Ross Poldark
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Ross and Elizabeth - could they have been happy?
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Rachel
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Jan 08, 2008 01:03PM
So do you think if Elizabeth had decided to marry Ross instead of Francis they would have had a happy marriage?
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I am not sure about that but you do know that later
SPOILER......
about 4 books later they have a child...
The child is named Valentine! He is born on Valentine's day but another man thinks the child is his child.
SPOILER......
about 4 books later they have a child...
The child is named Valentine! He is born on Valentine's day but another man thinks the child is his child.
I believe this book is called The Black Moon or The Dark Moon. If I remember right the actual conception takes place in the previous book. But I am telling too much and I know you don't want to read SPOILERS! You will learn more about the true personality of Elizabeth as you go along. She is a person who is very concerned with money and position.
I think Elizabeth was a wishy-washy person. If she really loved Ross, she should have followed her heart and told Francis that she was breaking off the engagement when Ross came back unexpectedly. Perhaps they would have been incompatible together because Ross has a strong personality, and Elizabeth does, too.
I agree with Rose and deleted member above. I think that if Ross had married Elizabeth there would have been no more books after the first one. She is too prissy and negative. She rarely shows spirit and Ross needed a foil for his strong character - Demelza in fact!
I think they would have been happy for a while but I don't think Elizabeth would have been able to cope as well with the events in which Ross embroiled himself, such as Jim Carter's tragic prison break, it was always in his nature to fight for an injustice and would always have ended up as something of a rebel in the eyes of his own class. Having said that, and this view is very unpopular with some of my friends, I think George and Elizabeth made very good couple and I think out of the three main men in her life he knew her best. even though he is supposed to be the hero's nemesis I love Graham's ability to make a reader understand and empathise with almost any character and I truly think that George was hi own worst enemy and for this I feel for him. The scenes between him and Elizabeth leading up to her death were truly moving and I think in her own way she had come to love him to. The scene after she has died and George wanders the house alone reflecting on what he has lost and what Elizabeth has left behind is one of my all time favourite pieces of writing
I couldn't agree more with you. George and Elizabeth did make a good couple - far better than Ross and Elizabeth would have. He provided her with what she most wanted in life - wealth and position - something Ross could never have done and she would have been very unhappy and made Ross so.
Ross needed someone with more spirit - and he got it!
Elizabeth character has no heart and soul, just a porcelain exterior - Demelza's character has much more depth as she crosses social classes in her own special way. If I could be anyone in that book, that's who I'd be!
Michelle wrote: "Elizabeth character has no heart and soul, just a porcelain exterior - Demelza's character has much more depth as she crosses social classes in her own special way. If I could be anyone in that boo..."I agree with you totally. I think Ross and Demelza suit each other; compliment each other. I think Ross's interest in Elizabeth wained once he met Demelza, although, like in real life, we think on what may have been. If Ross had to choose between the two, I reckon he would choose Demelza every time. Her spirit is sexy and alive - Elizabeth struck me as defeatist and accepting of the status-quo with no fighting spirit. I can't see that earning Ross's respect in a long-term relationship. He is adventurous, Elizabeth is not. She, I believe would be a needy companion.
However, Ross has a great sense of responsibility so he will always look out for Elizabeth and maybe even wonder what might have been.
Didn't Ross rape Elizabeth when he learned that she was going to marry George Warleggan?
I agree with Suzanne, George was perfect for Elizabeth. Both were only skin deep to me. Elizabeth would have made Ross as miserable as she made Francis. I like the way the author showed the reader that Ross did pick Demelza over Elizabeth. After that fateful night, he never went to Elizabeth again.
How many children did Ross and Demelza have?
Beth wrote: "How many children did Ross and Demelza have?"Five children.
Actually, the author of this blog called "ELLEN AND JIM HAVE A BLOG, TWO" - https://ellenandjim.wordpress.com/201... - believes it was possible for Ross and Elizabeth to have a successful marriage.
Please don't include spoilers for those of us who have not read the whole series, without including a spoiler alert. I've only read the first, because my doggone library is making me wait forever for "Demelza." I loved the first book and really would rather not know what happens later until I read it.
Marilyn wrote: "Please don't include spoilers for those of us who have not read the whole series, without including a spoiler alert. I've only read the first, because my doggone library is making me wait forever f..."Oh, Marilyn, you are in for a real treat with reading this series. I loved all of them.
Marilyn wrote: "Please don't include spoilers for those of us who have not read the whole series, without including a spoiler alert. I've only read the first, because my doggone library is making me wait forever f..."Hi Marilyn--I stumbled on a spoiler like this when I first started reading the series and it disappointed me. But now I'm further ahead than a lot of people so *I'm* the one that knows what's coming. ;-) When you finally get the books from the library, consider joining our little discussion group--where we try very hard to hide or warn about spoilers!
Poldark Saga - Winston Graham
Thank you, Tanya! I'm looking forward to the next book and your discussions!
