Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Calvinism Point by Point
They're based on what Jesus said and what Jesus did.
I'm not convinced Jesus died for everyone. Maybe - I'm still workin' on it. I tell people they can have Truth: take it or leave it. I'm curious why you were a Christian in the first place C.J.? What do you think?
God - Jesus - Holy Spirit.... They are one. Why shouldn't you look to Him/Them?!! I'm totally Convinced Jesus died for everyone. I'm also totally convinced that the Holy Spirit moves every soul toward a decision for Him at some point in their life. I also know that WE HAVE THE CHOICE to accept Him or not. You can choose not to. I just wouldn't recommend it.
Why wouldn't I accept him? I accept you and Rod and C.J., as wacky as some of your ideas are. ;)
Also, cj, the extraordinary claims are backed up with the scriptures I left. Talking about the unpardonable sin.
Take him up on his challenge, Kris. I, too, would like to see evidence of a miracle.
Oh Lee... If you think the Bible is "Wacky" you totally have a Jesus problem. He will toss you away for being neither hot nor cold. "He will spew you from His mouth."Oh my LANTA!!! WHAT IF..... What IF Jesus meant what He Said?!!! What If He is who He says He is??
Seems like there are a few people here like picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to adhere to their lives... And picking and choosing what parts of God to accept... Couldn't we all agree that that is idolatry? Creating a God to suit yourself and your sins??
I can give you an example o a miracle or 4... But first...What is CJ's definition of "Verifiable Proof?"
Don't we all pick and choose what portions we want to believe? You, for example, prefer to ignore all the references in the Bible that promised Jesus would come back immediately. Or else, like many, you rewrite them to say something else, something that could possibly be interpreted as "I'm running a little late, see you in 2,000 years."
What do you want then? Nothing seems to make you happy. And no, Lee, apart From the three day physical death, Jesus did not say He'd be "Right Back." He said He'd be back but nobody knows the day or the hour but The Father. So, ya. I believe Him.
Kris, natural phenomenon could be a miracle. How about some corroboration of God making the sun stand still, by an ancient historian?Prophecy could be a miracle. How about evidence internal to the Bible, such as a prophecy proven to have been written before the event it describes? (You must also prove that it is meant to prophesy the event you think it does).
Healing could be a miracle. Show us somebody who has been convincingly and miraculously healed.
My Stepmom begged God to tell her why He doesn't perform miracles anymore. He Used to! He Can!! Why Don't You, she pleaded with Him... She used to work on the road so she would attend church wherever she could. After fasting over this topic and sincerely pleading with God to tell her, she got her answer. At a new church she had never been to before, she felt the Spirit Moving. The preacher began speaking in tongues, so obviously she couldn't understand what on earth he was mumbling about... But in the middle of his tongues she hears it Loud And Clear: "It's not that I Can't, My people have no faith."We are supposed to follow His lead. He prompts us, we obey, we get to be part of His miracles, we reap blessings! Win win win!!! The problem is that when God asks you to do something, it will be something that makes no sense, or you don't have the resources to perform the task. He does this on purpose. That way there is no question as to who did that! If you're supposed to start a new church, but have no people and money, but you're sure it's God's plan, the money and the people will be there when you need them.
There are no coincidences.
We don't see crazy miracles anymore because people don't live out on a limb fir Him anymore.
My stepmom has also been part of a woman's miraculous cancerous healing. At an animal shelter, she felt The Holy Spirit prompting her to hold and pray for a woman dying with Stage Four Lung Cancer. It was very aggressive and doctors had given her one last chance to continue treatment before they stopped altogether, but it just kept growing. My stepmom hugged her and PRAYED. She said that place was Full of people. When they saw what she ws doing, she said the place stood still. Everyone was brought to tears because God's presence was so strong. Two weeks later the patient went for her last chance appointment and the cancer was totally gone.That's a miracle in my book and that whole shelter reaped blessings because my stepmom was obedient.
