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To the Lighthouse
To the Lighthouse - Spine 2013
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Discussion - Week One - To the Lighthouse - Part 1, Ch. 1 - 12
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I was only able to read the sample edition on my Nook last night, which only went up to page 23. BUT, the good news is that I just downloaded (from the link Jim posted) the entire book, so I will try to get as far as I can tonight (up to chapter 12, hopefully.)Even though I only made it up to Chapter 4 last night, I have to say that YES, reading this book definitely filled my "mind's eye with a whole universe of sights and sounds..." (Jim's quote in Message 1 of this thread.)
And I definitely could small the flowers and hear the waves.
AND, yes, even though I'm not very far into the book, I already saw the "Oedipus" in young James.
I love Virginia Woolf's writing. This is only my second Woolf read (Mrs. Dalloway was my first), but I just loved the way her prose "flows" in Mrs. Dalloway and in the 23 pages I've read of To The Lighthouse.
Although, I can already tell that I'm going to have some trouble keeping up with all of these characters. We're told of all the guests the Ramsey's invite to their home, and there are so many guests that some have to stay in town (because there's not enough room in the house.)
I don't know why the Ramsey's feel a need to invite so many guests (and it seems as though the members of the family don't even LIKE some, or many, of the guests, but I guess those questions may be answered as I read on.
Was Charles Tansley invited because Mrs. Ramsey feels sorry for him???
I love the "waves mountains high" line (on page 9 of my edition.) I've seen very high waves, but I would never think to describe them as being as high as mountains. Just one more reason to love Virginia Woolf's writing.
I finished the book and loved it! I liked the complex relationships between people- man vs. woman; (Mr. and Mrs. Ramsby; Lily Briscoe and Charles Tansley & James and Mr. Ramsby) and all the "internal-thought dialogue." I understand that "To The Lighthouse" was Woolf's way of dealing with the recent unexpected death of her mother. This was a huge loss for her and this promoted her first nervous breakdown. I read somewhere that she published "To The Lighthouse" on the anniversary of her mother's death.
Jim, I love your capsule summaries. "James watches his parents have psychic sex" captures perfectly the scene to which you refer. (Beginning of Chapter VII, particularly second paragraph.)
Just wanted to say hello. I'm a V. W. fan and am very interested in this thread. "To the Lighthouse" is a wonderful book. Looking forward to this discussion.
Mod
There are a lot of characters, but as you make your way through Part One, you'll see that all events put primary focus on Mrs. Ramsay, as center of the household dynamics and the glue holding the disparate characters together.
@Carol - Woolf's mother died when Virginia was 13. To the Lighthouse is her memorial to her loss, as well as the happiness she had growing up at the coast during her childhood summers.
@Casceil - Glad you like the summaries. They're fun to write. Keep an eye on the father-son conflict between James and Mr. Ramsay. Very interesting in this novel.
@Linda - Hello Linda! Happy to have you along for the discussion.
Mod
Second is the sense of motion and flow, both in the physical movements of the characters, and the flow of thoughts from one mind to the next. Especially intriguing is the fast-moving interior monologue of Mrs. Ramsay from topic to topic, idea to idea, and at times from interior monologue to external speech - kind of analogous to what we might call "multi-tasking", which I suppose all mothers do.
I hope you will consider continuing on the the Dorothy Richardson book, Pilgrimage: Pointed Roofs, as I'd like to compare the two writers' use of interior monologue.
Is Chapter 2 just the two paragraphs -- first Charles Tansley telling James: "No going to the Lighthouse, James," followed by Mrs. Ramsay saying "odious little man" to herself???I think it's an interesting way of making a point about Mr. Tansley and Mrs. Ramsay if an entire chapter is devoted to just this.
However, I thought I would just double-check here, to make sure that the chapter breakdowns in my edition (which I downloaded to my Nook) are not "messed up."
It's interesting the way Chapter 3 just picks right up from the very short Chapter 2, with Mrs. Ramsay trying to put a positive spin on the following day's weather to James.