Elizabeth character has no heart and soul, just a porcelain exterior - Demelza's character has much more depth as she crosses social classes in her own special way. If I could be anyone in that book, that's who I'd be! Elizabeth has heart and soul. However, she is not written in a ridiculously idealized manner.
I think most of us recognise the goodie and the baddie. Not that Elizabeth is not to have our sympathy but I think she has been spoilt for choice. However if she had chosen the young Poldark, my opinion is that it would have been disastrous anyway. Demelza was a far better match for Ross even though it took Ross a while to recognise the fact.I loved this series so much that I am savouring it. Only a few books to go. I mix them with other readings so I keep refreshed.
P.S. As for the inference that Ross raped Elizabeth, I cannot believe that. Consensual sex is a much more believable event. Ross, throughout the series, has a most ethical viewpoint on every crisis that befalls him. He is a survivor but not at the expense of the innocent.
He raped her. Read the novel again. Ross' actions, along with Elizabeth's response and words clearly pointed to the fact that he had initially raped her. Ross is not that noble, even if you want to believe it.Sometimes, I cannot help but laugh at the fans' views of both Ross and Elizabeth. The latter is condemned for not being an extroverted character with a penchant for openly expressing her emotions. I keep forgetting that introverted women are not highly regarded in today's Western society. Whereas, Ross is put on a pedestal as some kind of compassionate liberal without a flawed bone in his body.
Everyone wants to regard the characters and their relationship in this easy and one-dimensional manner and ignore that Winston Graham had created a complex literary saga filled with complex and ambiguous characters. It's just sad.
The son of the author issued a statement in which he definitively squashes any ambiguity about "rape". "They had consensual sex born of lifelong love and longing."
Drush76 wrote: "He raped her. Read the novel again. Ross' actions, along with Elizabeth's response and words clearly pointed to the fact that he had initially raped her. Ross is not that noble, even if you want to..."I find it insulting that when you disagree with someone's point of view, you find that point of view laughable. Of course every human being is flawed in some way but to suggest I am putting Ross on a pedestal because he is portrayed as a decent character is what is laughable.
Elizabeth was less decent because she wanted to live a secure life with the rich man rather than risk her material comfort on a less than wealthy Ross who was bound to get into trouble fighting wars and taking risks. It is that simple. Winston Graham is an admirable writer. His characters are well drawn and I find there is no ambiguity. If you wish to make it more than it is, that is your problem. Demelza and Ross make the perfect couple. Ross is tormented by his first love but it would never have worked. Ross clearly battles with the fact he still loves Elizabeth but he gradually realizes he is married to the right person after all.
Those of you who think Ross & Elizabeth should've gotten together after Francis' death are forgetting one important obstacle. Ross was married to Demelza and was not free to marry Elizabeth. Elizabeth had a choice- be Ross' mistress or George's wife. She chose wisely and completely in accordance with an eighteenth century woman of her class.
Elizabeth was less decent because she wanted to live a secure life with the rich man rather than risk her material comfort on a less than wealthy Ross who was bound to get into trouble fighting wars and taking risks. It is that simple. Winston Graham is an admirable writer. His characters are well drawn and I find there is no ambiguity. If you wish to make it more than it is, that is your problem.And it is your problem if you wish to harbor your own opinion that goes against someone else's. It's that simple. We don't have to blindly accept your opinion or go out of our way to prove ours to you.
Weird. I was not trying to change anyone's interpretation. I was trying to explain mine!
deleted user wrote: "I think they would have been happy for a while but I don't think Elizabeth would have been able to cope as well with the events in which Ross embroiled himself, such as Jim Carter's tragic prison b..."I agree.
Drush76 wrote: "He raped her. Read the novel again. Ross' actions, along with Elizabeth's response and words clearly pointed to the fact that he had initially raped her. Ross is not that noble, even if you want to..."I also agree. Although I definitely favor Demelza over Elizabeth, personality-wise, because I can relate more to her, I feel sorry for Elizabeth because how much her indecisiveness then poor decisions cost her. On top that situations outside of her control also push her around. Winston Graham is indeed very good at writing characters you emphathise with, even the "bad guys", I always find myself rooting for George to be a better person because at the heart of everything he is insecure and wants to belong, unfortunately those natural, relatable feelings are perverted by his immense pride and fear of shame.
I also think the roller coasters of Ross' life would've have been too much for Elizabeth if they had married after all. Francis' ups and downs were hard but she was able to bear them in a more comfortable setting at Trenwith than Nampara would have been. I also think Ross would've felt even more burdened when his fortune's fell because Elizabeth was used to better living and feel guilt for not keeping her as comfortable as she was used to. I'm sure Elizabeth wouldn't have made complaint for Ross' sake but it would always eat at Ross. Whereas Demelza was already used to meager living and by comparison was a more able partner for Ross, already knowing how to economize and be grateful for the small joys.
