OWM: Brainwaves

[Erik]

If you haven't read up through Chapter 5, leave now. I want to talk about the first big twist in the book.

(view spoiler)[The brainwave transfer scene bugged me. I know the author tried to cut off the argument I'm about to make by saying brainwaves can only be transferred live and can't be recorded. But if I was in John Perry's place, I'd be screaming, "so you're about to kill me then?!?!"

Because to me, in that situation, I would think all the doctor is doing is transferring data from one hard drive to another. And he can tell me my consciousness is jumping to the other body, but I'm going to think it's a load of crap. And what's he's really doing is copying my consciousness over, so there's basically a second me and then he'll kill the original me while my original consciousness is still in there. And given, how pessimistic and generally skeptic Perry is at the beginning of the book, I don't understand why he wouldn't have these exact same thoughts.

Now after the transfer is complete, it's clear the doctor was telling the truth given that bit where Perry can see out of both sets of eyes simultaneously. So clearly is was a transfer of a single consciousness and not just the doctor making some sort of copy, but Perry can't know that before the procedure happens. So I think my concern is one Perry should have still logically voiced.

And it also bugs me, because Scalzi spends a decent amount of time explaining how the giant elevator into space works and how the skip drive works. Which are both entirely inconsequential to me. But he totally glosses over what many would call the human soul transferring from one body to another. (hide spoiler)]

So I really enjoyed the book as a whole but that one scene just drove me a tiny bit nuts. Anyone else have similar thoughts?

[David Sven]

There is an idea that creating a copy and killing the original is effectively a consciousness transfer. I, like you, don't buy it - but I suppose Scalzi doesn't feel the need to go into it because the idea is so popular - even though he himself doesn't buy it either obviously because of the way he handles consciousness transfer.
But I would think that all these issues would have been mulled over and pondered in the time between when you sign up and the time you go into service?

[Tamahome]

I took that as a true transfer. Usually in these books it's a copy, and I'm like, 'what good is that?'

[Rick]

The soul issue is not one that can be satisfied. If you believe there's a soul and that it's more than the sum of your neural activity then you can either view this as making a soulless copy or you can assume the soul follows somehow. In the scene you're talking about the doc explains that the copy is a transfer... buy it or not. This isn't a new concern - the same debate arises in the use of Star Trek transporters. See John Barnes' A Million Open Doors series for the ramifications of this kind of tech, a debate that culminates in The Merchants of Souls.

Look, none of the tech in OMW is original in SF. Not the copying of consciousness, the Brainpal, green skin, the beanstalk, the skip drive... none of it. Scalzi uses it to tell a story, but obviously isn't concerned with diving into the metaphysical aspects or the technical details. He gives a bit of background in a way that, to me, felt natural with one of the characters wondering about it.

I do think I'd have freaked out more but at the end of the day Perry can't freak out and refuse because then the story halts.

[David Sven]

Rick wrote: "The soul issue is not one that can be satisfied. If you believe there's a soul and that it's more than the sum of your neural activity then you can either view this as making a soulless copy or you..."

Yes, or the other question, how are electrical impulses in themselves intelligent? Doesn't the brain just use them as on off switches?

[Rick]

Well a materialist would argue that intelligence and consciousness are emergent properties of a very complex networked system aka your brain. A dualist would argue that your brain is the substrate but that a soul inhabits the brain/body. Any technology that posits that a complete, faithful copy is the same as the original negates the soul idea - Star Trek transporters and the like, neural uploads, etc. To preserve the soul idea you have to assert that the copy is, basically a golem. Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon has as a subplot part of this conflict though he presents it in a biased fashion.

[Tamahome]

There's some Stephen Baxter book with transporters, but they say your old copy is destroyed every time (source), and the new copy (destination) is just a little more flawed than the last.

[David Sven]

The other question would be, where do memories reside? The hippocampus seems to be involved in memory recall, but I'm not sure how you would effect a transfer without transplanting the whole hippocampus. And even if you could - it would still be "old" - point being, I'm not sure a transfer is as simple as copying or transferring data? Or even that the electrical impulses themselves contain information any more than the electricity in a computer contains information - rather the information is generated by particular combinations of on off switches in the brain.

[Mapleson]

Scalzi spends a good deal of time talking about the space elevator and the skip drive, as these are key to the plot of the novel. (view spoiler)[In the case of the space elevator, world building about getting technology from more advanced races. (hide spoiler)]Part 2:(view spoiler)[As for skip drives, you have the whole deal with the Rraes. (hide spoiler)]

The mind transfer system is only a plot devise. (view spoiler)[However, I prefer to think of the nano-monitoring system as capable of recreating the brain fine structure in the doppelganger, thus preserving memory and emotional tendencies. (hide spoiler)] My one issue with the whole thing is that a person is defined (at least in part) by their physicality. You are not the same 'you' as when you were 16, and you would be a somewhat different you if you were a young adult again especially with some physical and mental enhancements.

However, I was willing to suspend my disbelieve and accept it for what it was, a deus ex machina to get on with the real story.

[Erik]

Rick wrote: "The soul issue is not one that can be satisfied. If you believe there's a soul and that it's more than the sum of your neural activity then you can either view this as making a soulless copy or you can assume the soul follows somehow... but at the end of the day Perry can't freak out and refuse because then the story halts."

