forehead, especially after how long it was since Holden met the two.
AT LAST! To me, this, Antolini's quote of Wilhelm Stekel, is THE message hidden at the heart of the book, the only message, the diamond among loads of bullshit – Holden's – people let themselves get snowed under to the point of losing sight of the essential. I think the reason you have got to push aside a lot of rubbish before you get to the point of the novel is some kind of writer's coquetry: he did not want to make himself cheap! And he succeeded beyond any expectation... judging from what countless critics have written!
This is not the first time Salinger has used a thing pocketed which later takes on significance to the person pocketing it: I am thinking of the short story 'Just Before the War with the Eskimos', where Ginnie Mannox takes a bite of "a half a chicken sandwich" Selena's brother Eric has just fetched from his room for her because he thinks she must be hungry after the game of tennis she had with his sister. When Eric left to go and have a shave, Ginnie "looked around, without getting up, for a place to throw out or hide the sandwich. She heard someone coming through the foyer. She put the sandwich into her polo-coat pocket." Later, when Ginnie left Selena's home and walked to a bus stop, "she reached into her coat pocket for her purse and found the sandwich half. She took it out and started to bring her arm down to drop the sandwich into the street, but instead she put it back into her pocket."
This is not the first time Salinger has used a thing pocketed which later takes on significance to the person pocketing it: I am thinking of the short story 'Just Before the War with the Eskimos', where Ginnie Mannox takes a bite of "a half a chicken sandwich" Selena's brother Eric has just fetched from his room for her because he thinks she must be hungry after the game of tennis she had with his sister. When Eric left to go and have a shave, Ginnie "looked around, without getting up, for a place to throw out or hide the sandwich. She heard someone coming through the foyer. She put the sandwich into her polo-coat pocket." Later, when Ginnie left Selena's home and walked to a bus stop, "she reached into her coat pocket for her purse and found the sandwich half. She took it out and started to bring her arm down to drop the sandwich into the street, but instead she put it back into her pocket."
Maybe I come from a "warmer" socio-cultural enviroment, buy I never read that passage with Mr. Antolini as an attempt to abuse of Holden. As you´ve already said, Holden distrust of adulhood in general and is afraid of maturing. He believes everybody is so self centered that they can´t perform acts of selfless kindness, like patting a child´s head while he sleeps.
I think he lost the opportunity to have someone who could listen to him and try to understand him.
Anyway, seems like sallinger left it ambiguous on purpose so we wonder about the difference between real kindness and disguised interest.
I think he lost the opportunity to have someone who could listen to him and try to understand him.
Anyway, seems like sallinger left it ambiguous on purpose so we wonder about the difference between real kindness and disguised interest.
Monty J wrote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66eQL..."
I just watched this John Green video (link above) interpreting The Catcher in the Rye. It's got some pretty good analysis. A little on the frenetic side, ..."
YOU DON'T PAT A KID ON THE HEAD IN THE DARK AT NIGHT WHEN HE'S ASLEEP AND VULNERABLE. YOU JUST DON'T. I think to do that is inappropriate at any time. I think Holden's reaction was totally understandable.
I just watched this John Green video (link above) interpreting The Catcher in the Rye. It's got some pretty good analysis. A little on the frenetic side, ..."
YOU DON'T PAT A KID ON THE HEAD IN THE DARK AT NIGHT WHEN HE'S ASLEEP AND VULNERABLE. YOU JUST DON'T. I think to do that is inappropriate at any time. I think Holden's reaction was totally understandable.
Holden was very lost and everyone in "Catcher" has some fatal flaw from the adult world that Holden is trying to run from, and why he wants to be the 'catcher in the rye.' Mr. Antolini isn't a bad character but like everyone in the adult world he is at cross purposes, and is a little like a guru trying to seduce his students. Holden is the ultimate 'kid' in this book and is very vulnerable so I think his own sexuality and motivations are clearly in question too, so he's not only running from Antolini but a part of himself.
When we read the book in English class, my teacher agreed with you but I remember him calling Holden "handsome" before bed and thought that was definitely intended as a tip-off.
