Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Calvinism Point by Point
Interesting choice of verses, thanks...rather than bog this discussion down, I'll address in a new thread.
Ya... Whatever you call it... It doesn't make sense to me. I could be wrong... It's happened before, but I just think that if Jesus died for the world, then that's exactly who it's for... Not some. It is a gift, though, that we have to receive. You can refuse it. I just wouldn't!
Personally I have very little angst over whether all of Calvinism is true or not - I'm happy either way! But no-one has undone it for me. What was that verse you mentioned Kris about Jesus carrying all of the sins of the world? I couldn't find it.
IF a Calvinist wants to sin then I doubt very much they are a Christian at all. As a Christian the Holy Spirit and our guilt should always kick in to remind us of righteousness. WE should desire to please God at all times.
I'll post more later.
Rod wrote: "Personally I have very little angst over whether all of Calvinism is true or not - I'm happy either way! "I'm with ya, Dude. To answer your question about the sin of the world...Whoops! the Acts scripture I left was the wrong one... It was for something else... sorry. The others were right, But John 1:29 says: "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
All over in the book of John (5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25, 11:26) Jesus says (in a nutshell) whoever believes in me shall have everlasting life... (This same message is repeated in Romans 3:26, 4:5, 10:10) to me, that sounds like some responsibility is on us to accept and believe what He says is true and we will be rewarded with everlasting life.
I read one man's blog about the topic and he made a very interesting point that if God chose people before they had the opportunity to choose/removing that opportunity to choose... then where's His GLORY in That? The fact that His people choose to turn from a life of selfishness and sin and To Him is very glorifying. I kind of agree with that. I'm sure it's more than that, but it does make sense to me.
Ultimately, if it is God that "selects" us, then I guess who am I to argue with how the Almighty works, but Jesus did die for the World and I firmly believe that the entire world has an opportunity to accept His gift or not.
Hi, I'll be having some study/seminar session and need John Piper's E-BOOK The Justification of God: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Romans 9:1-23). Anybody willing to lend it to me? thanks
LINKp.s. I am willing to share my books as well :)
p.p.s. hope this post is not spamming, apologies
I haven't come across that John Piper book yet. I'll have to go find it.I'm reading a book by Norman Geisler called: "Chosen But Free". So far it great! I agree with him very much that God is a little over our heads on this issue. Why wouldn't he be - He's GOD.
John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
Our free will is NOT enough.
But wouldn't this give Judas a free pass on his betrayal of Jesus? If he could not do what was right because God did not "elect" him, how could he, or anyone, be held accountable for committing sin?
It is one thing to NOT find salvation, it's quite another to WANT to sin. Even those who are not saved have the ability to do Good.
I agree that free will is not enough. I also agree that God has to come to you for you to want to want him (not to be confused with Cheap Trick). I just think that it's both. He comes to us all. All of us are given an opportunity to make a decision. Yes or No. Unfortunately, most are so engrossed in their sinful lives, they don't want the light. They'd rather have what they know, than venture out into the unknown where there is ridicule and condemning voices ready to tell you how poor of a job you're doing as a "christian."
Thankfully for us Christians, God understands that we are still human and grants us one heck of a learning curve.
I believe God does call all of us. At that point, we have to make the choice to answer the call (faith)or reject Him. In John 3:16, it says, "God so loved the world" and, "that whosoever." To me, that says God's call is for everyone. I'm glad we are having this discussion, I'm trying to learn various arguments and the support for those arguments.
C.J. wrote: "If you are trying to make logical sense of Calvinism, it will never happen my friend."Sometimes, CJ... Sometimes when I read your comments, all I can do is smile and shake my head.
I imagine it is shaking with a smile, as though you are amused by stubbornness. I am with you in being so stubborn against Calvinism, a year ago there came a group of young Christians to our church, and some had a mission of "enlightening" us with respect to this not-your-choice theology and I was hysterical about choice. Apparently no choice to be saved, but everywhere else choice existed. Every time I hear about Calvinism I have a flashback to those moments. :)
Ya... that's about right, Pavlo. If I were "shaking my head, Yes" I would have used the term "nod."But I can agree with you, CJ that it doesn't really matter, its just interesting to think about because I want to know more about how God works and why He works the way He does.