I'm curious how many people get through stages of cancer without Christianity or faith? How many non-Christians have a great recovery? Sorry, but i'm not easily convinced that this is a work of God. Not yet!
Christians used to get eaten by Lions and now we all sit around being blessed. That doesn't match my Bible.
A dispensationalist's answer to why God doesn't doesn't provide the big, obvious miracles anymore is quite simply that we have entered into a new era. God relates to us using different parameters. For the first time in the history of mankind, we are living in an era with the completed revelation of God in the form of the Bible. I personally think miracles were necessary in past ages ... God used them to communicate. They are not necessary in the same way. I certainly don't think God would perform miracles on demand as C.J. would have Him do. And I also believe C.J.'s demand for the "verifiable" evidence that was afforded Thomas is unreasonable and unwise. C.J. continually looks over the passage where Jesus reprimands Thomas for his doubt (see John 20:29).
Its not a matter of whether you are worth the evidence Thomas received C.J. Christians in this era are blessed beyond measure. We are blessed unlike any believer to ever come before us. We have the completed revelation of God in the form of the Bible and we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If that is not enough for you than I suppose you'll have to deal with the consequences. I genuinely wish you good luck.
Personally, I am done with responding to the same stubborn demands over and over. I am stepping away from that aspect of this discussion. I'll attempt to post the next Calvinism talking point later today if time permits. I am excited for the opportunity to learn more about My God through our discussions.
Clark
If I may, and again I apologize if I sound like a tyrannical moderator, but try to stay on topic of the thread.*Discuss the topic - what do miracles have to do with total depravity?
*Make an effort to stay away from your pet issues
*Try not to use every topic as a place just to evangelize the atheists in our group - there is a place for evangelism, but again, this is a group to discuss apologetics/theology so try to stay on topic
I'm kind of an anal, organized guy and the chaos drives me crazy. But merry Christmas!
David, your role as moderator is greatly appreciated. Tough job, in deed. Thank you.Clark
I've started to move on to the next point a couple of times now but David asked a question that has been resonating in my mind for the last few days: "What do miracles have to do with total depravity?"
I keep wondering if Total Depravity and miracles are connected in some way. I've heard it explained before that with every generation we get one step further removed from creation. In the particular argument I heard, this was used to demonstrate why people at the beginning of creation had longer lifespans than we have now. I'm not sure I buy this argument, however, I it's not difficult to extend it to our current debate.
Is it possible that with every generation we step away from creation that we become a little more depraved? And is it possible that such depravity has caused the big, in your face miracles of the type we read about in the Bible to cease to occur?
Consider this theory in the context of Mark 6:1-6 which seems to connect the power of miracles with belief: "6 Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him. 2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. 4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.” 5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He wondered at their unbelief."
Many people have lamented over the moral decline in west. Could this moral decline have somehow lessened the power of miracles in our lives? Are their pockets of the world where the gospel is thriving that miracles are more common? What about on the personal level - is an atheist who displays a lack of belief making it less likely for God to work miracles in her life?
I'm not sure, but this might all make a nice research paper.
Clark
Interesting?!I would be amused by miracles if (just once) I came across a faith healer charismatic who had some basic theology and Biblical understanding. All I ever see are people who replace the Bible with Harry Potter magic for their own insecurities.
I honestly think God put some of those verses in the Bible to allow these people to justify following their hearts desires into deception.
I'm all for miracles - i'm just waiting for someone to grow back a limb...still waiting... :D
By moral decline I assume you mean tolerance outside traditional Christian values. Issues such as abortion and gay lifestyles. There may be a correlation, but I don't see cause-and-affect. The correlation may be to nonbelief in the Christian God, which will erode belief in miracles, which will cause one to turn a skeptical eye to them. Unquestionably, an believer will count more miracles than an atheist, though they see the same events (a patient recovering from cancer, for example, or a lone airplane crash survivor).
It's not that He can't find anybody to believe it, it's that He doesn't have anybody close enough up Him to accept His challenges.
