Queen Maas' Assassins discussion
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Captain Chaol Westfall ~ Character Discussion
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Bailee
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Aug 02, 2015 06:54PM
Aelin didn't choose to be an assassin she was kind of forced into it. Remember how Arobynn trained her and forced her to pay him an ungodly amount of money back and she was going to leave right after that but then someone betrayed her and she got sent to Endovier....
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I was having a discussion about Chaol like the thread suggests. This thread doesn't specifically say "must think Chaol Westfall is perfect and love everything he does."And love how you're trying to justify Chaol's behavior by backing up what I was saying in the first place: he's a follower. He can't do anything for himself or on his own. Dorian wanted him to come tot he castle, so he did. Either way he still gave up his family and title for no reason yet we have to hear him whine and complain about how much he's sacrificed every time his pov rolls around. Yet he did continue to serve the king despite the fact that he could've gone home at any point. & he was barely even there for Dorian in CoM and HoF so stop acting like he's this brave hero that does everything he does for Dorian.
Anna wrote: "PREACH BAILEE PREACH!! maybe tone it down in the way you answer. We all love the characters and have different opinions.. But in the end it's just a story. Love your thought process though."Ah, you're right. Thanks. I um have really strong opinions.. Sorry.
He isn't a follower. He doesn't like to be in the spotlight, for sure, but every important decision Dorian has made had to go through Chaol's aproval. (For further evidence, there's a short story about how Chaol and Dorian decided to being Celaena to Adarlan). Besides, he might not like to be in the Spotlight, but he is needed and I know he'll shine in QoS (and haters Gina hate)Chaol is flawed and I love him for it. I love that his blind loyalty is his downfall. The only reason he didn't take Aelin's side at first was because he genuinely thought she was a THREAT to Dorian and Adarlan. Even so, she did everything he could to help the best way possible. He was the one who basically figured how the towers worked and you still think he is not fit for leading? Even Celaena says multiple times how inspirational he is to his men in the Guard and how the world would be a better place with more men like him.
Basically, I still think you criticize Chaol for the flaws you love in other characters.
Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine. Agree to disagree. Let's leave at that.
I agree with you Bailee. All Chaol ever did in HoF was whine about how difficult his life while other people were struggling to adjust to being sent away to her evil aunt. Chaol never thought about how his actions effected the people he cared about, especially Dorian! In the end of HoF Chaol really didn't have to admit to being a traitor but he did, leaving Dorian to be possessed by one of the demon things. Both of them could have been fine, but instead he risked their lives just to prove a point. Honestly, Chaol doesn't even deserve to be compared to Aelin!
Sofia, Chaol discovered how the towers worked which is a major thing to restore magic in Adarlan, while Dorian was in fact the one who whined during the whole book and did absolutely nothing to fight his father. If it weren't for Sorscha he'd be still trapped in his Celaena fantasy. I love Dorian, don't get me wrong, I just can't agree with your reasoning.
He gave up his power and title to go after what he really wanted. Chaol didn't want to be lord and he did have a choice just like you have mentioned unlike Dorian and Aelin, and he made is choice (yes Dorian asked him to stay, but in the end it was Chaol's choice). Chaol also isn't simply abandoning his role without thinking, he gave it to Terrin his perfectly functioning younger brother, who he only learns would not be good for the role by his father in COM (who says Terrin is to bookish). Chaol wasn't really needed in Anielle until COM, and in COM he made a deal with his father that he will go back to Anielle to become a lord, if Aelin got sent to Wendlyn, where he thought she would be safe and away from the king (he didn't know who she was at this time, and the danger she could be in going to Wendlyn). Also why do we have to classify people as followers and leaders? There are things in between. You could also be both a follower and leader, or a lone wolf. Followers and leader aren't the only 2 options. And I don't see why follower has to be a negative thing, because what is a leader that has no followers. A follower also influences a leader (it's kind of like how fans of a certain thing can influence a creator to create more of that thing). I personally think that Chaol can be a leader or follower (I changed my mind from thinking he is a leader) and I don't see how that's a negative thing. Chaol is a very moveable character, he is a character who can do or be anything. He doesn't have anything (as in title, past, or something like that) holding him back, but he does have a human mind and characteristics that will (he is stubborn, dense, and loyal these are the characteristics that I think holds him back the most). How do we hate someone for being human?