I already know that Mrs. Ramsay is around 50 years old.
She refers to Charles Tansley as a "young man" (I believe.) Does anyone know how old Charles Tansley is?
I was not able to make much progress with my reading last night, due to being tied up with some work until pretty late, so I'm still only at Chapter 4, and I'm sure a lot more will be revealed to me by the time I make it up to Chapter 12 (hopefully tonight!!!)
But I'm still curious as to why Tansley (who Mrs. Ramsay refers to as an "odious little man" several times and her children do not like him either), was invited to be a guest of the Ramsays.
Barbara wrote: "Is Chapter 2 just the two paragraphs -- first Charles Tansley telling James: "No going to the Lighthouse, James," followed by Mrs. Ramsay saying "odious little man" to herself???I think it's an i..."
Barbara, I think Mrs. Ramsay likes to surround herself with unfortunate people. Mr. Tansley's misfortune is that no one can tolerate him. She especially likes younger men. "She had the whole of the other sex under her protection." She imagines that her daughters must admire her "strange severity and extreme courtasy" something like a "Queen" who washes the feet of a bum on the streets.
My first impressions of Mrs. Ramsay is that of a narcissist with a bit of a savior complex. (I could be very wrong about that, just my first impression)
She makes up a reason to go into town so she can invite Tansley with her only so she can make him feel good and admire her for that quality. What she doesn't get in fact, she makes up in her mind. Some of it is real -- Lisa admits to admiration of her -- Mr Tansley is smitten with her --but not all of her self acclimation is proven in the story so far.
I've only gotton to the 3rd chapter in this reading. And yes, chapter two is that short. Isn't that amazing?!
I see the Oedipus complex clearly in young James but does anybody else think that Mrs. Ramsay prefers it that way?
I'm loving the way VW captures the interplay between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay. There are multiple descriptions of Mr. Ramsay as tyrannical and selfish; I wonder if Mrs. Ramsay's surrounding herself with unfortunate people is a way, a passive-aggressive way, to place a buffer between herself and her husband.I also wonder if there is any reason the story she reads at bedtime is the story of the Fisherman's wife. Is that story used for a reason? I'm still working that out in my brain.
Mod
I'm wondering the same thing...
Mod
I think William Bankes mentions her in a way that captures an important part of her essence:
"Begun long years ago, their friendship had petered out on a Westmorland road, where the hen spread her wings before her chicks; after which Ramsay had married, and their paths lying different ways, there had been, certainly for no one's fault, some tendency, when they met, to repeat."
Mrs. Ramsay is the quintessential mother hen, protecting and steering her children, her spouse, her friends, and the strays her husband brings home with him. So I would label her protector first, rather than savior. If she is narcissistic, I would say she is reluctant to express it overtly, at least so far.
Lily Briscoe describing Mrs Ramsay in Chapter 9 reminds me of Albert Camus: “You know what charm is: a way of getting the answer yes without having asked any clear question.”She wants to criticize Mrs Ramsay but is overwhelmed by the willfulness of her personality. "She opened bedroom windows. She shut doors." She is the ideal woman, both to Lily and the enraptured Mr Bankes, and her spirit or consciousness seems to fill the whole house.
I also love this description of being able to read something while thinking of something else -“Mrs Ramsay wondered, reading and thinking, quite easily, both at the same time; for the story of the Fisherman and his Wife was like the bass gently accompanying a tune, which now and then ran up unexpectedly into the melody.”
I do this all the time when I read, and the comparison to music is perfect.
Mod
“Mrs Ramsay wondered, reading and thinking, quite easily, both at the same time; for the story of th..."
It is a great passage. Any thoughts about thoughts about the significance of "The Fisherman and His Wife"? I haven't had a chance to find and read the story yet.
Jim wrote: It is a great passage. Any thoughts about thoughts about the significance of "The Fisherman and His Wife"? I haven't had a chance to find and read the story yetI saw that note above and have been thinking about it. My only though so far is that maybe the Ramsays' relationship mirrors that of the Fisherman and his Wife - his anxieties are similar. (He doesn't want to be king, so she says she will)
Mod
I saw that note above an..."