It totally makes sense though. We are a sinful natured creatures. It is instinctual to provide for oneself (be selfish). Selfishness is the core of sin. We like to please ourselves, make ourselves comfortable and justify our selfish actions because acknowledging our selfishness is not comfortable. Neither is putting God first. It goes against who we are which proves that we cannot willingly seek god. We need His UMPH to get us going and to keep us going. We have to make sacrifices to keep our relationship with Him and to build it stronger. We do need Him to have Him and we have Him because we need Him. Keep building that relationship and Then you get big jobs to do. I think that is when miracles happen.
*Deep Thought*...."All C.J. Has to say is 'If you say so..?'"....
I do. I just don't see what is so conflicting. Especially if what we're talking about is Calvinism here... You just want something that you can't have... so human of you. ;)
No. You don't just want proof of God. You want it on your own terms.
C.J. I get the sense that you are like a hospital patient:You want the doctors to make you well and do their thing - but they aren't allowed to cut into you or cause you any pain, no drugs or therapy or time for healing...just get to the good stuff IMMEDIATELY!
The difference between the Biblical Thomas and you is: He spent 3 years dedicated to Jesus - living with him and for him. Thomas earned the right to be shown the truth...I don't think you have. Maybe someday.
Christ reprimanded Thomas for his doubts. He also told His disciples that in His absence He was going to send something even better - the Holy Spirit. That is the answer to your question CJ. You may not like the answer, but there it is. You are not going to receive (at least in this age) the specific proof Thomas received. Yes you are wrong to demand it. And no, your 14 years of alleged discipleship does not give you the "right" to demand God to bow down to your demands. It should, however, have taught you a myriad of things that you have failed to display in this forum.
But let's shout "cognitive dissonance" a few more times, claim Christianity is insane, and then return to demanding the proof Thomas received. If you do it long enough perhaps it will suddenly make sense,
Is it just me, or are we having the same discussion in every forum? I get that I am probably coming off as rude right now, but C.J. clearly states his "mission" in his book and that mission is not to engage in honest discourse. His mission is to "destroy" the Bible and he apparently hopes to accomplish that by hammering the same weak talking points over and over until we all give up in frustration as if his stubbornness somehow proves others wrong.
I prefer honest discussion with a potential for growth and learning.
Clark
I'm with ya Clark. I'm pretty tired of his revolving door conversation/instigation. All he does is promote a book nobody wants to buy, let alone read... I'm glad you did, so some light was really shed on his intentions. Obviously, he gave up the Holy Spirit... He won't ever get that or any understanding back. All these demands for proof are for nothing. He doesn't want it, he just wants to "prove us all wrong."Like Rod said... Good Luck, Dude. You're seriously going to need it.
Moving on... (or back) miracles, I believe, are vacant from modern day because of the lack Of faith and Moxy in today's Christian. Can you imagine what a leader of an army would say to God if he were told to march around a city and play instruments??? That's how they will win the battle?!!! Ya right!! People aren't brave enough to look like fools for a time to allow for gods miracles to reveal themselves.
Repeated complaints does not equate with evidence.
Only those willing to sacrifice themselves in one way or another will get to be part of God's miracles.
C.J. quote:"Anyway, this is exactly why I did not take my book to Christians. I knew I would be ripped to pieces. Any and all evidence that even hints God is a delusion will be met with the most venomous defense by believers."
I too am still waiting for this evidence C.J.?! All you have are some tricky questions that you don't accept any and all answers to.
I did not see any of us rip you to pieces. We chatted and discussed every single point you brought up. Most of us even said we found your book fascinating and worth looking into.
What do you mean: You did not take your book to Christians? You brought it here. (since you mentioned it many many times).
You call what we did "Venomous!" ? You don't get out much do you. All we did was stand our ground. Apparently that upsets you. Did you honestly think you could come to a Christian apologists group and WIN? Now that's funny.
(it's only funny because I am aware that attacking any apologist group "Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon etc," is a waste of time.)