Last of all I want to all about Chaol's actions in HOF. Chaol was going through a lot of internal struggle inside HOF (having his whole world magically turned upside down and all), and in order to start helping Dorian he had to get past all that was going around inside him. But he didn't do nothing in HOF. He helped in ways he thought he should/could. He figured out how to deal with the towers, he found out what was up with Aedion, and he distanced himself with Dorian because he thought that it would keep Dorian safer (I forgot why he did this but I do remember he did do it).
Sorry it took me so long to reply, I am not very good at writing down my thoughts (writing isn't my strong point)
Every time Chaol does anything he's either whining about Aelin or complaining about everything he's sacrificed. Whereas Dorian was trying to control and conceal his magic bc you know the King, his father, has been murdering people for using magic since Dorian was a little boy. Sure Dorian found solace in Sorscha but that's only because his "best friend" all but abandoned him. You're making Chaol out to be this amazing character when he blatantly disregards his friends, doesn't trust the the people he loves-in fact he's actually scared of them, and lies to them to further his own personal agenda.
I just want to remind everyone this is a discussion not an argument, let's try to keep things friendly. (It's getting a but aggressive honestly)
Exactly, Priya. Chaol is a dynamic character and he could either become Dorian's most trusted friend and counselor or a leader on his own. Personally, I think he'll be one of the leaders of the rebel forces and possibly recruit the White Fang Folks to fight against the king's army. And If everything goes as I hope, maybe he'll become Aelin's consort ☺️
Em I was also thinking he would probably be some kind of rebel leader. I'm not quite sure it will be with Aelin though because Aelin fights for Terasen, and Chaol for Adarlan. So the White fang folk could be a pretty good option (unless they're with Aedion and are going to fight with Aedion)
Dorian is not that great either. He even adimited in Crown of Midnight that he started pursuing Aelin because Chaol wanted her. However, despite this and his other many flaws, I still apareciate his character. I am not trying to make Chaol look perfect. He isn't and I love that he is flawed and realistic. I just don't understand how people can hate him while also loving the others who are even more flawed. Is it because Chaol got in the way of their ships? Idk.
Priya, I think Aelin and Chaol will let things out in QoS. They might not end up together romantically now that Rowan is an option, but I guess they'll finally stop being idiots and realize they are fighting on the same side against the king.I mentioned the White Fangs Folk because Sarah has been pinning some suggestive things about it, só I though that Chaol go back to Anielle to recruit them. After will, they hate the king.
I thought Chaol might* go back to*****
I highly doubt at this point that Chaolin will be a thing "while celaena would always pick him, Aelin would not." I'm not sure why but I have this feeling the rebels will split apart. If Dorian is freed from the collar Chaol will go and stand beside Dorian, and Adarlan, not Aelin, and Terrasen. I think the rebels will make a similar decision and pick a side. The priority right now is to save Aedion and Dorian, then the towers, then the king that is the common goal. But things can change, priorities can change, and I don't think two different forces (the Terrasen rebels, and Adarlan rebels) can stay together for a long period of time. It's impossible that they won't have a conflict.
Priya, I see your point and as of right now I agree with you. However, lots of things can change in QoS, so I'd rather wait to see how Sarah will write the whole rebellion thing.I don't see Chaol leaving Dorian either, but he might do it once they defeat the king and make sure Dorian's safe (like, in the end of the series). I am a Chaolin shipper, so even though she probably will end up with Rowan, I still hope for them to get back together haha
Priya, I see your point and as of right now I agree with you. However, lots of things can change in QoS, so I'd rather wait to see how Sarah will write the whole rebellion thing.I don't see Chaol leaving Dorian either, but he might do it once they defeat the king and make sure Dorian's safe (like, in the end of the series). I am a Chaolin shipper, so even though she probably will end up with Rowan, I still hope for them to get back together haha
I explicitly stated why I dislike Chaol's character and it had absolutely nothing to do with ships. Neither did anyone else's opinion against Chaol. I also thoroughly explained why I can love Dorian and Aelin for being flawed whilst simultaneously disliking Chaol for the "same thing". Stop trying to make other people's opinions look petty and insignificant just because they don't ship Chaolaena or Chaolin or whatever the hell it's called these days. Our opinions have nothing to do with ships so don't even bring that up.
Not everyone who likes Chaol ships chaolaena or Chaolin. I just wanted to mention that.