This is definitely a thoughtful analysis of Mr. Antolini's character, but I am part of the "team" that sees his interactions with Holden - and our subsequent affinity towards Holden's perspective - as a way to look at ourselves and the world around us. Since we tend to embody the main characters of the stories we read, it's no wonder we feel the same angst that Holden does, and it is only later that He, and we the reader, reflect on what we remember happening and what might have actually happened. We cannot definitively say what Mr. Antolini's intentions were that night, but I don't think we're meant to either. He's as ambiguous as many other people we meet in our lives. Just because we think we know someone well, doesn't mean this is the case.
And I believe it was mentioned before, but this whole ordeal for Holden goes hand in hand with the rest of his experiences throughout the book. His deep mistrust of the adult world and the apprehensive unknown of a teenager's future. The trials of growing up when no one seems to understand you or wants to try; even after thinking he's met the one adult who can understand him, Holden still on some level thinks that Mr. Antolini is only in it for his own pleasures.
And I believe it was mentioned before, but this whole ordeal for Holden goes hand in hand with the rest of his experiences throughout the book. His deep mistrust of the adult world and the apprehensive unknown of a teenager's future. The trials of growing up when no one seems to understand you or wants to try; even after thinking he's met the one adult who can understand him, Holden still on some level thinks that Mr. Antolini is only in it for his own pleasures.
Interesting discussion but I think it is deliberately meant to be ambiguous. You never really know whether Mr. Antolini is just being touchy-feely or whether he is a sexual deviant, and Holden debates this grey issue later with himself.
I think Mr. Antolini gave Holden a lot of good advice and came across as very kind, but paedophiles can also seem kind to children, or can appear completely normal otherwise. I think Salinger was just trying to make Mr. Antolini less black-and-white and avoid coming across as some perfect benevolent guru or something, and show maybe he is not necessarily a paedo but he has his quirks and eccentricities.
I think Mr. Antolini gave Holden a lot of good advice and came across as very kind, but paedophiles can also seem kind to children, or can appear completely normal otherwise. I think Salinger was just trying to make Mr. Antolini less black-and-white and avoid coming across as some perfect benevolent guru or something, and show maybe he is not necessarily a paedo but he has his quirks and eccentricities.
deleted member
Jan 31, 2013 05:15AM
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Good grief, I'd probably freak out if I woke up and someone, even one of my parents, was patting me on the head. No one likes to be taken by surprise, even if the surpriser had the best of intentions.
I put it into perspective like this, I have a math teacher whom I like very much. He's taught me a lot about life, and made me love math more than I already did. If I was asleep, and he affectionately patted my head, I would take it as fatherly love, given what I already know about him.
I got into an argument with a friend about this issue as well. And his reply was "that's because that's who you are. And Holden is clearly not you."
To which I told him that's exactly what I meant. The teacher's act itself was not sexual, it just seemed that way to Holden because of how Holden is.
I got into an argument with a friend about this issue as well. And his reply was "that's because that's who you are. And Holden is clearly not you."
To which I told him that's exactly what I meant. The teacher's act itself was not sexual, it just seemed that way to Holden because of how Holden is.
I think part of the misinterpretation on the part of Holden is that Antolini pats his head while Holden is sleeping. This adds a different level of intimacy. I suppose you can read it as a mother admiring her child while sleeping and softly stroking his/her hair. But Antolini waits for Holden to fall asleep to "pat" his head. Also, in the scene, Antolini's wife is considerably older and Salinger alludes to these Antolinis as having more of a platonic relationship.
But I think your comments have merit and it's not something I've truly considered until I read it. So thank you for the insight.
But I think your comments have merit and it's not something I've truly considered until I read it. So thank you for the insight.
I feel like Antiloni is worthy of whole another story in of itself. If you think about the whole concept long enough, it seems to reveal the general fear that the figures in your life that you see as your primary protection will falter under their own impulses and harm you—in the sort of way that someone would wonder if their docile pet would attack and kill them someday—the whole feet of clay edict that seems to fuel plenty coming of age narratives. You make a pretty good analysis on the subject.I still believe is no real way to decide Antiloni’s intentions, because we never revisit the character again after that, but I am in the camp of giving the man the benefit of the doubt.
Sherwood Anderson’s short story “Hands” delves into the same territory as you analyze here. I highly suggest it, if you haven’t come across it before.
Sherwood Anderson’s short story “Hands” delves into the same territory as you analyze here. I highly suggest it, if you haven’t come across it before.
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