You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion
Group Themed Reads: Discussions
>
Lord of the Flies - Discussion lead by C F S R
date
newest »
newest »
As the month progresses, I'll prompt some more specific points, but for those starting out, I suggest reading with these themes in mind: Original sin and nature versus nurture;
Whether ends justify the means;
Bullying and the potential of power to corrupt;
Loyalty and betrayal;
Attitudes to difference and disability;
How would the story be if it was a mixed sex or all female group?
So how have people found the first chapter or two?Although I knew the basic outline of the plot, I did find the beginning slightly confused/confusing. Was I being dim, or do you think it a deliberate ploy to make readers empathise with the boys' confusion?
It's arrived at the library!! I will be joining in very soon!!
I totally found the first half of the book confusing, like was it all boys on the plane? what happend to the plane? was it shot down or what?
Kipahni wrote: "I totally found the first half of the book confusing, like was it all boys on the plane? what happend to the plane? was it shot down or what? "I just started rereading this and have probably read it two other times over the past 40 years (yikes! - am I really that old!!!!). I don't find it confusing, but that's probably because I am so familiar with the story. The plane crashed with no adult survivors - that is just kind of inferred, not stated out right. They were being evacuated because of an impending atomic attack and they are all British school boys.
okay I see, I have a bad habit of speed reading, I remember the whole atomic attack but was unsure if that was the reason of all of the boys on the plane, and just found it odd that only the children survived.
Don't worry Kiahni. Some of the details only come out later in the story.
A third of the way through the month and I’m wondering if anyone else reading this book!Piggy is perhaps the most consistent character throughout the book (so easy to discuss if you haven’t finished it).
Despite being a victim of bullying in his previous life and on the island, he’s proud of his difference – even of the recognition given by a nickname, albeit one he dislikes.
What reaction do you think his portrayal engenders in bullies and victims who read it?
I'm picking the book up Thursday I promise :)
I've just finished the book and found it a fascinating read - was this really a children's book!! There are a lot of questions raised and some surprising violence. Perhaps the gaps in the storyline aren't important - where is the plane, why are they there? Perhaps it is more about the relationships and as for who the Lord of the Flies is - what a vivid imagination Golding has! An excellent book.
Well, it's commonly studied in English schools. My son's class (aged 14-15) are about to do so, but I think it would be unsuitable for most children under about 11 (and some over). Apart from the violence, I think many younger children would struggle to follow some of the less literal aspects of the story.
Nevertheless, it covers a lot of interesting issues which are relevant to teenagers: leadership, gangs, bullying, independence etc.
Although it is commonly studied in high schools, I don't believe it was originally published as a children's book. I think we fall into the habit of thinking any book that has children as protagonists is a children's book. When this was published, young adult literature didn't really exist. There were children's books and adult books. I'm pretty sure this was considered an adult book. I think the key issue is what is it that keeps us civilized? We see Ralph trying to maintain order (ie government or authority) and Jack and the choir devolving into savages. I think it is interesting that Golding chose Jack's group to be "choirboys" as that makes their change even more radical.
The target audience is an interesting question. Whilst "young adult lit" has become a headline genre for publishers only recently, it existed for a considerable time before that; the Victorians wrote quite a few that are still popular today (e.g. Alice, Little Women, Tom Sawyer, Treasure Island). Also, most fiction (whether book, stage or screen) has at least one significant character of approximately the age of the target audience. I can't think of any adult fiction featuring solely children and precious little children's fiction featuring only adults, so again, I'm not sure Golding intended this as a purely adult book - even if the publishers might have done. Perhaps that is one reason why it wasn't initially successful?
I quite agree about the impact of it being the choir who fall furthest from grace. :-)
Picking up your other question, what do people think is the main thing that makes and keeps us civilised, and more specifially, why is the obedient and angelic group that turn to savagery? Does the fact they have an identified leader, who isn't the overall leader once they're on the island, contribute?
I think the reason why Jacks group had more followers was because the basic need of Food was met immediatly, where Ralphs group was reasoning more with logic and wanting to be saved.( I found the symbolism in the fire to be interesting, as fire representing civilization)
Yes, food was a more urgent need, but although there were early passages where fire was described as a living creature, almost like a deity, I think hunting was just more fun. After all, we're talking about young boys! And of course there is the attraction of being in a gang and ignoring authority (Ralph's), even though in the process they bowed to different authority (Jack's).
C F S R wrote: "The target audience is an interesting question. Whilst "young adult lit" has become a headline genre for publishers only recently, it existed for a considerable time before that; the Victorians wro..."Here is a definition of young adult literature that I copied from a univeristy YA lit course syllabus:
Definition of a Young Adult Literature: Literature written for and marketed to young adults. Young adult literature is usually given the birth date of 1968 with the advent of S.E. Hinton's The Outsiders. Other forms of literature prior to this date may have had young adult protagonists (such as Huck Finn), but it was usually intended for an adult audience. (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~dniday...)