If you dislike a character, why comment on a thread meant for people who appreciate him? It's like those haters on tumblr who post hate on a character or actor/actress tag. I don't know if I am a weirdo, but I don't go on the threads of characters I hate to tell people who love him why I think they suck. :/
I fucking love Chaol. I will defend him to my GRAVEI don't know how many times I've stressed this in the past year but everyone's always been asking for a character who puts friendship, and family over romance. Chaol's top priority is Dorian. To him Dorian is his family, and Ardalan is his home, so he will defend it. Celaena/Aelin posed a threat, and so he had to do what had to be done: get rid of her. And that must have been extremely hard.
I personally think Chaol just isn't the strongest character even if he discovers the thing with the towers. It's not that I hate him, because I don't, I just think he's more flawed than the others
I don't think he's the strongest character either but I still love him for the reasons Kate stated.
Because I enjoy the books and I think I have just as much a right to discuss a character here as anyone else. If you want to make a thread that says "Chaol Westfall lovers" or something like that, by all means go make it. You won't find me anywhere near it. However, this thread just says Chaol Westfall and it's a place to discuss the character, which I've been doing. Just because you can't stand to see opinions that differentiate from your own doesn't mean that I don't have the right to share them. As you'll notice not everyone on this thread loves Chaol, either. We love the book. I'm terribly sorry if my opinions seem weird to you. :/
Not everyone on the thread loves him, but they are polite about it :)Bailee, we won't agree and this is going no where, so I am going to be the bigger person here and ignore you from now on. Post all the hate you like.
Idk if this adds anything to the convo really but think about it... While Chaol was captain of the guard, he really had no opportunity to start standing up to a monarch. I never really got the feeling that he agreed with the king but it's not like he could do anything in rebellion. First off, he knew little about any rebellion groups that may have been taking place so if he were to take a stand, he had no idea that anyone may be behind him. Yea, maybe he could've taken that risk anyways but why should he when he knows it will 100% lead to his death if there isn't a sufficient amount of people standing with him. I don't think it's in any way cowardly of him.
Also, he didn't want to jeopardize his position. That sounds kind of selfish but it's not. The reason he wanted to keep his position was not for himself but for others. He wanted to be there for all of the guards he commands. I don't know about you but I always got the feeling that Chaol cared for his guards kinda like brothers. He also wanted to be there for Dorian. Dorian is his oldest friend and, whether Dorian needs him or not, Chaol wanted to be at his side at all times.
Lastly, I don't think that Chaol "whined" at all... If I remember correctly he was just extremely unsure if things which is understandable. He just found out that his love was Fae, his best friend had magic (did he find this out? I'm sorry I read this a while ago and need to reread lol), and he was now supposed to move back to his family. He is very shaken up. But, even in his confused state he still making meetings with Aedion, still trying to help Dorian and still trying to make things right. Considering this, it seems to me that Chaol was not whiny and was in fact pretty productive in HOF.
So that being said, I think it's unfair to say that Chaol is a follower, not a leader. He just hasn't had the opportunity to be a leader yet for justifiable reasons. Maybe he will still remain a follower but, as of now, it's unfair to judge him so harshly. My hope is that in upcoming books, Chaol will realize his ability to stand up for what's right and he will become somewhat of a leader figure. I'm not saying that Chaol is the absolute best character ever, I'm just saying that he really does pull his weight in the books and he should get more credit.
*sorry for spelling errors lol
Damn my internet disappeared for a minute and I was starting to freakNo need to thank me, Em, it's my please to defend my baby~
I know he isn't the strongest, but I think he's the most realistic and believable, and so god damn well written. I just love him. I have my own character in a captain of the royal guard position I named Westfall, in honour of my so imperfect he's perfect Chaol~
On another note, I'm forcing my sister to read Throne of Glass for this booketubeathon and she WILL ship Chaolaena/Chaolin. She lives in the same room as me, so havin different opinions will be as awkward as heck.
Frances, you basically said everything I meant to in a much more elequent way ☺️☺️☺️☺️
Different opinions are annoying, but they can be good at times. Opens your eyes up a little more whether it's more to your cause or less.
Oh Frances you put things so, so nicely~
@Kate good luck! I hope your sister loves them together as much as we do.
Oh, she better love them. She sleeps 3 metres away from me so if she doesn't she won't want to go to sleep at night!
