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Calvinism Point by Point
Total DepravityAs a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race has been affected by sin. Our total nature has been affected including our minds, bodies, will and has penetrated the core of our being. As such, we have been left spiritually dead and are unable to save ourselves. In fact, in our sinful state we are unable to pursue or even recognize God apart from His grace. He must pursue us for we are incapable of pursuing Him. Salvation then can be seen as a work of God’s grace and is a gift to us.
The thread of Total Depravity is supported by the following Scripture:
Isaiah 64:6 – “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”
Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?”
Psalm 58:3 – “The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.”
Ephesians 2:5 – “even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)”
Romans 3:9-18 – “What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
Matthew 19:25-26 – “When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Should be fun. Great idea Clark. Yayyyy Calvinism!
I often think of all the Christians that worry about those little old Hindu Grandma's who deserve to go to heaven but God just hasn't reached out to them properly and clearly...We all deserve Hell. Yet God is loving enough to chose a handful for his good pleasure. God has done his part perfectly - yet I have never kept up my end of the deal. Many assume they have done THEIR part - and God had better act accordingly (that is not in my Bible.)
I have the choice to not act deprived. Yet I chose it often.
But Clark, you are a genius! :)I think most Arminians/Wesleyans are okay with total depravity. The hitch is that prevenient grace enables all people to exercise faith. So I think traditional Arminians who know their stuff (someone like Roger Olson) would not dispute total depravity.
Also, I would add that the challenge in a discussion about this is more the presuppositions you bring to scripture then the scriptures themselves. If we don't discuss presuppositions and assumptions we will end up just talking past each other when we get to the actual scriptures.
Not too many out of humanity has been saved.
Think about it. CJ is right. To the Calvinist (his followers were nut jobs by the way) once God's work of election has been defined its case closed.
Noah and company was what 8 souls? Every child, woman, man destroyed. Not many saved.
During the entire time from Shem to Abe doesn't look like too much saved hanging around. Lets think, Melchizedek and company, not much info there. Job is from the area of Esau's descendants which makes him a saved gentile contemporary with Abe. Probably left over remnants from Melchizedek's camp.
Shem is still alive during Abe's day, lots happening but not most are unsaved.
I'm saved. Once my spirit was a corpse within my body, dead to God, unable to relate to God. I could relate to the world the flesh and the devil but not God or His Word. The instant I, just like the Jews looked at that serpent in the wilderness, I looked at Messiah on a cross for my propitiation, I was alive. My spirit which was a corpse took his first breath and I am saved. I've now the ability to see the deep things in the scriptures. The natural man, CJ does not and can not discern the Word of God because it is spiritually discerned and his like mine had been is dead to God and cannot receive the Word of God. The only thing CJ can hear and understand is what God has sent out to all men and that is the gospel message of salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. Can he understand this message? Yes. Can he believe in it? Did the men of Noah's day understand the message of a flood? Yes. Did they believe it?
I'm here because I love you. I did not come up with the gospel. No other religion offers a salvation in the next life apart from works period. You want me to stop believing in my free pardon? Tell me some good news man. It makes perfect sense to me. God cannot compromise himself thus facing him in my sins is not optional. It's possible but not good enough. There was a way for God to justify the sinner and do it righteously without compromising his own justice, he did it by entering our world, by taking on our humanity, dying our death, rising for our life, he's coming back for our glorification. That's pretty damn great news CJ. What are you offering that's going to make me give up my life for others? I know "some" believers who have sacrificed their lives in this world for others because the Word of God has changed the course of their lives. Man has an enemy and he is very formidable. Why do you think the Jews have suffered at the hands of so called Christians? Even Martin Luther became a red hot anti Semite. It's because man's enemy had purposely responded to Yeshua's promise to return for the nation of Israel. If there's no Israel then Jesus has no nation to return to. Laughably the Calvinists and Armenians have already destroyed Israel by claiming that the church is the new Israel. My apologies for using this section to think out loud. I hope CJ you will join me in my group entitled The Fourth Beast. I think you might see a different aspect on teaching the scripture from a Jewish frame of reference is imperative to learning what the bible is saying. I still believe without acceptance of Messiah, you're not able to comprehend Scripture but I can't know what you believe now or what you believed in the past. Perhaps I can provide an approach to the bible you haven't been exposed to yet. 10 pm here, blessings to you in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Mike
Think about it. CJ is right. To the Calvinist (his followers were nut jobs by the way) once God's work of election has been defined its case closed.