My vote is Flash. And since there are both Superman and Flash groupies, it DOES matter.
The problem is:How do some of you deal with the Biblical problem of God killing so many people in the Bible? As long as they are alive there is HOPE you say? It's all about ministry and reaching out to people you say?
2 Kings 2:24
Elisha turned around and looked at them, and he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of them.
1 Kings 18:40
And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.
Acts 5:9-10
Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.
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What about those people's possible choice and Salvation? Why not minister to them and have the people pray for them? How did God know they would never become Christians? Did God love them as he was Killing them?
Does God love each person in Revelation 19
Revelation 19:19,21
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army...The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Is God loving them all and hoping for their salvation by every means possible? NO!
I guess some of you just throw away all the verses that deal with God's elect. How theological of you.Titus 1:1
This letter is from Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ. I have been sent to proclaim faith to those God has chosen and to teach them to know the truth that shows them how to live godly lives.
Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Matthew 24:22
Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.
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The fun comes from verses like Matthew 22:14
"For many are called, but few chosen."
The message goes out - but if you are not chosen it does not have an effect.
Here's a horrible question:Is God doing everything He can to save people? NO he's not. The Truth is somewhat hidden. Jesus spoke in parables to hide Salvation at times. Why?
Many people attempt to read the Bible and get nothing out of it. I guess you all assume God will meet people half way - the Bible doesn't say that.
Rod, I just want you to know that I'm not totally dismissing your arguments/points. I am thinking about them a lot and praying about it. This will take time for God to reveal truth to me. Until then, I will stand where I am.
Well said Kris. Please don't change your mind because of my babbling. Hopefully the Bible itself will always show us the Truth. Although sometimes God likes to see us flounder around in the gray areas. :D
I'm still debating Calvinism myself. I will do whatever the Bible guides me to do.
The funny part is that whenever I meet people who HATE Calvinism it seems I find many flaws in their basic theology. The two seem to always go together.
Even my favourite teachers like Ravi Zacharias and Chuck Swindol say Calvinism is really on to something. They don't agree with all of it, but they say John Calvin was onto something.
I already said my piece on election above; I think the whole discussion is too much Christians trying to divide the world between saved and unsaved. I think there is not enough talk of what people are elect FOR - to bring good to the world around them.But anyway, Clark began this thread to discuss TULIP. We discussed the T and now are on the U. As I read, it seems we need some definitions of what exactly election is.
Unconditional Election (U in Tulip) - Before God created the world, God chose to elect a group of people for salvation solely out of God's good purpose. This election is unconditional in that God did not pick people based on any conditions. God chose some and not others; the elect receive faith as a gift.
Conditional Election - This would be an Arminian view - Before God created the world, God foresaw who would have faith and elected those people in Christ. Thus election is conditional, based on those God forsees would believe.
Corporate Election - This understanding focuses more on the Church as elect as a whole: Christ is the elect, through Christ the Church is formed and anyone is free to join this church.
All Christians do believe in Election, it is in the Bible. The argument is what it means exactly.
A few helpful links:
http://www.theopedia.com/Election
But he DID die for his children. That is the awesome part. :D
Now that is the billion dollar question for Calvinists and non-Calvinists.The Bible mostly says the ELECT are God's children. Others are children of Satan. It's never up to us to decide.
Although there are some verses that say once people walk away from God there is no coming back.
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
Very sad.
Everyone has a choice whether to do evil or good. Everyone has a choice whether to harden their heart or not.
I think Rod's post 179 does go against TULIP. If you buy into TULIP/Calvinism it is like a roll of dominoes:T - All humans are totally depraved = humans are unable to choose to have faith; our will is fallen so given our choice we always choose sin (technically, Calvinists believe in freedom, you are free to choose what you want, you just want sin).
U - God elects some people unconditionally (there can be no condition as no one can choose faith). These people are given the gift of faith; everyone else gets justice.
L - Limited Atonement - Jesus' died for the elect only (why would Jesus die for non-elect?). Jesus' sacrificial death perfectly atones for the elect.
I - Irresistible Grace - if you are elect you will receive grace, you cannot resist.
P - Perseverance - The elect will persevere - if someone falls away, they were not elect...or at least, if they are elect they will come back.
If you claim to be a Calvinist, I am not sure how you can say people have a choice. If God hardens your heart, or if God does not give you the grace to choose good, you cannot choose it on your own.