Wow... you really cameback to the main point XD Ok, This is my opinion: Chaol's life is not about Aelin's feelings or Dorian's problems... If he didn't choose a side, it's not because he's the worst fictional character of the books, it's just because Sarah J. Maas wanted it in that way, and she surely has to have a damn good reason (I hope she has).This is not a "We Love Chaol fanclub", but most of us think he deserve a chance. I'm not generalizing.
I personally think not everyone needs to choose a side instantly. I'm fine with some characters being doubtful; if nobody's realised it yet it's pretty normal to have plenty of doubtful people amongst a group. Most people are indecisive about one thin or another, and I think being slightly indecisive about whether to pick his friend of his love creates a nice and realistic range of characters. I think that's Maas' reasoning, to make sure she has different characters that aren't al copies of each other
I see a lot people talking about ships in terms of what's best for Aelin or that Aelin isn't Celaena. I'm looking at it from Chaol's POV. He has no home, no job, and no one left to turn to except her. Yeah she's changed. She's embraced her future but hasn't forgotten her past. New skills to go with the old. Personality wise she's still the same person. And in book time it's only been 3 months. I'm not saying they're gonna fall right back into it, Like they're gonna have the time anyway, but they deserve a second chance. I won't give up on them.
Precisely! I think Aelin's grown as a person. When Nehemia died she was still quite immature. In understand her initial blaming of Chaol, but there was no reason for her to continue to be so spiteful (the scene where he found her will made me want to cry so much). I think now she's grown she will be able to look past all this and actually take a look at the reasons behind his actions. Aelin lost everything a while ago, but she's building it back up. She's got friends now. Chaol's got nothing anymore, and I think she'll be able to sympathise slightly, because she knows what it's like to loose everything. I know she was 8 and he was a grown man, but still, that doesn't make losing everything any easier.
Exactly! The reason why Chaol is my favorite character is precisely because his storyline doesn't revolve around Aelin and being the perfect man for her, like we see in every other YA book.
Yes! I'm tired of these immature romances, I love that we can have an actual fantasy story!
God he is sexy.
I feel as if something huge is going to happen to Chaol in QOS because of what you said, Alexis. He has nothing.
Let me first say to Em about how Chaol being special because his storyline doesn't evolve around Aelin and being perfect for her and praising her like a goddess - word to tha! He wasn't at a (dangerous but spiritually healing) retreat for a month figuring out his own stuff, he had to act fast and deal with consequences as we go.Attention, long post and loads of spoilers!
Maybe I'm a sucker for the human characters, who seemingly have nothing special to offer, but I kinda always understood Chaol and his attitude. Did I always like it? Nope. But I did understand it. When Aelin found Chaol (not to mention it was after weeks of her already being back in town), she never approached him nicely, she was just as vicious as he was, but maybe it was a way of them both realising: now, they can truly never be a normal girl and boy, now there is no way to freedom anymore
Aelins Chaol-connected worries were:
-how to tell him that her heart was healed and there was no room in there for him (such a small heart indeed and as if that was at the top of his worries)
-that Dorian has to be killed, cause there is no hope for him
-that Dorians situation is Chaols fault- cause he fled (cause if he didn't, he could probably make 2 steps towards the king before they killed him and gave Dorian the collar anyway, in a room full of demons - that would have been such a perfect sacrifice, right, very useful?)
- it is also Chaols fault that Aedion was imprisoned, cause of Wyrd knows what...
And then he called her self-centered and a bit of a monster. Cause he was angry, cause he believed in her and hoped she'll have some backup coming back, but all she did was turn up alone to glare at them (and be nasty to Nesryn!) while they're saving people - oh yes, I said it.
Chaol, this person that loads of readers hate so passionately, cause he was mean to Celaena many times throughout the books (need I remind you of Rowan in HoF, lol?), but who:
-was the one telling her to "get up!"
-was the one who saved her life
-was the first one who apparently kissed every one of hers scars!
-was getting her chocolate cakes
-was the one who had nothing else to give, but gave her his love
-was the one going crazy always waiting for her to return safely
-was the one whos initial alliance lays with Dorian and Adarlan, but chose to be a friend to both, Dorian and Aelin and help both Adarlan and Terrasen, because he believed there could be peace between them.
