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To the Lighthouse
To the Lighthouse - Spine 2013
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Discussion - Week Three - To the Lighthouse - Part 3, Ch 1 - 13
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I just finished the book last night. It's just so wonderful and beautiful and deep and colorful and dark and meaningful.Yes, I do think Lily is used as a device for Woolf to comment on art and creativity, and I think Woolf did an excellent job with this. I'm a painter (not as my career, but painting is something I like to do -- it's a passion which I hope could turn into a "living" one day), and I was able to relate SO MUCH to all that Lily went through in her painting process.
There's so much more that I want to say, about Lily, about Mr. Ramsay, about Cam and James, about Woolf, but I'm on a deadline for work right now so I will have to come back tomorrow or later this week to add more thoughts.
I'm looking forward to seeing everyone else's thoughts on this magnificent work of literature.
This was my third time reading it. I first read it at about 20 and then again in my mid-20's. I knew the "story," but the writing felt fresh and I actually felt I got so much more out of it this time, being a more experienced reader, a wife, and a mother. We have discussed the inversions of time. But there is also an interesting devise Woolf uses of using a distant view (Lily trying to make out the boat going to the lighthouse, Cam (?) looking back at the house) set against the deeply personal stream of consciousness in this section.
After having just read Orlando and especially The Waves I can also see some of Woolf personal symbolism with greater depth as well. I'm not sure that I can speak to them concretely, but the descriptions of waves and pools, leaves, shadows, cut flowers, closeness and distance.
I somehow missed the reading of Mrs. Dalloway, though I had intended to reread it with the group. I'm inspired to reread it now along with A Room of One's Own. I have been a fan of Woolf since I was in college and it has been such a pleasure to revisit (and read some works for the first time) here.
This is my second read and no surprise I found things I hadn't seen before and I intend on reading it again.James's almost murderous hatred of his father would be disturbing if not for the fact that he is so young, giving us a ray of hope that he will grow up and out of it someday. His ability to influence Cam so that she can't show her father affection is disturbing also. James has in effect become his father.
Mr Ramsay was a thinking man. Yet we hardly ever get to hear what he is thinking. The reader is left as much in the dark as his children, possibly with the same desire to know what makes him tick.
Throughout the novel Lily was constantly trying to find what lies at the center of all things. For a while she thought a tree should go in the middle of her painting. She finally finishes it on the very last page with a line in the middle. "I have had my vision. I can't help but wonder what her painting looked like and what she put in the middle after all.
Mod
Mr Ramsay was a thinking man. Yet we hardly ever get to hear what he is thinking...."
It's true, we never get to know exactly what he's thinking, but the section where he was going on and on about having made it to "Q" and now striving to reach "R", and how few men in England could even come close to "Q", so he should be proud of that, though he knew he could never reach "Z", since only one man in a generation ever reached "Z". Very funny stuff!
I also liked Lily Briscoe imagining an inverted kitchen table embedded in a tree as the essence of Mr. Ramsay's philosophical thinking. Also funny!
Somewhere near the beginning, there is discussion of a famous painter who came to the area and whose was now imitated by the younger painters, like Lily. Suggestion was that it was some sort of figurative abstraction - maybe similar to Matisse and the Fauves, or some sort of early Cubism. I imagined Lily's work as non-realist of some sort. I was happy with Lily's final resolution of her visual problem, much like Woolf's resolution of the novel itself.
Linda wrote: "This is my second read and no surprise I found things I hadn't seen before and I intend on reading it again.James's almost murderous hatred of his father would be disturbing if not for the fact t..."
I did not mind not being privy to as many of Mr. Ramsay's thoughts. It was the thoughts of men like him that households such as the Ramsays (Stephens) and indeed the whole culture were inundated with. Instead--and I think this is very consciously Woolf's project--we are exposed to the thoughts of those one would rarely encounter at the time: a wife/mother, a small child, an emerging female artist.
Mod
And when we do read his thoughts, they tend to be condescending and dismissive. He imagines himself as protector and leader, but most perceive him as an insensitive tyrant, especially James, who unfortunately is showing signs at age 16 that he will likely become his father's son.
One aspect I thought was kind of heartbreaking was James in the boat trying to recapture some sense of his mother, whom he lost at age 6. My own mother died when I was 20 and I often have trouble remembering who she was and what she was like. For a six-year-old, it must be near impossible to pin down clear memories beyond shadows.
I read it for the first time, and it was also my first book by VW. I absolutely loved it, even though to my distracted mind sometimes the stream of consciousness was a bit hard to follow. I found it invigorating, very personal, with a very sensitive depiction of childhood, motherhood, the contrast between a philosophical mind such as that of Mr. Ramsay and William Bankes and the everyday existence of others. Later on, we see a very accurate portrayal of adolescence, in Cam and James's mixed feelings about their surviving parent, and James's attempts to remember his mother. I was also intrigued by Lily's sensibilities, the shift in focus (much the same as Mrs. Ramsay's) between her musings about the world around her and her painting, her creation (and Mrs. Ramsay was also a creator, of the relationships and the events around her). And the fact that she cries out the departed's name throughout this last part also invokes the similarities between them.
I also thought that the moment Lily finishes her painting is quite metalinguistic, because of "the vision". It may be awkward and somehow imperfect, as her inability to deal with Mr. Ramsay, which in turn resonates Mrs. Ramsay's inability to tell him she loves him. It may be incomplete, as her remembrance and her feelings for Mrs. Ramsay's death and her own predicament, not having married and being practically the same as she was ten years before, and an old maid for that matter. But it is heartfelt and genuine, and that is what matters most. I feel the same about the book.
