Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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C.J. quote:"The identity of the God of Calvinism"
It's very interesting that you claim the God of Calvinism is Dark etc.
I was just reading a biography of John Calvin, and his writings are known for the beauty of God more than the justice and sociopathic problems you mention.
I think it is a valid question CJ. I'll offer a word here, as I am not really interested in a whole thread discussing whether a certain person is a real Christian or not. I don't think poor, unholy actions automatically mean someone was not a man of God. I am fine saying Calvin was a man of God who screwed up at times. I imagine if I lived in a culture where burning heretics was accepted practice, I'd have a hard time getting outside that social conditioning (thank God for the Anabaptists in those days!). I wonder what our society accepts that our grandchildren will use to question our faith? Probably how we ignore the whole "love your enemies" deal...
On the flip side, I am not comfortable dismissing someone who has the opposite problem. If Calvin got belief right and action wrong, there are those who get action right and belief wrong. I'd recommend Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You for this.
The murder of Servetus is not that simple.What did the Old Testament say to do with dangerous heretics? Did the Church of Calvin's day assume they were living in the Endtimes or after? Did Calvin personally murder the guy? Was it during times of war? What were Calvins conditions for Servetus' execution? Was Calvin in charge? NO.
You are correct C.J. that the New Testament alone should have clearly given Calvin the clues...
The real question is: what is a crime worthy of execution? At one time God instructed that Servetus' actions were worthy of Death. Same goes for many other things - like shopping on Sunday.
So Calvin wasn't wrong with God - he was just in the wrong era and community. Now that's complicated.
CJ, I agree with you that murder is always murder and wrong. I am just saying it comes across arrogant to imply that you or I would not be just as influenced by our culture as Calvin was. If we were there in the year 1096 when Pope Urban called the First Crusade, we would have joined up. We'd both be Catholics thinking our duty is to go fight for the Holy Land.
If we lived in 1520s in Geneva, we'd think it was okay to execute heretics.
On both cases we'd be wrong. But I think we can say it is wrong while realizing the powerful pull our culture has on us. The fact that we both live in America gives us the opportunity to have free thought, read books and debate here. But we still may have blind spots (case in point, most Christians in America are more interested in defending their "rights" then in laying them down as Jesus taught).
C.J. quote:"Didn't Calvin have the Holy Spirit to convict him it was wrong to burn a man alive for his beliefs on the Trinity?"
Apparently YES. The report I read was that Calvin said the man should be executed as quickly and painlessly as possible. His request was ignored.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ananias and Sapphira?
Acts 5:5-
”When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened...
At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."
So death for heresy and lies is not really the problem (or the evil). The issue is whether God has given man the right to execute at this point in history. I'm pretty sure he hasn't given me permission.
My theory is: God can do his own killing! And many times he has.
I had the same issue when I read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the attempt to assassinate Hitler - Why did Dietrich NOT assume God can do his own killing? Are war executions acceptable? Maybe. I didn't hear alot of complaints about Saddam and Osama.
CJ, I'm going to start a new thread since we're off topic here.
Don't get me wrong C.J.: Calvin was incorrect according to the New Testament standards. The challenge was to see how a good man could come to such a mistake.So what happens nowadays if we catch a spy or a terrorist in many countries of the world? Often DEATH! So Calvin was somewhat dealing with Religion AND politics at the same time...now that changes everything. Still doesn't make it right though.
C.J. statement:
"Quoting the Bible to prove the Bible...is failed logic."
But we were discussing the contents of the Bible - not the Bible as a whole. What made you say that?
C.J. statement:"Quoting the Bible to prove the Bible...is failed logic."
Well then... wouldn't be quoting a science book to prove science be the same failed logic?
And C.J., we all know there is nothing that will make you understand. So... Just continue not believing. You don't have to. We'll continue being "not exactly wise."
you can choose to accept or reject... Clearly you reject.
Belief is optional - the after effects are not. :D
Technically in TULIP faith itself is a gift. If CJ is not elect, he cannot choose to believe. You Calvinists should know that!
It's true C.J. won't be a True follower without God's help - But he is free to respond to the truth of God in numerous ways.
I said belief C.J. - not SALVATION!The Christian church is filled with people who are not saved. Yet they chose weekly to join the clubhouse that pretends to worship Jesus. It's a very interesting problem.
Many religions BELIEVE in Jesus and the Bible C.J., that does not make them elect.
But it does! God does love the World (it says so right there!). But does he love each and every person unconditionally and endlessly? Maybe not.
Be very careful with the word "Believe". It's not as simple as you think.
Here's how you understand a Bible verse:
You take a verse and you run it through the entire Bible. Then you'll see what God is saying.
Most people have the problem of making entire religions out of ONE verse at a time. LIKE you are doing!
Yes, I could easily see the World trying to make a religion out of the Bible. Wouldn't that be wonderful!The best thing about Christianity is that it really hasn't changed it's central truth. Sure many false teachers and liberals have tried their hardest to corrupt every Word of God. But it's still there for everyone to read.
As long as we have God's Word were doing fine. Who cares what MY word is?
I am constantly checking my understanding of Biblical truth. We all make mistakes. :D
Which one is right?Easy: grab 10 different Bible translations and read them for yourself. How close are they? Why are there some small differences? How does language translation work?
What do these translations have in common?
The fun part is: If the Bible is correct - what is the enemy up to? How does Satan factor in? Is the Bible untouchable?
How many religions and beliefs borrow from the Bible? Why?
To say the Bible is just a useless book made by man is lacking. There's some weird stuff going on here.
Don't believe me over them.Read the Bible for yourself. Cross reference for yourself. Be skeptical for yourself. Trust no-one until you deem them partially worthy.
The trick is to see WHO else disagrees with you. I've noticed that Nazi's, Pedophiles, rapists, terrorists, drug dealers also disagree with me. So there's a small chance i'm correct about a few things.
CJ, I have some questions and comments for you. How do I get them to you but not on this discussion?
C.J. quote:"So much confusion...You would think God would appear and clear it up. You would think He would care that we correctly interpret and understand His words..."
He did clear it up - He gave us the Bible AND the Holy Spirit. They work perfectly!
Most of the chaos you see (and complain about) is what happens when people try to do religion without God. IF someone would rather trust a demon or Buddy instead of God himself then they shouldn't be surprised when the world falls into chaos.
God did appear a few times to clear it up: how did that work out? People started worshiping Golden statues...and later they decided it's best to just kill God altogether. I wonder what people would do to God this time? (probably have a debate and then launch him into space!)
I'm surprised God puts up with us at all.
Please share the evidence you claim is enough to support a Creator.
Thanks"
I am tied up this week, hopefully I can get that for you this weekend, if that's okay.