You're not that smart C.J.!C.J. quote:
"Remember you are the ones claiming an invisible god is real."
We are not claiming an invisible God is real and should be blindly worshiped. We are claiming an ACTIVE God is very real and should be carefully researched and Worshiped.
Sorry C.J.; all the burden is on you. God gave us an incredible Bible. You owe HIM.
I'll say it again: God is LIKE air - you don't sit around staring at it, you see how it works and affects the entire world.
What about the U in TULIP? I am interested in understanding Calvinism as to me it is nonsense presently (and isn't likely to be otherwise, but that is a minor detail). That is, all of it together doesn't satisfy my ideas about life, but the T is fine by itself.
Calvinism is what happens when you seriously try to make sense of all the verses in the Bible. Many people just choose to ignore certain verses and hope Calvinism will go away.The number one thing I see in common with people who don't like Calvinism is they scream: "Me, me, me...what about all my amazing righteousness and freedom? How dare God do as he pleases - who does he think he is GOD?"
C.J. quote:"You mean that incredible Bible that has resulted in countless revisions, editions, omissions, "lost" books, denominations, and cults?"
Obviously you have never read anything by Josh McDowell or any of the other historical Bible experts. You never bothered to read McDowell's The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict?
I think you did claim to read some Lee Strobel??? Did you not go any deeper than Biblical history 101? Find out where Lee got his information?
Do you not think that I and all those thousands of Biblical experts are not aware of your complaints C.J.? I've read books on every issue you brought up. These aren't deep dark secrets of Christianity.
@ C.J and PavloC.J. wrote: "Unconditional Election
God chooses to save random people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit."
CJ - That's a slight misunderstanding. Indeed God chooses to save people unconditionally, i.e., not by their own merits. However, he does not choose randomly. There is no such thing as "random choice". Instead God sovereignly elects those who are saved.
Calvinism says that a person has no ability to choose God on their own, but that the Holy Spirit must first regenerate a person so that they can even have saving faith; their saving faith being a gift from God.
This is a short explanation.
C.J. wrote: "Andrew,How do you know for sure that God is not choosing randomly? Please explain."
There are at least two reasons why I am sure God is not choosing randomly:
1. Choice, by definition, is not random. Choice is a preferential decision made between the presentation of two or more pre-existing options. In every choice there is a probabilistic decision that is made by the chooser where the influences on their decision come into play, even when the choices are not clear. That being the case, any choice cannot be truly random, because even a blind-folded selection requires the options to pre-exist the choice, and the process of choosing which the chooser goes through is also the result of pre-existing influences. Randomness is an illusion.
2. However, in this case, a simpler explanation is to simply refer you to Ephesians 1:3-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved..."
(Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)
The words "chose" and "predestined" as used in the Bible indicate not "random choice" as you have suggested CJ, but purposeful decision, as the text itself indicates. There are other texts which could stand alongside this one.
From our point of view, because we are not God, we can have difficulty seeing this purpose, or accepting this purpose, because we have difficulty making sense of many things. Even when God reveals his reasons behind what he does, these reasons can be difficult to accept as legitimate, but that is a function of our being created, rather than Creator. Certainly we can't call God's choices random, even if "random choice" existed as a category, which I don't believe it does.
BTW, I'm just trying to clarify what the doctrine of Unconditional Election actually is so that people can maintain a discussion in which the terms are correctly defined. I hope I am not seen as attacking, just trying to clarify.
~a
Good stuff everyone.Here's my problem with the "U" in unconditional election, and perhaps with Calvinism (and much of evangelical Christianity): it is all focused on getting to heaven and avoiding hell.
The whole discussion is always about who is "elect" and how God "elects". No one ever asks what people are elect for because most everyone agrees: clearly the elect are the lucky ones who get to go to heaven upon death. Thus, the non-elect go to hell.
It seems this sort of theology makes the gospel, Jesus' mission, God's purpose in the world...really the whole thing, into a division problem.
