Miévillians discussion
This topic is about
The City & the City
The City & The City Discussion
>
SECTION 1: Chapters 1- 3
Nice issues and comments, Derek.Re location, during my re-read, I started to wonder whether it was based on Istanbul, even though it is mentioned as being somewhere else.
Even the history of its name, changing backwards and forwards between Istanbul and Constantinople, reflects swings in religious dominance.
Re the buildings, I see them as symbolic of institutions that lean over our shoulder and watch us Big Brother-like. Casting shadows behind us.
As with the painting in my review, buildings and the culture that resides in them shape us.
Derek wrote: "I am obsessed by Beszel's physical location. "I always assumed it was somewhere in the vicinity of Czech Republic/Slovakia/Hungary area.
Ian wrote: "Nice issues and comments, Derek.Re location, during my re-read, I started to wonder whether it was based on Istanbul, even though it is mentioned as being somewhere else."
Yes, I'd thought that was a good possibility - one would certainly expect Muslim refugees from the Balkans to be being pushed back towards Turkey. Besźel/Ul Qoma are, of course, not really anywhere in our universe, but I suspect he used at least one real city as a source. The other possibility, is that it's based on London - as most of his cities seem to be!
Another reference mentions Bucharest and Turkey in the same sentence or paragraph, which might suggest somewhere along the Black Sea (it's not inland, as it has an estuary - but that doesn't mean he didn't use an inland city for source material).
Even though the shadows of things that weren't there are very strange on first read, I'm fascinated by the fact that you can't See the things that aren't in Besźel, but you can See their shadows!
At one point, Corwi says:"I was young. It was a conference. ‘Policing Split Cities.’ They had sessions on Budapest and Jerusalem and Berlin, and Besźel and Ul Qoma."
I'm not sure why Budapest is mentioned. Buda and Pest are two separate cities, separated by a river, but I wasn't aware that there was a political distinction at any point.
See also:
"TO FLY TO BESŹEL from the east coast of the US involves changing planes at least once, and that’s the best option. It is a famously complicated trip. There are direct flights to Besźel from Budapest, from Skopje, and, probably an American’s best bet, from Athens."
Interestingly, "Sixty-eight BudapestStrász is a unificationist HQ.”
Re Istanbul, see:
“You’ve got one option. You’ve been to Besźel. You’ve lived in Ul Qoma. There’s one place left. Come on. You going to live anonymous in Istanbul? In Sebastopol? Make it to Paris? You think that’s going to be enough?"
Derek wrote: "Even though the shadows of things that weren't there are very strange on first read, I'm fascinated by the fact that you can't See the things that aren't in Besźel, but you can See their shadows!"I wish I'd said that, Derek. (I will, too, I will.)
Ian wrote: "At one point, Corwi says:"I was young. It was a conference. ‘Policing Split Cities.’ They had sessions on Budapest and Jerusalem and Berlin, and Besźel and Ul Qoma."
I'm not sure why Budapest is..."
Well, it's kind of hard to find many examples like Besźel and Ul Qoma. I don't imagine there was ever much joint policing of Berlin - perhaps in the few years before the wall; Jerusalem probably does have some similarities, but if you're going to include Budapest, you might as well include Minneapolis-St.Paul, or the Kansas Cities, or any number of cities separated by a river.
I hope you don't mind me telling an OT story that might give you some insight into my interest in this novel.When I was in my last year of secondary school, I had a very innocent relationship with a girl who was the School Captain of one of Brisbane's private Girls Schools.
She and her best friend and I started up a Junior United Nations (Brisbane Branch).
Every month, we would meet at the friend's parents' home on the north side of the Brisbane River.
However, the branch became quite popular and soon enough girls from a Girls School on the south side of the river started to turn up to meetings on the north side.
Anyway, after six months of this, the girls from the south asked if we could have every second meeting at one of their parents' homes.
Guess what? My friends said no, and the Junior United Nations (Brisbane Branch) broke into the North and South Sub-Branches.