Noah and company was what 8 souls? Every child, woman, man destroyed. Not many saved.
During the entire time from Shem to Abe doesn't look like too much saved hanging around. Lets think, Melchizedek and company, not much info there. Job is from the area of Esau's descendants which makes him a saved gentile contemporary with Abe. Probably left over remnants from Melchizedek's camp.
Shem is still alive during Abe's day, lots happening but not most are unsaved.
I'm saved. Once my spirit was a corpse within my body, dead to God, unable to relate to God. I could relate to the world the flesh and the devil but not God or His Word. The instant I, just like the Jews looked at that serpent in the wilderness, I looked at Messiah on a cross for my propitiation, I was alive. My spirit which was a corpse took his first breath and I am saved. I've now the ability to see the deep things in the scriptures. The natural man, CJ does not and can not discern the Word of God because it is spiritually discerned and his like mine had been is dead to God and cannot receive the Word of God. The only thing CJ can hear and understand is what God has sent out to all men and that is the gospel message of salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. Can he understand this message? Yes. Can he believe in it? Did the men of Noah's day understand the message of a flood? Yes. Did they believe it?
I'm here because I love you. I did not come up with the gospel. No other religion offers a salvation in the next life apart from works period. You want me to stop believing in my free pardon? Tell me some good news man. It makes perfect sense to me. God cannot compromise himself thus facing him in my sins is not optional. It's possible but not good enough. There was a way for God to justify the sinner and do it righteously without compromising his own justice, he did it by entering our world, by taking on our humanity, dying our death, rising for our life, he's coming back for our glorification. That's pretty damn great news CJ. What are you offering that's going to make me give up my life for others? I know "some" believers who have sacrificed their lives in this world for others because the Word of God has changed the course of their lives. Man has an enemy and he is very formidable. Why do you think the Jews have suffered at the hands of so called Christians? Even Martin Luther became a red hot anti Semite. It's because man's enemy had purposely responded to Yeshua's promise to return for the nation of Israel. If there's no Israel then Jesus has no nation to return to. Laughably the Calvinists and Armenians have already destroyed Israel by claiming that the church is the new Israel. My apologies for using this section to think out loud. I hope CJ you will join me in my group entitled The Fourth Beast. I think you might see a different aspect on teaching the scripture from a Jewish frame of reference is imperative to learning what the bible is saying. I still believe without acceptance of Messiah, you're not able to comprehend Scripture but I can't know what you believe now or what you believed in the past. Perhaps I can provide an approach to the bible you haven't been exposed to yet. 10 pm here, blessings to you in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Mike
C.J. For now are only considering the point of Total Depravity. DO you have any feelings specifically about that doctrine?
Clark
C.J., I was merely attempting to be cordial. You have expressed some strong opinions where Calvinism is concerned and I thought you might enjoy an exploration of the topic. Obviously, you are not required to join in.
And I think Superman is the fastest.
Clark
I don't recall the Flash ever running around the entire World in a few minutes. This is a very important discussion Clark. It has a huge impact on Christianity and evangelism - but not in the way most people think. More to do with desperation than love.
I was not in favor of Calvinism until about 3 years ago. I have even been reading books against it to attempt to undo what I have learned - But I now see it in almost every book of the Bible. The Bible does not work according to John Wesley's theology (if he even had any?).
I have met Christians (they say they are Christian?) who are against all points of Calvinism. I find this comical and amusing. But always worth discussing.
How I believe it? Because the bible tells me so.
Miles seriously? It's quite disturbing that your book is being well spoken of by a person who really enjoys gay erotica. Are you that desperate for attention? Or has someone hijacked your Goodreads account?
C.J. quote:"You would think our beloved Creator would reappear once in a while to make sure we are believing the right doctrines : )"
The right doctrines are right infront of us. All we have to do is read them. If someone reads the Bible and comes to a dangerous wrong conclusion - that is most likely because their heart told them so.