What if that is not what election is for?
I start with Genesis 12 where Abraham was chosen. The promise was that through Abraham all nations would be blessed. Abraham (and by extension Israel, and the Church) were not "elect" at the expense of everyone else. It was never meant to be that this group is elect (God's favorite, heavenbound) and this group is not. Abraham was elect for the benefit of the nations, to bring blessing. I think this is the same for us today.
If we speak of election it is not to separate ourselves out from the world. We are elect to serve the world. To use an example: we are not elect so we can take joy that we are saved while atheists are not, we are elect precisely so we can serve and love and bring blessing to the world around us.
And I don't think this means we simply try to convince people to think just like us. I think we are called to just serve others unconditionally as Christ's representatives. If there is any sort of grand division, I don't think that is our concern.
My biggest gripe with Calvinism is the message that a person, no matter what, cannot help themselves to heaven. That is not speaking about works, but a sort of prayer like the tax collector's in the temple by which he was forgiven. To me that tax collector wasn't created to pray that prayer but he prayed that prayer because he saw his need. To me there is choice throughout the Bible: Israel had to choose many times whom to follow. I am not making a strong argument, I am sure. I am just telling my point on which I struggle. There are verses in the Bible that seem to say that God did everything, and yet many (more, I think) speak of personal choice. So I can't believe that God would set hell as punishment for denying to live by His standards and then to project precisely everyone's end without any input from them.
Andrew wrote: ""Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved...""God knew He was creating us before the begining of time. He also knew that He needed a plan for us to get to Him in Heaven because we would fall into sin. I think when "us" is referred here, it means mankind... not any man or group of men in particular. I think that because of John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Please note that nowhere in that verse does it say "elect" but it says whosoever, which could also mean Anyone.
Calvinism makes the most sense here. Yes, God does have to stir your heart and give that desire for Him, but ultimately, you have the choice to say yes or no. he wants you to say Yes to Him. He wants you to Love Him, but you don't have to.
I used to think that way Kris; that we have the choice to say yes or no - but we don't have to. That puts it all on us, it means that we have the ability to find salvation and save ourselves. The Bible doesn't really say that.Romans 3:10...
As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Yet everyone keeps thinking we are all capable of achieving our quest for salvation. Is God sitting around begging and pleading for us to be saved? Not according to my Bible - If he really wanted mass salvation there are much easier ways he could go about it.
Here's the verse that really got me thinking seriously about Calvinism:
John 10:27-29
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
If this isn't the elect then who are they? There are many other verses that say how these sheep got to be in God's hand. It sure wasn't OUR doing.
Great stuff Andrew. Thanks for that post. You Rock!C.J. question:
"And do all these "thousands of Bible experts" agree with each other on which version, edition, revision, and translation is the true word of God?"
Mostly YES! Sure, there are other self-proclaimed experts that claim to have the secret truth - but there is a wonderful group of experts who very much agree on all your questions.
Versions, editions, revisions, and translations are all just modern adaptions of the earliest available texts the church has been using for almost 2000 years.
It has been said by numerous scholars that if we did not have a single complete Bible available to us: we could easily assemble one based on thousands of historical commentaries and writings about scripture from centuries of theologians.
The Bible has NOT changed. If it did we would have to alter all of these commentaries as well.
All of our modern Bibles are attempts at sustaining God's word accurately. Some are better than others, but they all have a purpose and are useful. Almost all modern Bibles are made by trustworthy translators who did their best and worked in groups.
_____________________________________________________
C.J. question:
"Do they all accept or reject the Apocrypha? The book of Mormon? The Jehovah's Witness translation? KJV only? NIV? "The Message"?"
They all reject the Apocrypha, book of Mormon, J.W. translation, K.J.V. ONLY thought...
The N.I.V. and Message are useful but no version of the Bible is perfect and officially authorized by God.
I enjoy the English Standard Version and the New Living Translation. But I have numerous other translations available. God didn't write his word in stone for us - it's living and translates through cultures and languages.