It was at that point that I left for University in Canberra, where my ambition was to be a diplomat.
At the same time, they started shooting diplomats and throwing them out of planes, so I ended up buying a doughnut store and I've never looked back.
If you have a look at my review of "Prague", there is some history about my interest in Budapest.
Sorry for the distraction. Carry on.
I should mention that, in those days, people on the north side of the river couldn't "see" people on the southside, even though in my case those south side girls were better looking (if not as smart).
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your little bio, Ian!
What about you cry at the fact, but laugh at the telling? ;)
The thing I like about what CM has done is that he has abstracted his political vision, so that any overt analogy with real cities has been obscured.However, Derek's comments about West Berlin have reminded me that Berlin was actually split into four sections, three of which were occupied by the Allies.
When West Germany was formed in 1949, West Berlin was supposed to form part of it (as from 1950). However, that required the consent of the Soviet Union, which was withheld.
Therefore, West Berlin remained under the legal jurisdiction of the three Allied nations, which was exercised by three Western Allied commanders-in-chief.
Thus, the powers that had been ceded to external forces remained ceded until 1990.
The Wall separated East and West.
I wonder whether the Breach is an abstraction of the Wall and those who administered it, although in reality it was constructed and administered by the East Germans.
Still, there were armed forces on both sides, more or less on war footing, casting shadows on the no man's land on either side of the Wall.
Ian wrote: "I should mention that, in those days, people on the north side of the river couldn't "see" people on the southside, even though in my case those south side girls were better looking (if not as smart)."Thanks for sharing Ian. I've often thought my own schisms - felt and observed - have defined who I turned out to be, and they often define a culture or even a country. You might say we in the states are currently being re-defined by a schism in political party ideology. In that respect, CM's abstraction serves to set up both past and future analogies ... He's a genius.
Interesting comparison between Breach and the Wall. I never researched the jurisdictional control of it, but now that you all have been detailing it, I think later on in the book the situation could become a closer parallel?
Cecily wrote: "But he DOESN'T include all the punctuation to serve as the natural conversational pauses. Just taking the section in bold, wouldn't it be hugely improved with a couple of commas..."I have to admit, there are sentences I stop and sort out from time to time. Not something I really thought of before, but now that you mention it, my old newspaper editor would have made me split such ramblings into two or three sentences!
Andrea wrote: "There is still the odd word I have to look up, so yes its still CM!"
Yep. My Kindle's lookup menu has gotten quite a workout since I discovered Mieville!
Thanks, Allen.My old newspaper editor made me split the paragraphs into sentences, too.
I know I am anal, but I love etymology and I love being able to do word searches in Kindle to track the recurrence of key words in a novel.
Thinking about the epigraph, I have no idea on the identity of today's author ... But something had been nagging me about streets and I just found it. Mieville wrote a story in Looking for Jake that had streets as a central subject. Weird streets. I won't say more in case anyone wants to read it - and you really should, it's excellent. I just think he's a big fan of cities, what makes them tick.
I'll give everybody another hint.The author has also written books about a room and a house.
I have Looking for Jake, and plan to read it here if I have the time and we don't all wear each other out.
Ian wrote: "I have Looking for Jake, and plan to read it here if I have the time and we don't all wear each other ..."Good - I got a copy, too, but it's not easy to find.
1. I do not know the author who also uses the epigraph, but I did find a cinnamon shop in the second chapter. "Signs showing directions to local destinations were bolted to the outsides of pastry bakers and little workshops, and I followed them to a tram stop in a pretty square. I waited between a care-home marked with an hourglass logo, and a spice shop, the air around it cinnamon scented."
It's the only pretty place I can remember in any of Meiville's novels.It is a moment of grace midst the complexity of inter-meshed cities. As Borlu boards the tram he overlooks the "... double streets, doppelganger streets, mendacious and delusive streets." as he "...(stands) close to the window and (sees) right out into the city,into these unfamiliar streets."