Just for fun, I took a look at several online public library catalogs to see what section they had shelved LOTF - I found it in both YA and adult, but more frequently in adult. The wikipedia article defining young adult literature mentions LOTF and Catcher in the Rye as books with great young adult appeal that were originally published for adults.
Anyway - it doesn't really make a lot of difference, as it is book that is read by young adults today - I wonder though, if it is primarily read as a school assignment, as opposed to current popular YA titles where teens can identify with the protagonists.
Well I confess I'd heard of neither The Outsiders or SE Hinton. I wonder how the definition of young adult literature would vary in a UK Engl Lit syllabus?As for cataloguing, our local bookshop has The Hobbit in its Horror section! I would hope a university library would not make that mistake.
As for why young adults today read it, I know of a couple who read it of their own volition, but I expect that for most, it's because it's a school assignment.
Reading how power drives some of the boys to extreme bullying and violence, was anyone else reminded of Zimbardo’s Stanford prison experiments and Milgram’s obedience (teaching with pain) experiments? If so, does that absolve them to some extent?See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_...
I think this is a great question. Because on one hand the main biological impulse is to survive, so the threat of bullying and violence would push anyone to conform for self preservation. However does it absolve them? I think everyone is responsible for their own actions whether or not coerced into action, one still has a choice.
C F S R wrote: "Reading how power drives some of the boys to extreme bullying and violence, was anyone else reminded of Zimbardo’s Stanford prison experiments and Milgram’s obedience (teaching with pain) experimen..."I think there is a similarity in that these experiments and what happens in Lord of the Flies both deal with the darker side of human nature. In the experiments, people are assigned a role. However, in Lord of the Flies, the boys have a choice - follow Ralph, who has the conch, which symbolizes order, or Jack, whose group regresses to a primitive state. The savagery in the book suggests that Golding believes that we could easily lose all progress we have made as a civilized society.
"One also wonders how the story might be different if it was a mixed sex group, or even an all girl group." CFSR asked this in the other forum so I wanted to kind of speculate at this question.
Now being a woman I will have a biased answer. I think that if it was a group of girls it would be a lot more egalitarian. I only say this because in societies that were more matriarchal in history tend to be more egalitarian. Also it is more of a feminine instinct of empathy so I don't think there would be as much violence.
Now I think it would be even more interesting to compare a group of American girls with a group of Middle-eastern girls. or other culture. Because it is been my observation that the girls here in Egypt grow up VERY fast here, taking on responsibiliteis of takeing care of the house and children at a very young age (I am talking like 6 and 7 years old). Where as I know in America most parents don't even leave there kids alone until there much older like 10-11.
And I have no idea what a mixed gendered group would be like. my only frame of reference is the movie blue lagoon.
If it was an all girl group (which was actually at the top of this discussion, as well as in my review on the other one), my guess is that it wouldn't have got violent, though may well have fractured into different groups. But without the blood lust, would the hunting have been successful, and if not, would they have got weak and hungry quicker? Even just writing that, I wonder if I'm relying too much on gender stereotypes.How it would be depending whether they were American on Middle Eastern girls is equally intriguing, but again, one is wary of stereotypes.
With a mixed gender group, I think all bets are off, as it would depend very much on their ages and hormones (Blue Lagoon, again).
A bit of a cop out answer to my own question - sorry!
lol it's okay.I think hunting would have been successful, though they might not be as blood thirsty, like hunting for the fun of it.
I've not finished the book yet but I'm really enjoying it. I was just wondering if anyone else watched the tv series on channel 4 called 'Boys & Girls Alone' (I think). This was about a group of girls and a group of boys being left alone for two weeks with no parental supervision. The boys wanted more fun and turned on their 'leader' who was controlling the money etc. The girls were VERY bitchy and a lot more bullying went on in the girls group.
It reminded me of Lord of the Flies and I found this article online http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/C4-r...
I didn't watch the series because of what I read about it first. The children were so young and it (apparently) got so nasty that it seemed inappropriately prurient and I half felt that watching it would be condoning the process. Perhaps I should have been braver, but what I read of it made it sound like a very irresponsible programme to make.
That's what a lot of people said. It wasn't good. I only watched the first couple of episodes. It was so bitchy and nasty I couldn't watch it anymore. Would like to have known how it turned out now though. Whether they managed to get themselves organised and stop fighting.
I think a girls group would have similar consequences as the boys group. Girls can be very bitchy and bullying. I didn't watch the Girls and Boys Alone series but read a few articles about it and it seems this is a perfect example. And children of that age are naturally 'clicky' aren't they? Just look at schools - groups of popular girls (or boys for that matter) and groups of less popular girls don't get along. It is an interesting question.
But would a mixed group alone on an island split by gender?I suspect things might end up more fragmented than in LotF: maybe a macho hunting group that was mostly boys, but also serveral others, which might perhaps have people swapping between them.
There will be a separate thread for random Lord of the Flies chat.