(I'm not a Calvinist)
You assume too much C.J.. :DParents have a choice whether to feed their kids or eat them. Jezebel had daily choices like this.
The choice to place all of your trust in Jesus is way beyond the choices of humanity. I was discussing the issues around Jezebel. Salvation was not an option for her - but to do LESS evil was.
Less and less evil does not equal salvation. It is a kindness to humanity though. :D
I'm very aware of Calvinism:
T: Yes
U: Yes
L: Yes (mostly)
I: Yes
P: Yes
But it is not that simple. I don't really call myself a Calvinist - i'm just a guy who wants to clearly understand the Bible. I think there may be an element that Calvin missed. But i'm still working on it. Chuck Swindol says he's a 4.5 Calvinist. That's about where I am too. Still trying to fully understand the (L).
.Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
Exodus 7:22-23 and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said. 23Instead, he turned and went into his palace, and did not take even this to heart.
Why did God not do everything he could for the Salvation of the Pharoah? Why did Moses not tell him about Jesus/Heaven/Satan/forgiveness? It just wasn't part of God's Plan (Calvinism).
Are you giving up so soon C.J.? :DJohn 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
Hebrews 12:2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith...
There is a whole lot of meaning in this verse. Most people would rather THEY be the author and perfector of their faith - God can help - but it's really about their amazing efforts.
Those people are generally charismatics with very limited theology.
God didn't leave it that way: We endlessly make it that way. God did a great job! :D ...I don't have any confusion. It all makes perfect sense.C.J.quote:
"Bible clearly says we must worship in spirit and TRUTH..."
You wouldn't want to worship a monkey deity or a demon in truth now would you? The thief on the cross had it clear and simple. You don't need ALL the information - just truthful information.
You really don't need to think about Calvinism at all. But if will affect how you understand God and the Bible. You can see how this warped John Wesley and many others - You will assume God is desperate and needy if Calvinism isn't thought about.
It's all about love and justice. You can't have one without the other. Yet many people try to!
You have a partially valid point C.J..But it gets even worse - Technically God SHOULD have sent us all to Hell. How dare he save some of us. :D
Justice is a nasty necessary thing. However; mercy and grace are incredible bits of Love.
God has made many wonderful deals with humanity - we keep breaking them. And somehow this is God's fault? God doesn't owe us anything.
But then, God created us. If He created all to damn most and save some without anyone's involvement. Can't make sense to me.
Well. Think about people. People have children because they want a family, they want to take care of someone(s). I think that applies to God too. He does take care of us, but He will let us fall down when we make bad choices. He wanted us because He wanted a family. It is no totally unheard of for a good set of parents to create, love and rear a child who grows up to be a criminal. I have worked with a children's home that takes in children with behavior problems. Sometimes, there just really is nothing the parents could have done. They did everything they could, and the kid still rebelled. Does the kid's behavior make those parents bad? I don't think so. Does it mean those parents were wrong to have that child? I still don't think so. I think there is some responsibility we have to take for ourselves. God created us because He wanted a family. He wanted to love and care for us... But not all of us care for Him or head His words. Now... Whether or not that really is our choice... I personally think He gives us a time or times to choose Him, but that's the debate here... It is very confusing. :)
The idea you gave, Kris, is not Calvinism. Parents bringing children into this world and doing their best to see them accomplished but seeing them rebel is Arminism. The Calvinistic scenario would be that a couple has a few children. Two end up with a great job and a happy life because the parents paid for their tuition (and let them sleep in their house) while the others were sent out to feed themselves and to find a place to sleep since childhood. These went to become rascals and one may have gotten to prison (all based on rumors in such stories) because the parents did not make a choice for them. They could have, but didn't. And it isn't the brighter and fairer who got the better of their parents' riches. It was random.
By now everyone knows I don't think Calvinism is valid. I will stop spamming this post, but I will keep reading it and try to come in where I think I have something of value to add.
You guys aren't going back far enough. :DGod made two children: Adam & Eve. He gave them everything and only made 1 request - they CHOSE to ignore it. God let them have what they asked for.
The child God is passionate about is Jesus. We are lucky that God does anything for us at all. God is Great! We shouldn't confuse our own self importance.