2. I imagine Meiville wants to write a mystery novel with strong female characters to please his mother. I even wonder if the cinnamon scented shop is a memory of an earlier time in his mother's kitchen eating cinnamon rolls.
We are discovering evidence of The Cities like a detective takes photos of the crime scene, one picture at a time and later puts them into a meaningful whole.
I've also noticed several ways in which Borlu "innocently" Breaches. It's dangerous, but must happen to everyone at times. One event occurs when little old women appear in the crosshatch and see Borlu as he sees them and the lady crosses over to the other city.(p12). Borlu wonders if this lady has something she wants to tell her. I will look for little old ladies or women with scarves carrying bags from here on.
Borlu also likes sneaking peeks at people in trains as they pass his apartment window(p.25). It makes me wonder if something dangerous is going to happen on a train in the future.
Beautiful, Annie. I'm on my walk. If it's in this section, could somebody post the DöplirCaffé description, please.
It is:"A common form of establishment, for much of Besźel’s history, had been the DöplirCaffé: one Muslim and one Jewish coffeehouse, rented side by side, each with its own counter and kitchen, halal and kosher, sharing a single name, sign, and sprawl of tables, the dividing wall removed. Mixed groups would come, greet the two proprietors, sit together, separating on communitarian lines only long enough to order their permitted food from the relevant side, or ostentatiously from either and both in the case of freethinkers. Whether the DöplirCaffé was one establishment or two depended on who was asking: to a property tax collector, it was always one."
I love those coffee houses!
Isn't this what life is about? Unification? Sharing? Love?
Ian wrote: "Isn't this what life is about? Unification? Sharing? Love?"I'd like to think so, and bleak as Miéville can be, I think he'd like to think so too.
Derek wrote: "I'd like to think so, and bleak as Miéville can be, I think he'd like to think so too."Funny, I haven't really envisaged CM as bleak. I was really excited when I read PSS. Not that I've read anything else.
Thanks for finding that text, too.
Ian wrote: "Derek wrote: "I'd like to think so, and bleak as Miéville can be, I think he'd like to think so too."Funny, I haven't really envisaged CM as bleak. I was really excited when I read PSS. Not that ..."
I don't actually find any of the stories, as a whole, bleak, but as Annie said above, there are no "pretty" places (which I hadn't actually thought about before she said it).
Besźel is all very old and run down (though Ul Qoma is more modern); New Crobuzon seems like it's on the downside of a millenia-long run. The Londons of King Rat, Kraken and Un Lun Dun all seem to be run down.
I guess I'd say his stories aren't bleak, but his settings tend to be.
As for finding the text: the hardest part was remembering where the umlaut was so that I could search in the e-text :)
I think I thought you were referring to the bleakness of the characters and their circumstances. I liked Borlu, but I especially liked Corwi, as you might gather from some comments I make in a later section.
I think he does present female characters in a positive light, but there might be a difference of opinion about that.
I'd like to continue that in the later section, where there is an opportunity to discuss a physical description of Corwi (complete with photo).
No peeking, if you haven't read that far.
Ian wrote: "...I think he does present female characters in a positive light..."I don't disagree (whether this or the other CM I've read, "The Scar"), but I don't think his female characters are always obviously female. Not that I want them pink and fluffy (heaven forbid), but that I sometimes forget whether a character is male or female. Mind you, I find that with Alistair Reynolds (sci-fi space opera) as well.
I only raise the issue, because there was a feeling in the PSS Group that CM was quite sexist.But let's discuss it in the later section where I've included a photo, because you might think I'm sexist, when you see it.
Ian wrote: "I only raise the issue, because there was a feeling in the PSS Group that CM was quite sexist."And even in the reread, I didn't see that. He's a man, and like most men, writes more comfortably from a man's point of view, but I remember the PSS discussion centring on the demise of one character, and I really didn't feel her sex was part of the reason for that.