Here's a link to the Grimm's fairytale:
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm019.html
I'm going to read it later today and see what I find.
(BTW, we'll be reading Gunter Grass' version, The Flounder, in June as part of our Magic Realism project.)
Here's a link to The Fisherman and His Wife that seems close to what she's reading:http://www.bartleby.com/17/2/10.html
It makes me re-think what I said above...
Mod
http://www.bartleby.com/17/2/10.html
It makes me re-think what I said above..."
jinx!!
(did you play that game as a kid?)
Jim wrote: "(did you play that game as a kid?)..."Yep! You owe me a coke...
I saw the Pitt link but the translation seems clunky.
Reading the fable, it's about a woman who wants it all and must keep expanding on her desires. Maybe the correlation is to Mrs Ramsay feeling that she might be overwhelming her guests (concurrent with reading the fable, particularly Minta) or her children, or her husband. Or that there is so much she wants to do (the bill for the greenhouse would be fifty pounds) that there seems no end in sight to it all.
Mod
I suspect there may be some link between Mr. Ramsay and the Fisherman too. I'll see what I find later.
Thank you for that link to the tale. I'll reread it ( it's been a while) and see if I can come up with anything. It could be that a cigar is just a cigar!
Jim wrote: "the hen spread her wings before her chicks"Jt wrote: "She is the ideal woman, both to Lily and the enraptured Mr Bankes, and her spirit or consciousness seems to fill the whole house."
I also thought Bankes' quote about the hen was important description of Mrs. Ramsay.
She is already the beacon in this sea of people.
Could we call Mr. Ramsey the storm? I wonder what everyone thinks of Mr. Ramsay glaring yet unseeing, raving, shouting, and gesticulating, "Someone had blundered"?
Mod
At a minimum, he's a blowhard! Yes indeed, storm is a good description for him. James certainly doesn't like him when he interferes with his mommy-time. He is harsh, blustery, and quite willing to dash his children's hopes on the rocks of reality in the belief that it will toughen them up and prepare them for the future. Yep, a real prick of a storm he is!
Also - why "someone had blundered" and not "someone HAS blundered"? The blundering appears to be all in his head, as far as I can tell. But he's soothed by the psychic sex.
Jim wrote: "Jt wrote: "Reading the fable, it's about a woman who wants it all and must keep expanding on her desires. Maybe the correlation is to Mrs Ramsay feeling that she might be overwhelming her guests (c..."This is all kind of just impressions floating around in my mind, but I didn't see an easy, direct link to the wife=Mrs. Ramsey, fisherman=Mr. Ramsey. The fisherman is rather sensible and put-upon, while the wife is a shrewish mass of greed. On the contrary, I've been getting the feeling that Mrs. Ramsey is exerting more of a gravitational pull on the reader's admiration and respect than Mr. R. Though, of course, neither is all Good nor all Bad.
Since the novel keeps coming back to this idea of the source of happiness & meaning, this inexpressible thing, perhaps it's more about the Flounder? This mystical, ocean-inhabiting creature that has the power to grant human desires? And we "fish" for it, but then can totally screw up?
Since this book is AWASH & AFLOOD with sea symbolism, I'm going to guess that a magical sea creature is making its appearance for a reason. But haven't been able to formulate exactly why. Thoughts?
Jim wrote: "...quite willing to dash his children's hopes on the rocks of reality in the belief that it will toughen them up..."Woolf is calling into question his "reality." Is this absurd man really living in "reality"? And if so, whose? ...if he were not stuck on Q and could only get to R... (At first I thought R maybe himself. But it could also be Reality...)
More broadly it seems that one of the major themes is (at least so far) the questioning of reality and authenticity. (Part of the reason Tansley is so odious, I think, is that he is not authentic, he's sort of hollow or incomplete. But this is also perhaps why Mrs. Ramsay likes him, she can fill him with her light.)