I don't think anyone is condemning Elizabeth for being an introvert. As someone who is also an introvert, I'm quite sensitive to when a character is being judged for being too quiet or introverted, and I don't get that sense with reader's reactions to Elizabeth, at least none that I have read so far.Actually, I'm not even sure if Elizabeth is an introvert. Elizabeth is who she was bred to be-a genteel, refined, upper-class woman. As for the rape, I think it was written rather ambiguously, and I'm not convinced that was in fact what happened. I don't say that to defend Ross because I think he has a number of flaws, and I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that the majority of female readers get very frustrated with him at times. I really don't think he's put on a pedestal. And back to the introversion thing-that comment sounds more like a psychological projection onto the book and its readers than anything. People don't like Elizabeth because she comes across as cold and too concerned with money and class. I think readers relate to Demelza more because she seems more modern. One of the few positives to being poor and destitute in those days is that you were free to express yourself and make your own choices in a way that people in the upper echelons of society could not.
Okay, back to the original question of whether Ross and Elizabeth would have been happy together. In the beginning of the series, I wasn't sure, but I think that was the purpose of his affair with Elizabeth later on in the novel. Demelza was the real and Elizabeth was the ideal. I think most of us have fallen for the "ideal" version of a person and that's exactly what happened to Ross. As the years went by, his rejection and separation from Elizabeth kept those feelings alive and maybe even made them stronger. When his relationship with her was finally brought down to a real level, he was disappointed, because he thought he would find Demelza's equal in her and he did not. It was a cathartic experience for him but, in my opinion, it didn't warrant the pain he caused both women. However, Graham was very good at capturing human nature with all its flaws, and all of his characters are flawed, including Demelza, despite the fact that she's my favorite character in the series.
I'd like to see an encounter between the two Poldark women where Demelza asks Elizabeth about the health of Geoffrey Charles and adds that she has always had a special place for him in her heart since the night not so long ago when she saved his life. What would Elizabeth say in response I wonder?
Just wanted to say that I watched the season 1 streaming and loved the series. I fell in love with impulsive and honorable Ross, and independent and spunky Demelza. Elizabeth got what she deserved by marrying Francis (prestige and money without passion).Then I started watching season 2 streaming, and got to the Elizabeth - Ross scene towards the end of the series. I stopped watching after that. Made me incredibly angry that the beautiful love story between Ross and Demelza had to be destroyed. And Ross showed that he was unprincipled, dishonorable and weak man. After all. Good riddance!
Ana wrote: "Just wanted to say that I watched the season 1 streaming and loved the series. I fell in love with impulsive and honorable Ross, and independent and spunky Demelza. Elizabeth got what she deserved ..."I watched some of the TV series but thought the character of Ross was nothing like the books portrayed. I saw Ross as an older man (but not old), more ruggedly handsome and strong. The books give us a more comprehensive picture of the story as written by Winston Graham. I loved the good character of Ross throughout. I don't remember him turning into a cad!
She was too shallow and phony for him.
There is more chemistry between Ross and Elizabeth. Nothing about Ross and Demelza's relationship makes me yearn for more. I think he had to marry her and feels obligated to her but I don't feel any passion there. Elizabeth waited and waited for Ross after they slept together. Why did he stay away? I felt terrible for her. Now it seems like she's lost her way because she isn't acting at all like the person she was in first 2 seasons. It doesn't make sense that suddenly she is mean and petty like George. Deep down I think she is still a good person. It was her mother who pushed her to marry Francis for wealth and position. I understand why she needed to marry again because she would never be able to fend for herself but why George? That also doesn't make any sense. Ross was right, she could have married 30 other men - why choose his arch enemy. I know this won't happen but I secretly wish Ross and Elizabeth would get together!
I think Ross and Elizabeth are infatuated with each other. Ross' relationship with Demelza, on the other hand, is real. Perhaps Demelza idolizes Ross, but she also knows him better than Elizabeth does. Has anyone ever tried to imagine how Elizabeth would have dealt with living as Ross' wife at Nampara? I don't think she would have dealt very well with the lack of luxury or the need for physical labor. Even if Elizabeth is beautiful and a prize to three young eligible men she strikes me as unable to stand on her own two feet. Ultimately Demelza seems more capable of taking her fate into her own hands than Elizabeth. I think that Ross respects Demelza for her strength and self-reliance, and I don't think Elizabeth would have been able to impress him in a similar way.
Elizabeth would never have been happy with anyone but herself. She was just a selfish brat. No way could she have coped with taking care of Nampara. She could barely take care of herself while having servants and making poor Violet wait on her.
I think some of you are being too hard on Elizabeth. She was a product of the way she was raised her mother controlled her life. I think Ross forced his self on Elizabeth that night he went to her home trying to convince her not to marry George. She kept saying NO Ross and when he threw her on the bed and Elizabeth said Ross you wouldn't and he replied I would. Then of course deep down she loved him she gave in to him. Ross had a wife and family what do you suppose his plans were for them had he been successful in convincing Elizabeth not to marry George. He was barley able to feed the family he had. But I don't think we should analyze any charter too much after all it's a movie. An excellent movie the writer awesome I can not praise Debbie enough. Ever actor and every actress even the ones you want to hate did a marvelous job.
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