-was the one who sacrificed himself to save Fleetfoot and help Celaena and Dorian run away from the portal she opened
-was the one who told her he loves her AFTER the portal when he saw she was demi-fae and lethal!
-was the one who sacrificed his own freedom, so she could have hers going to Wendlyn
-was the one who told Aedion
-was the one who got Fleetfoot to safety!!
-who helped the rebels by saving innocent people
-who protected Dorian when even Aelin didn't want to
-who sacrificed himself for them
Did he do stupidities too? Oh yes! So did any other person in those books. But he is my favourite character, and I don't get all the hate he gets from readers, cause he is a normal, flawed human and he is the biggest hero of them all, because without any kind of magic, he did as much as he could to protect the people of their world and keep anyone from killing Dorian. And he did those two things like people do: messy, angry, heartbroken and flawed.
I hope he gets more credit for it in some alternate universe and that now that Mass managed to sink that stupid ship, she can bring back the Chaol from ToG, who was actually an awesome captain and swordsman and fierce warrior! Just like the 9-year-old Dorian described him to be!
There, I said it! :D
Tash, I completely 1000% agree with you! I never hated Chaol. And I just read ToG and CoM and just saw all the things that Chaol did for Celaena and how he loved her. He gave up everything for her. He bargained with his father to help him send her to Wendlyn where she would be safe and make him go back to Anniele, which he absolutely hated. He put his friendship with Dorian on the line for that too. He gave up everything he ever knew, finally realised the stuff he had believed about magic all along was wrong, and the king he had served so loyally was evil, and finally stood up to it. Then he was going around, saving rebels and people from the butchering blocks and killing demons, putting his life at risk. And then he damn sacrificed himself at the cattle so Aelin could deal with Dorian. How he acted in most of QoS was legitimate anyway. He had suffered so much, everything had changed, even the girl he had once loved, and she was telling him that it was all his fault and there was no hope for Dorian. Chaol hated himself. Chaol is honestly a beautiful character, he is so unfailingly loyal and all, and his flaws make him who he is. I don't see anyone hating Aelin for her flaws. Chaol deserves so much more.
Lexi you make me want to give you a big hug for this! It makes me weirdly happy to see that some do appreciate the flawed characters and their struggles. Nobody should hate on people for their flaws and bring up bad decisions they might have made in the past when they are so obviously trying to change. His attitude in the last book might have had to do with him trying to keep her away, so he wouldn't hurt, that would be a rather human thing to do. And, to those who like to say he was pathetic, I'd ask them to go love someone like that and then feel peachy when you see them and all they have to say to you is that they blame you for everything + they're planning on killing your friend, the friend who you swore to protect and who would never hate on you like that.
It was never indicated why it was ok for Celaena to almost kill him for Nahemias death + her standard stuff: I'll hunt you down, I'll kill you, I'll kill everyone you love..., but it was not ok for him to be slightly mean to Aelin after she waved a sword at Dorian... and MENT it? Well it is a great indication of the age difference between them too. Mh! double standards! haha
Like you said, Chaol deserved more and I hope he gets it in the future.
Lexi and Tash I agree so much. I also want to mention that in QOS Aelin already had her character development and Chaol had yet to have it. But Chaol the person who didn't have his character development is hated on for his behaviour when Aelin with her character development is glorified for similar behaviour. (also what irritates me is at the end of COM Chalk had development but it was erased in HOF and at the end of HOF Chalk had Character development but it was erased at the beginning of QOS. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if his character development is erased again in TOG 5 (it makes me very sad to say this))
Yes I see what you mean Priya.
No one hating on Aelin for her flaws? I so disagree. Maybe you don't see it, but she's bashed so badly after QoS in social media. I kind of think a lot if people didn't like her to begin with and after QoS it all made it worse. But whatever, I guess. As for Chaol, yes I agree he had a great character development and no, I don't think it was erased at any time? I think he went through different situations every time and he realized things as the story went on and now he's a fully developed character.
Tash, I want to marry ypur comment
@Em lol@Tash & Lexie beautifully said. Ashamed to say that I immediately hated Chaol for what he (view spoiler) but then again, it wasn't really his fault.
I hope that him and Dorian can patch up their wonderful broship :,)
I miss poor Chaol. He's just been cut out of the story sooo much lately and... he's so awesome. Chaolaena is a thing of the past for me, but I still love him.