I just looked up "Someone had blundered" because it sounds like he's quoting something. It is from The Charge of the Light Brigade by Tennyson.
Rachel wrote: "Jim wrote: "Jt wrote: "Reading the fable, it's about a woman who wants it all and must keep expanding on her desires. Maybe the correlation is to Mrs Ramsay feeling that she might be overwhelming h..."Rachel, my thoughts are running along similar lines. I see the male/female roles in The Fisherman's Wife somewhat reversed in Mr & Mrs. Ramsay. And I have been thinking that the Flounder itself has more significance, but have gotten no further than you in what that might be. :)
Mod
After reading the tale, I can't really come up with any strong one-to-one relationship with To the Lighthouse at his point in the reading. Closest analogy might be between the demands the wife puts on the fisherman and the demands that the children and Mr. Ramsay put on Mrs. Ramsay to provide for their endless and assorted needs - which basically makes Mrs. Ramsay a flounder. Beyond that, it may just be a cigar.
Mrs. Ramsay is definitely conscious of being drained and emptied out by the household members and their needs.
If anyone is interested: "Best and brightest come away!" is the first line of To Jane: The Invitation by Shelley.
Erika, thank you. I knew it was Shelley, but I couldn't place it and didn't bother to look it up.
I agree that there isn't a direct correlation between Mr and Mrs Ramsay and the fisherman and his wife, but I do think the story was included for a reason. I think you folks are on to something when you look at it in a broader sense. I think it's more the idea of one character being drained by another.
Erika wrote: "If anyone is interested: "Best and brightest come away!" is the first line of To Jane: The Invitation by Shelley."I also found this link to all the literary allusions in the book, with full texts:
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/dia...
Mod
I also found this link to all the literary allusions in the book, w..."
Great Link! Thanks for that.
I'm going to add to the resources thread.
Erika wrote: "Jim wrote: "...quite willing to dash his children's hopes on the rocks of reality in the belief that it will toughen them up..."Woolf is calling into question his "reality." Is this absurd man re..."
Erika, thank you for sharing the "someone had blundered" line that Mr. Ramsay kept repeating as a reference from Tennyson's The Charge of the Light Brigade.
Mr. Ramsay's tirade and the constant repeating of "Someone had blundered" is still not clear to me. I haven't finished the book yet, but I am past Chapter 12 (and we can only discuss the first 12 chapters in this thread). I'm wondering if we'll ever find out what Mr. Ramsay was referring to.
If anyone has figured this one out, please let me know!!
Hi Folks,I seem to be stuck at around Pg 90 for a long time...For some reason, I cannot get "into" this book as much as I liked "Mrs. Dalloway"...I think it's because I read it right after I read "The HOURS", which I loved and found it to be a great companion piece...I find myself unable to keep interested or as focused while reading "To the Lighthouse"...maybe I'll pick up a 2nd wind towards the latter half??
Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
The Flounder (other topics)Pilgrimage: Pointed Roofs (other topics)
We meet the Ramsay’s and their summer guests, and get a quick sketch of the household dynamics. Mrs. Ramsay and Charles Tansley take a stroll into town. During an early evening stroll, Lily Briscoe and Mr. Bankes contemplate the Ramsays and each other. Mrs.Ramsay knits her world while Mr. Ramsay frets over his place in it. James watches his parents have psychic sex. Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay are examined from afar, in turn. Mrs. Ramsay digs deep in her psyche before she and Mr. Ramsay take a turn in the garden for a third-person dialogue.
In her introduction to the 2011 Vintage ‘Orange Inheritance’ edition, author Helen Dunmore writes:
In this first part of our reading Woolf fills our mind’s eye with a whole universe of sights and sounds and whispers and sighs. Were you able to smell the flowers and hear the waves? Does Oedipus have a competitor in young James? Can you sense Cam rushing past you like a young Artemis chasing her prey?
To avoid spoilers, please restrict your comments to Part One, chapters 1-12, page 1 – 66.