Simone wrote: "I read it for the first time, and it was also my first book by VW. I absolutely loved it, even though to my distracted mind sometimes the stream of consciousness was a bit hard to follow. I found i..."Simone, I love your descriptions in your second and third paragraphs of Message 8 in this thread. I found Lily to be a very intriguing character (actually, I found all of the characters to be interesting and intriguing, but Lily was SO interesting throughout the novel.)
I hadn't thought of this before I read your post, but yes, Mrs. Ramsay was a creator as well. Lily's world was centered on her painting, and she wanted complete control of it (to the point that earlier in the book she did not want anyone to even look at the painting), just as Mrs. Ramsay's world was centered around her family and friends, and being in control of everything that happened with all of them.
I really think Virginia Woolf is brilliant. In the early part of the book I didn't like Mr. or Mrs. Ramsay, nor did I understand either of them. By the end of the book, I felt as though I really understood the Ramsays and I really felt so much compassion for both Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay and many of the other characters.
On a lighter note, I guess it was no big surprise about how Paul and Minta's marriage turned out, was it??
Barbara wrote: "On a lighter note, I guess it was no big surprise about how Paul and Minta's marriage turned out, was it??"Indeed, Barbara, it was not a surprise. Although I think there were some feelings between them, it is strange to think of his reaction when he proposes, and even later in "The Window" to see how Minta dealt with Mr Ramsay. It was not how I had figured her from the earlier descriptions, and you can sense there is something contradictory. But it goes well with the book, with the feeling that you think you know people, what they think and what makes them react the way you do, but they still manage to surprise you. It was like that to me at the end of the "The Window", when Mrs Ramsay doesn't say she loves him, but says it at the same time. What about the tyranny and the temper? You have the sense that in fact people are much more complex than that.
And the utmost irony is how even in marriage failure people can find meaning and happiness, creating a new "alliance", as is described in chapter 6 of "The Lighthouse".
Barbara wrote: "On a lighter note, I guess it was no big surprise about how Paul and Minta's marriage turned out, was it??"Barbara and Simone, I quite agree with you about Paul and Minta's marriage. Minta was very fond of her strong minded father but married an opposite.
My feeling about the Ramsays -- all through the reading -- was that they were a traditional "dysfunctional" family with all eyes closed to the fact, especially V. W. I had a hard time liking any of the characters, with the exception of Lily. She seemed to be the only one with a good head on her shoulders, by-and-by more stable than the entire family put together. (without husband and family) which was a big surprise to me.
I've always loved V.W. Her insights into people's minds are astounding in this novel. Her prose, her style, everything about her writing inspires me.
Yes, Linda. It is impressive how much she saw and transposed to the novel, to the feeling that even with that much knowledge there is still a lot we don't know. However, I had very little trouble liking the characters. I try to suspend judgment as long as possible to try to understand them. The ones I did dislike was Charles Tansley, for seeming, to me, an empty pseudo-intellectual with very strong prejudices, and Mr Ramsay at times for being so insensitive and so self-absorbed. Even with Mrs Ramsay's incorrigible vanity and self-importance, I kind of think that is the way she could exist and function in that world, and it was the best she could do. I don't admire it, but it is so well portrayed that it is understandable. And to come full circle, that is part of VW's magic.
Simone, I keep forgetting that this family lived in a different time frame. Perhaps I'v been too judgmental. Perhaps in her day, being the enabler was a necessary part of the wife and mother role. I liked your comment about being vain. I think in an earlier post I called her narcissistic with a savior complex.Speaking of the savior complex, did anybody pick up on the "Last Supper" metaphor at the dinner? Mrs. R. said repeatedly, here I am at the head of the table, serving soup. It brought to my mind Christ washing the feet of his disciples. Not only that but it was portrayed as the "last supper" before she died. Strong stuff.
Hadn't really thought of that. Some interesting images come to mind. It is a mighty meal, to be sure. It takes so long, and so many thoughts and sentences come and go. It reminds me of lunch with my in-laws. :)
Back at the summer house after ten years away, the remaining Ramsays and their guests try to adjust to the awkwardness of their loss. Mr. Ramsay seeks sympathy from Lily Briscoe, so she compliments his boots. After the expedition departs for the lighthouse, Lily puts brush to canvas. On the way to the lighthouse, James and Cam honor their pact to fight tyranny to the death. Lily again puts brush to canvas, and more. James searches the past to find his mother; Cam searches the present to find her father. Lily uses her brush to stir the plantains, and her feelings. Mr. Ramsay leaps ashore and Lily makes her mark.
And so we reach the end of To the Lighthouse. If this is your first experience of the book, I hope you enjoyed it. For those of us who are re-reading, did you find it as fresh and breath-taking as before?
What do you think about Lily Briscoe’s meditations about the Ramsays? And about the challenges facing female artists? Is Lily used as a device for Woolf to comment on art and creativity?
What did you think about James and Cam's pact to fight tyranny to the death?
(Reminder: Next book is Dorothy Richardson’s Pilgrimage: Pointed Roofs. Woolf was an admirer of her work, so if you can, please join in the read/discussion, and at the end of the third week, we can do a little compare and contrast of Richardson and Woolf.)