Regarding the bleakness of the landscape, now that Annie's steered me onto that path, I think it's very intentional. He likes his characters to try to rise above their surroundings.
Ian wrote: "I only raise the issue, because there was a feeling in the PSS Group that CM was quite sexist."
Really? I puzzled about this when you mentioned it in your first post already. You say there was a discussion about sexism there;- have you got a link to this sexism discussion?
Anyway, i just want to mention that this is my first read of TC&TC, and for a good part starting off, i naively thought that the 2 cities were built upon an analogy of West and East Berlin.
Of course, as you good people have already discussed, it's more subtle than that, and the cities appear to be a bit more "East" than that. I don't think we should be looking for any 'real' city there. I think it's entirely made up, and based on abstractions of realities; though, one can't help feeling that since he set the novel in our world, there has to be a specific geographic location for it.
I've been busy and ill, and therefore only sadly about 35% done with the book, so i still have a lot of thinking to do as to where i would physically place the cities. :)
Welcome, Traveller. We've missed you.There was quite a divisive discussion about whether CM regarded his female characters as secondary and token and therefore easily dispensable.
If you can't recall it, let us know and somebody will find a link.
I'm sorry to learn that you've been sick, but you seem to have emerged from your sick bed with your usual feistiness.
Ian wrote: "1. Note the epigraph from Bruno Schulz's book "The Cinnamon Shops":"Deep inside the town there open up, so to speak, double streets, doppelganger streets, mendacious and delusive streets."
As far as I can tell, this is an English translation of the title of the book that was subsequently translated and published as "The Street of Crocodiles".
I have a copy, but haven't read it yet.
The book was a big influence on another recent novel by an American woman. Anybody know who, and have you read it?"
I'd say the author was Cynthia Ozick. Even if her novel The Messiah of Stockholm is not really recent, or her most recent novel, i would say that is the most likely candidate of a book written by her that was influenced by Bruno Schulz.
Ian wrote: "Welcome, Traveller. We've missed you.There was quite a divisive discussion about whether CM regarded his female characters as secondary and token and therefore easily dispensable.
If you can't r..."
I read your first post a few days ago already and puzzled over the sexism bit. I can remember that there was a reader who accused him of sexism in their review- thought the person could never substantiate this claim - it was just a vague accusation. I wouldn't have a clue where to look for it in the PSS discussion, since i was there for the entire discussion, of course, but can't for the life of me recall it- remember that it was a looong discussion, that went over many threads; and unfortunately, i don't recall it. Maybe i'm just getting old now. :P
Can you remember the reason for this feeling that the readers had? Or did they have definite reasons for such an accusation?
OK, it's time for another hint.The word "love" has something to do with it. It is a subject matter, historically, though not only retrospectively.
Traveller wrote: "Can you remember the reason for this feeling that the readers had? Or did they have definite reasons for such an accusation?"Is my name Dr Google? Let me know if none of your search engines are working.
Ian wrote: "OK, it's time for another hint.The word "love" has something to do with it. It is a subject matter, historically, though not only retrospectively."
So, are you saying that I guessed incorrectly? :(
Traveller wrote: "So, are you saying that I guessed incorrectly? :("And not necessarily for the first time ;)
Ian wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Can you remember the reason for this feeling that the readers had? Or did they have definite reasons for such an accusation?"Is my name Dr Google? Let me know if none of your search engines are working. "
I searched the entire Mievillians, and this is what i came up with : http://www.goodreads.com/group/commen... ;)
(In other words, only this thread )
Are you quite sure you weren't thinking of this discussion? http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Derek wrote: " but I remember the PSS discussion centring on the demise of one character, and I really didn't feel her sex was part of the reason for that..."Hmm, once again, i don't remember any female character in that book dying, only male characters, and the only discussion that i can remember where CM was accused of sexism because some ill luck befell a character, was in the GR review that i pointed to above.