Just like Noah before the Flood: Was God going around begging people to worship him or was he sick of almost all of humanity? This is the God of the Bible. I don't think he loves all of us...many he leaves to their own desires and destruction.//
C.J., I can say personally Christianity hasn't confused me. I think there's a great jewel hidden in the form when it becomes real in your life. I hope you don't read into my complaint of Calvinism as if I am against all of Christianity.
Do you think Adam and Eve are going to heaven? Whether they go up or down, there will probably be a cranky mob ready to lynch them.
The difference between me and most people is that i'm happy to be wrong. :DBut I am not fooling around when it comes to taking the Bible seriously. Most Christians have to twist the Bible to fit their poor theological understandings of God and Jesus. They do this so they can continue their world view and not have to seriously alter their eternal perspectives.
C.J. quote:
" Religion does not need to be truly real, as long as it seems real in our personal life. That is the beauty, and the curse of it."
I however disagree - If Christianity and the Bible is not 100% real then I don't want it. No point in worshiping a lazy God with no plan.
C.J. quote:"It doesn't add up."
It adds up perfectly C.J. - that is whats so great about it. I've looked into countless other world religions and Atheism...they don't add up - they break their own rules and ASSUME individual desires are shared by a deity and other humans. The God of the Bible is very different.
C.J. quote:
" ...and denominations because all the believers are attempting to combine a delusion with the real world."
This is a very true statement C.J.. Most people who latch onto Christianity want it to fit THEIR desires and delusions. They seldom just shut up and read the Bible to hear what God actually thinks. (or worse - they only read the parts of the Bible they agree with...and ignore the rest.)
To me: reading the Bible is alot like watching Star Wars - you have to carefully judge it by its own rules. Consistency is very important...or throw it in the garbage. :D
The question is, is there enough evidence to support a Creator? Absolutely! Then, you have to look at what each religion says and ask, which one cannot be proven wrong? There is so much evidence that supports Christianity. Not what many professing believers say or do but judge the Bible on it's own merit. It simply cannot be proven untrue. In fact, things line up perfectly. That said, it does take a careful study but it is worth it. C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel started off as atheists and in their efforts to prove the Bible wrong, became Christians. I would suggest listening to Ravi Zacharias at http://www.rzim.org/let-my-people-thi..., or look him up on youtube. If you can find flaws in what he says, please share with me.
I confess, I place a lot more trust in C. S. Lewis than Lee Strobel. Strobel is a bit too anxious and doesn't check his facts.
I am pretty sure Lewis and Strobel are not Calvinists...just to get the discussion back on target.
ken, please accept CJ 's challenge by starting a new thread. this one is on TULIP
I think we discussed U for a while, so yes.But in my opinion, once you accept Total Depravity without any sort of prevenient grace (Wesleyan) the other 4 fall in line. So we can't really debate the L alone.
In other words, if you believe in Unconditional Election, can you not believe in Limited Atonement? Why would Jesus atone for the sins of the unelect?
I can see how it makes sense within a particular view of the world, who God is, etc. I don't buy it, but if you buy into Total Depravity and a few other assumptions about God then the dominoes fall.I almost see it in the same way I see any worldview. From the outside, I see a godless view of the world as devoid of meaning, lacking any sort of objective morality and all-in-all rather depressing. But I get that most godless people do not see it that way. I think it is good for us as humans to try to see the world in the shoes of others.
I don't mean to start a tangent (CJ, I am sure you want to respond to that last paragraph!). I just think so much of what rationality is only makes sense within a particular way of looking at the world. What is astonishing to me, where I sit, may make perfect sense to you.
Right. So from your perspective, as an atheist, do you admit that some versions of belief, that is, some versions of God, are better than others?Actually...maybe that should be another thread. I'll start one, maybe it'll be lame but oh well.
Luke 24:51 "Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven."
Acts 1:9-11 "Now when He has spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him our of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will com in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" (suggesting those saved will)
Philippians 3:20-21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."
2 Kings 2:11 "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”"
1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Matthew 17:1-13 this is the story of Jesus' transfiguration on the mount with Elijah and Moses.
This proves, because we know Elijah was taken in a whirlwhind up into heaven, and Moses died, but was with Elijah... That after life there is heaven.
Deuteronomy 34:5 "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD."