Miévillians discussion
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SECTION 2: Chapters 4-6
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Hmm, could be - but maybe just another difference - and nothing is complete without context , so maybe its just that the historical context is fractured as well? ie another example of the fracture.CM hasn't said if the grosstopical boundaries are fluid or immutable. I kinda wonder about that. We get a sense of a static status quo, was it always like that? That would influence the archeological placings. I also wonder if the BZs haven't looked for remains as well as UQ.
Andrea wrote: "I also wonder if the BZs haven't looked for remains as well as UQ. "It does seem from the text that Ul Qoma is way more into preserving history than Beszél. So maybe you are on to something!
I'm pretty sure the boundaries are considered immutable - at least in the same sense that any nation's borders are. They have had two wars - which I imagine could result in the ceding of certain real estate."There are those Besź who will say ... that had we had half as rich a seam of historic rubble as Ul Qoma ... we would simply have sold it off."
The implication, then, is that they haven't sold off the historic rubble, and they must have been looking for it, but they never had it.
Another implication - which is a preferred interpretation of the Ul Qoman nationalists - is that somehow the greater link to the past civilization makes Ul Qoma the true decendent of that older city, and Besźel is somehow just a bastard child. (Though that's just my interpretation of "Books and conferences bicker over whether that preponderance is coincidence of scattering or evidence of some Ul Qoman specific thing (the Ul Qoman nationalists of course insist the latter)").
Andrea wrote: "Second read I can see how beautifully the clues are scattered, in plain sight, yet camouflaged. ."That sounds like something Gene Wolfe would do. Have you read anything by him? :)
This is my first read, btw.
I'm finding it interesting how deeply he roots the story in the real world, even to the point of having Borlu have purchased something from a real bookstore in our world with a clickable link (if you're reading an e-book) and all...
Hmmm, i'm really getting the idea that i should finish the book completely before embarking on the discussions. I'm almost there!Btw, did everyone also notice that Ul Qoma's architechture seems to be fashioned in a Persian style, with the twirled and picturesque minarets and towers - or Orhthodox Russian, maybe?
Traveller wrote: "Btw, did everyone also notice that Ul Qoma's architechture seems ..."yes! ornate, definitely arabic/persian/russian fusion. Maybe this was chosen purely for the contrast of the two cities, maybe means something deeper. I'd vote for the former, by nature I'm wary of imagining meanings that aren't actually there (paranoid about not being paranoid, comes with the territory of my work I guess)
Traveller wrote: That sounds like something Gene Wolfe would do. Have you read anything by him? :)
..."
oh yes, very beautifully constructed. Read The Fifth Head of Cerberus and of course the Long Sun series.
Traveller wrote: "...Ul Qoma's architechture seems to be fashioned in a Persian style..."It's also more ethnically mixed (more Asians, Africans and Arabs, and it has spicier food).
Cecily wrote: "Traveller wrote: "...Ul Qoma's architechture seems to be fashioned in a Persian style..."It's also more ethnically mixed (more Asians, Africans and Arabs, and it has spicier food)."
That's the Bulgarian influence (I'm leaning towards Besźel/Ul Qoma being on the west coast of the Black Sea, and my wife's family is Bulgarian - they know spicy!)
I'm starting to think he simply mixed up Ul Qoma so much that we cannot identify it to make any direct comparisons. . It might even have been done purposely to save his own butt from controversy if hidden criticism was detected in his work- you know how people are.At a stage i thought Ul Quma had quite an American culture, but the facism and the police brutality? Mind you...
..but i suppose this should rather be discussed in later threads for fear of posting spoilers. :P (Unless we can make it very general).
Traveller wrote: "I'm starting to think he simply mixed up Ul Qoma so much that we cannot identify it to make any direct comparisons..."I think you're right. I haven't devoted much thought to where it might represent, partly for those reasons, and also because my knowledge of the likely places is insufficient to make a reliable judgement.
Miévillians
Books mentioned in this topic
The Fifth Head of Cerberus (other topics)Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (other topics)
"Documenting" the differences is probably about as useful as the over-analyzing we all had to do for books in school, but I keep tripping over things that nag me towards deeper analysis.
In this section we learn that Ul Qoma has numerous archaeological digs dating to before the Cleavage - but Besźel does not. There must be some significance to the fact that almost all of the items dating to their shared pre-Cleavage history exist only in Ul Qoma.