(This one : http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... )
I agree with you that i can in no way see how that constitutes sexism, though- i think the critic's point was that the story was told from Isaac's POV; but then, The Scar is told from Bellis Coldwine's POV, so what does that prove?
We must be careful that we (we, as in we as a society in general- i'm not addressing present company at the moment) don't become so prescriptive in our accusations of sexism that writers will be unable to produce anything natural after a while. Already there has been suggestions from critics that a novel has to follow a certain "recipe" to be deemed not sexist.
I personally think that's a load of balderdash and does feminism more harm than good.
Ian wrote: "Traveller wrote: "So, are you saying that I guessed incorrectly? :("And not necessarily for the first time ;)"
All right, so is both the name of the author AND the novel incorrect? ..or am i on the right track with the author?
You are talking about an American female author influenced by Bruno Shulz's Street of Crocodiles, right?
Well, there may be other authors influenced by him as well, of course, but i do know that Cynthia Ozick was also influenced by him.
http://www.complete-review.com/review...
Though apparently she is not the only one?
Ok, i know !Nicole Krauss' 2005 novel The History of Love.
Ha.
Traveller wrote: "Ok, i know !Nicole Krauss' 2005 novel The History of Love.
Ha."
Well done, Traveller, you may name any gift you desire.
Yaye! I wasn't too serious about the treasure hunt until it started looking really difficult. I guess you gave the game away with the word 'love', Ian.From there it was quite easy, i suppose, since it's right there in the title. :D
Can you name her husband and his book, too?
Traveller wrote: "Can you remember the reason for this feeling that the readers had? Or did they have definite reasons for such an accusation? "I think you're right. I might be confusing the threads where these issues were raised.
The main argument appears to have occurred on the thread for Scribble's review.
In my mind, the issue arose out of a discussion of Isaac's sexual interest in Lin in terms of "fetishism" here:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
At this point, the discussion was more about the personal traits of a character.
By the time it had got to Scribble's thread, it had morphed into the chauvinism of CM personally.
My use of the word "sexism" in relation to CM personally is probably an overstatement of the issues.
My apologies for my defective memory and the confusion.
I hope the group can still discuss some of the gender aspects of the relationship between Borlu and Corwi.
There are gender aspects in the relationship between Corwi and Borlu?
Andrea wrote: "There are gender aspects in the relationship between Corwi and Borlu?"There might or might not be. I just wanted to start a discussion in Section 8, given the very precise physical description of Corwi in terms of one of my favourite singers.
Nobody has posted in Section 8 yet.
I think Borlu and Cowrt are collaborators on mutually interesting project with a similar way of seeing things. I don't see romance in their future. Mutual affection yes.
Miévillians
Books mentioned in this topic
King Rat (other topics)Kraken (other topics)
Un Lun Dun (other topics)
Looking for Jake (other topics)
Palimpsest (other topics)
On "machicolation": I had to do a search when it came up to make sure he'd only used it once. I knew I'd heard that word somewhere! Oh, right, here...
I am obsessed by Beszel's physical location. The first time through, I decided it was in the Balkans, but this time I noticed that when he describes the "Ebru", he says the Muslims were refugees from the Balkans. So not there... The language looks sort of Austro-Hungarian - germanish words (except not necessarily real German, like 'feld', which is certainly German but doesn't mean 'cat') with hungarian-ish spellings and accents (like Strász). otoh, there's a lot more English used than I'd expect in Eastern Europe (the kid who greets Borlu with " 'sup, policeman", and Borlu regularly gets a local English-language newspaper). "Split" seemed like a good possibility, given Miéville's love of word-play, but it's distinctly in the Balkans.
This sentence made no sense at all to me the first time I read it: "The tram took its tracks through byways where Besźel, at least half of everything we passed, seemed to lean in and loom over us."
"Laced by shadows of girdered towers that would loom over it if they were there..." just made my brain hurt. I'm pretty sure the light finally shone when he talked about the trains that ran (or not...) right outside his window.