I'm not saying the word "soul" even needs to be used or that I wanted 3-4 pages of metaphysical debate because OLD MAN'S WAR is definitely not that kind of book. I just wanted a few lines of dialogue to acknowledge that possibility. Something like:

Perry: How do I know my consciousness is really being transferred and not just copied? How do I know you're not just about to kill me while I'm still stuck in this body?

Doctor: I suppose you don't. All I can do is promise you this will be a full transfer of your consciousness. You'll understand once the transfer is complete.

Perry: And if I don't believe you, can I refuse the procedure?

Doctor: Well, no.

Perry: That's why the creche is locked.

Doctor: That's why the creche is locked... that and the aforementioned fainting.

I'm not the best writer ever, but you get the idea. I just wanted that notion to pop into Perry's head. And while I know the transfer of consciousness isn't new to sci-fi, it is new to John Perry. And he should have those same fears almost anyone else new to that technology would have.

Mapleson wrote: "However, I was willing to suspend my disbelieve and accept it for what it was, a deus ex machina to get on with the real story."

That's basically how I approached it as well. I wasn't going to let it keep me from enjoying the rest of the story. But now, after finishing the book, I'm thinking about it more and I find it odd none of the members of Perry's little clique really talks about the transfer procedure with the group, despite the fact Alan, Harry, and Thomas all have backgrounds in science or medicine. I guess admiring their new bodies and screwing like bunnies took precedence over scientific discussions.

[Rick]

Erik - gotcha. And I'm rereading the book so that scene is fresh in my head and it is a bit odd that Perry doesn't freak out more. I'll chalk it up to the fact that he was still going to get through the process and Scalzi being a fairly new novelist at the time.

[Aethelberga]

As I was reading that scene I was comparing it with Mindscan by Rob Sawyer. In that book the fact of the brain transfer was the whole story, but I realise it was just a plot device here.

[Mapleson]

More on this subject, I've now read The Ghost Bridage (Book 2), and it focuses heavily on BrainPal technology and its implications. I guess John Scalzi was saving most of the concept for later exploration where it could be the centerpiece of the story rather than a merely a tool in worldbuilding.

[Erik]

Mapleson wrote: "More on this subject, I've now read The Ghost Bridage (Book 2), and it focuses heavily on BrainPal technology and its implications. I guess John Scalzi was saving most of the concept for later exp..."

Yeah, I'm about 50-60 pages into THE GHOST BRIGADES now, and, (view spoiler)[while I think the character development is a little lacking, the ethical debates about cloning and consciousness transfer are very welcome. I also loved having the history of the CDF laid out and the earth recruiting program explained. (hide spoiler)]

[Timm]

I was wondering this same thing! The brainwave transfer issue stuck out like a sore thumb to me, since as Erik mentioned it's one thing to transfer data, memories, etc., but it's another thing to transfer consciousness. Even if consciousness is just a product of our complexly networked brain, it seems that trying to transfer a consciousness by recreating the same brain-patterns in a new body wouldn't work (from the now-deceased patient's perspective; from the doctor's they'd be fine). It's like baking a cake, eating it, baking a cake with the same ingredients, and then saying its the cake you just ate.

I recognize that this is just a hand-wave in the book; as noted, none of us were looking for an extensive metaphysical study. But I like how it brings up issues in an area of science that we're really still exploring, and yet use every day all the time-- our consciousness. I'm trying to make a video along these lines, glad to see other people are thinking the same things.

[Michael]

Erik wrote: "And it also bugs me, because Scalzi spends a decent amount of time explaining how the giant elevator into space works and how the skip drive works. Which are both entirely inconsequential to me. But he totally glosses over what many would call the human soul transferring from one body to another. "

But he doesn't really explain the skip drive or the elevator any more than he explains the transfer. It's all just handwaving. It has to be, because all three ideas are entirely fictional.

The transfer was necessary for the plot. He had to give the geezers new bodies, and had to get them into those new bodies somehow, so he made up some mumbo-jumbo to get the job done.

[Robert of Dale]

I didn't bug me too much that Perry didn't ask those questions. That's a stressful situation he's in, and he's beginning to ease into the "there's no going back now" mentality. Don't forget that he's lost his wife; that's enough to make a man shrug off the possibility that he's about to kind-of-die in a medical procedure that thousands have undergone before him.

But on the stressfulness of being thrust through this process... haven't you ever slapped yourself on the head after you left a job interview or trying to chat up someone you fancy, thinking that you were an enormous moron for not saying something that any intelligent slime mould would have thought of in that moment? As your relax, the better responses and actions you should have taken become clear. Except in the book, Perry is suddenly in a brand new, incredible, green body! There's no real 'relaxation' back into his old body's state of normalcy.

It's enough, in my mind, to excuse missing a fundamental question like that.

[Bob]

I would have liked a few lines of exposition addressing this. Why not back soldiers up before a mission, or at least after training? Why not make 100k copies of your best soldiers?

[Serendi]

In Old Man's War, backing up isn't possible. The whole brain transfer thing is discussed much more extensively in The Ghost Brigades.