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Question about BJR in Outlander
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Diane
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Jan 08, 2013 10:09AM
I thought it was referring to his brother too and BJR is creepy any way you look at him. I believe it was mentioned somewhere that Alex ( Alexander) was a common name at the time and could have been referring to anyone.
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Wasn't that the name of the man that hung himself at that prison?? I think Jamie found his bible and gave it to his family ???
I was going to say that we've had this debate for a while, hahaha.He was a twisted man and I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure. Like Diane said, it was a common name, and the boy that Jamie carried his bible was also named Alexander, so it's possible that it was him that BJR was referencing.
My thing is that in Dragonfly, when (view spoiler). So, my thoughts are that he WASN'T meaning his brother.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to Jamie's middle name, Alexander.
Carren wrote: "I'm pretty sure he's referring to Jamie's middle name, Alexander."I disagree. He'd never called Jamie by that name, so why would he start in DIA? I think it refers to the young man who killed himself, and speaks to BJR's sexual obsessions.
That's what I think, Kate.Look how obsessed he became with Jamie. It's likely that he was that obsessed about Alexander (the one who killed himself).
It wasn't Randall's brother. The Alex he was talking about was another prisioner whom Randall used like he did Jamie but this Alex killed himself after Randall was done with him. Jame found his bible and told Claire that he intended to return it to Alex's mother. I don't recall off hand what book that was in.
I think that DG left it ambiguous, but I don't think that it was Randall's brother, Alex. Like Wendy said, those vibes don't seem to be there.BJR seemed to be obsessed with whoever got away from him, so it's as good a bet as any that it's the young prisoner, Alex, because he "got away", of sorts. And BJR seemed to be obsessed with Jamie in a similar way - ala Dragonfly in Amber.
Lori McD wrote: "I think that DG left it ambiguous, but I don't think that it was Randall's brother, Alex. Like Wendy said, those vibes don't seem to be there.BJR seemed to be obsessed with whoever got away from ..."
I have to agree with Lori on this one. In all the times I have read and reread these books that was never clear - but I always felt it was the young man that killed himself and the bible given to Jamie. I belong to 2 other Gabaldon groups on Yahoo - DG assistant belongs to one of them .. I will do a little research and see if I can find out if Herself ever cleared up that questions.
Jay wrote: "That makes sense that it was the boy who killed himself whose Bible then went to Jamie. Maybe BJR was also in love with him."Did the boy live long enough for Jack to fall in love? I think it was his brother and that's why the brother says that he knows that Jack has sinned but he loves him. Maybe he sinned with Alex and then was semi-remorseful but moving on to other prey that didn't make him feel guilty.
Yeah Alex was in the prison for like 6 months+ I thought
Yeah, he was there for a while and he gave him the same Proposition that he gave Jamie, except that Alex (view spoiler).That's the age old question, Carolyn, lol. We've debated that for a long time in here. I do not think it was his brother, but that 'Alex' was a verra common name back then, which DG actually makes sure to say in her books. If you remember the death roster in one of the later books a good majority had Alexander in their names. I personally never read anything that felt unseemly between Alex and BJR. They just seemed like brothers who were close despite one being 'bad' and the other 'good'. It was the ONLY time in the whole series where I saw something even slightly honorable in BJR.
I speculated about Alex the brother, too - until I read
. Then, I felt the same way that Wendy did: that even if BJR had untoward feelings of love for his brother Alex, I don't think he expressed them physically.But I do sometimes wonder if, in that awful family of theirs, if BJR wasn't very confused by "love" at a young age. And perhaps he *did* confuse his love for his brother Alex (who was probably the ONLY person who truly loved Jack/Jonathan) for something more. If pain and pleasure were somehow tied together for him because of the cruelty of their home. But Diana G doesn't go too much into it, so it's all speculation.
The boy Alex in the jail was there for awhile, but I don't remember for how long. I do think he succumbed to BJR at least once - IMO, probably for awhile. But he couldn't live with himself. And through Jamie's eyes, I think we can see why.
When I first read the books I honestly forgot about Alex MacGregor (the one who hung himself in prison), he's only mentioned three times in Outlander so it's one of those details that are easy to miss. At the end of Outlander when Jamie is recounting to Claire what Jack put him through, he says:
"I know why young Alex MacGregor hanged himself. I'd do the same, did I not know it to be a mortal sin. If he's damned me in life, he'll not do so in heaven."
Later when Jamie brings up the fact that Jack called him Alex, he shrugs it off saying:
"...I wondered how he knew my second name. Did not occur to me to wonder why he'd use it, even if he knew."
The conversation prompts Claire to remember Frank's genealogical charts and the three Randall brothers - William, Jonathan and Alexander - which definitely adds some ambiguity to it. But, I still thinks it's more likely that it's Alex MacGregor and that Claire is just drawing on what she knows. She's been inundated with Frank's genealogical charts for years and, like us, has only heard of Alexander MacGregor a few fleeting times. Like Wendy, I never got the impression that Alex and Jack were anything but close brothers.
Agreed. Re-reading, I think maybe BJR used the first Alex as a substitute for his brother (still think BJR was DAMAGED enough to harbor icky feelings towards his brother) then substituted Jamie for Alex #1. Doubt the brother partook in BJR's brand of psycho.
the other courtney wrote: "Agreed. Re-reading, I think maybe BJR used the first Alex as a substitute for his brother (still think BJR was DAMAGED enough to harbor icky feelings towards his brother) then substituted Jamie for..."I concur.
Yeah, but BJR had a sadistic streak and not just sexually. He was clearly misogynous to boot. Brother Alex may have known BJR liked boys (and men), but would he have left his wife and child with a man who didn't give two thoughts about punching a woman?
the other courtney wrote: "Yeah, but BJR had a sadistic streak and not just sexually. He was clearly misogynous to boot. Brother Alex may have known BJR liked boys (and men), but would he have left his wife and child with a ..."And he not only liked men and boys, but he loved to torture them which is so far beyond that. I'd be afraid if I were his brother Alex because if the baby were a boy (and it was) he might have his sick feelings for the baby too. Thank goodness she married again.
I really think that Alex trusted his brother to believe that his brother's love for him would supersede anything else. And I believe that to be true.Although, according to the timeline history and the books, BJR died at Culloden, thus the son never knew his "father". His mom remarried (a Jew!) and that was the son's only known father. BTW, that "son" comes into play in the Lord John Grey stories - just a mention or two, but he's mentioned in the Canadian short.
I suspect that that son will also show up in MOBY. Looks like William might have something to do with him through his military assignments... not 100% sure.
Lori McD wrote: "I really think that Alex trusted his brother to believe that his brother's love for him would supersede anything else. And I believe that to be true.Although, according to the timeline history an..."
Hi, all! He is in ECHO; remember he and William travel together to Quebec. I don't have enough information on him yet to decide just which side he is on; but, he is definitely an interesting character.
Jamies middle name is Alexander. he goes by Alex later in the series
there are multiple Alex'sAlex - was the guy who died in the prison - the one jamie took the whipping for
Jamie's middle one
BJR's brother