Even R.C. Sproul enjoys numerous Bible versions. Nobody cares what Benny Hinn likes - he probably spends more time reading MONEY than the word of God. :D...but Benny is not a translator or a theologian: he's just a personality that gullible people flock to.
I can agree with you, Rod, that in that passage from Romans the Church is being referred to. However, when the bible talks about Jesus saving, it's Him saving the World (John 1:29), the World/Sinners (1 Timothy 1:15), He bore the sins of all mankind (Acts 3:17). It is Clearly stated in Matthew and John that "Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life." that by no means says we save ourselves! We are just capable, with God's help, of allowing God to humble our hearts into submission for Him and He bestows His Grace on us for letting go of the sin that holds us slave. He has given us that free will to choose.
If Gods people have already been chosen without any thought or decision of our own, then there really was no need for the Sacrifice of Jesus. That doesn't mean God doesn't know who will and will not accept His gift of salvation. I do believe He is aware of that, but just because He already knows what we will say, doesn't eliminate our opportunity to say yes or no.
Personally, I think a lot of the concerns Calvinism tries to address would go away if we return to a more ancient belief about the new age. Where, for example, is Heaven? Where does the Bible even say anybody will be going to Heaven? If we accept--as many books of the Bible teach--that abundant life is ours NOW for the claiming, and quit worrying about some kind of future after we die, then we realize we are either saved or we are not--our choice--in this very moment. And if we happen to undergo bodily resurrection someday after death (as Revelation implies) then we can again make the choice, in each moment, as we live again on this earth, whether or not to live in the light. Whether to live 'saved' or not.
First of all, The "WHERE" is heaven is by no means important. We do know that it is "up", but really that doesn't matter. WHAT is heaven is Very Important. It's important because it is why we live our lives the way we do. We are living our lives today in such a way to benefit the Kingdom of God. We go through hardships to build character and strength. The best way to understand something is to learn through experience. God is very good at giving us experience. We use the tools given to us (emotional/intellectual strengths, money, possessions, etc.) to better the lives of others so that we create relationships here on earth and spread the good word of Christ. In doing so, you're preparing for your life in heaven. We will have places of dwelling, some will be given positions of leadership, all will rejoice, we will be greeted by our Christian loved ones who have gone on before us and most importantly, we'll be With God. We are told to not be concerned with the things in this life, but prepare for our treasures in heaven. If we can't bring anyTHING with us from this life, our treasures must be the people in our lives. You will want them with you. The Future, post life on earth, is Very Important... why would God let us know about it otherwise?
C.J. wrote: "Calvinism destroyed."LOL!! I kind of agree with CJ here. If Unconditional Election suggests that when God prompts you to follow Him, you have no choice but to accept... That doesn't really add up.
And that's what Calvinism says: no choice but God's choice.
Kris, it might help if you could show me a verse in the Bible that says anybody is going to heaven. The Bible was written in an age when most Jews who believed in an afterlife believed it would be on earth, with a physical resurrection (see Revelation).
" Before you came down with atheism, would you have considered yourself a Christian?"
Bahahahahahahahahahaha! Milk almost came out my nose. :D"
I am sincere when I ask that. Did C.J. really know Jesus or did he just study Him? It really is important. I do find it hard to believe that a man with his brain could have ever been saved, but I guess nothing is impossible... I hope that isn't' the case. I Do hope CJ has never been saved and then turned away from God. Because if that is the case... we're all talking about a moot point here. There is no chance for a CJ redemption whatsoever. To have The Holy Spirit dwelling in you, being a part of who you are... and then to say that there is no God...
Dangerous, friend...
Matt 12:31-37, Mark 3:28-30
Also... No, CJ, you won't receive a sign.
Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But He answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jesus Came, Performed miracles, Died, Rose and ascended into Heaven. That IS your, My, Rod's and everyone else's sign. Take it or leave it. I know you wont take it now, but hopefully, one day you will.