(that's my theory!)
The countless denominations, sects and cults are easy to see through: some are just for variety and others are for people who seriously want to distort God's words for their own lusts and passions.
Have you even looked for God C.J.? Where and how?
I apologize to all. This post will be totally off topic to Calvinism. I'll get back on track there soon enough. C.J. wrote: "You would think our beloved Creator would reappear once in a while to make sure we are believing the right doctrines : )"
Once again, my friend, you are making an assumption and then acting on it as if it were universally true. You have made the assumption that a loving and all-powerful God would never allow His creation to suffer. You have made the assumption that a reasonable God would appear to His creation and leave irrefutable evidence of His existence. And now, you make the assumption that a prudent God would step into history every so often to correct doctrine.
You're a smart guy C.J. And I'll be honest, I enjoy your comments more than some of the comments written by people who claim to be on my side theologically! However, for all your claims to know the Bible, your inability to see past your assumptions is astounding!
First, the Bible simply does not teach that bad stuff doesn't happen to believers. In fact, it teaches that there is the potential for more bad stuff happening to believers than non-believers. It even teaches that there may be a purpose for some of the bad stuff. Heck, Christ went through some pretty bad stuff of his own when they nailed Him to a cross. So if I truly want to be more like Him, I should assume a little bit of bad stuff here and there should help me empathize with Him. It does, however, give a person direction and wisdom to help survive bad stuff. So your assumption is simply wrong. And unfortunately, you've rejected God based on your assumption rather than the revelation of the Bible.
Second, you assume a reasonable God would appear every so often to leave no doubt in our minds as to His existence. Again, the Bible teaches something different. It teaches that those of us who live without such evidence are actually more blessed than those who did. It suggests that being indwelled by the invisible Holy Spirit is even more special than watching Christ perform miracles. Once again, you've rejected God based on your assumptions rather than what the Bible actually teaches.
And finally, I love doctrine probably more than most. In fact, I would even confess to you that my love of doctrine (and my need to be right) has been sinful in the past. However, your assumption that God should show up every so often and correct faulty doctrine misses the point of the Bible. As important as doctrine is to Christianity, it isn't the most important thing. I would personally that relationship is at the core of Christianity. God has called Christians to mend their relationships with Himself and other human beings in a special kind of way. He even established the global Church as a place where these healing relationships can and should be lived out. And as a side note, the Church also serves as His witness to the world. We should provide an alternative to worldly living and diligently protect doctrine in the process (although we sometimes do a terrible job of it).
The Christians I read about in the New Testament lived in a broken, messed up world. They made mistakes. Bad stuff happened to them. Basically, their lives were kind of like mine. I make mistakes. I do stupid things. I believe the wrong stuff sometimes and represent Christ poorly from time to time. But the God of the Bible tells me that there is purpose, love, relationship, and a direction in the midst of it all. Meanwhile, the god of your assumptions, which is in no way resembles the God of the Bible, merely keeps reminding you that you've been screwed by life some way. It nags at you and tells you to keep whining about it. It tells you that all the crazy people that still believe in God are simply delusional. It leaves you in the midst of your pain and suffering and offers you no direction out of it.
I got to be honest dude. I wouldn't worship the god of C.J.'s assumptions even if it did exist. I'll take the God of the Bible because, for all of your complaints, the God of the Bible jives with reality more than your fairytale one.
If you're going to reject God, reject God. That's between you and Him. But reject Him. Not the god of your assumptions who has so obviously let you down in your life.
Clark
CJ quote:"You honestly PREFER a god that hides behind a cloak of invisibility..."
Who says he's hiding? I see God's truth everywhere: Good and Evil. love and Chaos. Spiritual Blindness.
I kind of agree with many of your questions C.J.: But not your conclusions.
The only way to really find truth is - to not care or have any biases going in. Although some people stop their research altogether at the not caring stage.
Most people's world views depend on and demand an atheistic outcome. But as we know most of the world is somewhat religious because they want certain things from religion but not the whole Pie. That's understandable. Show me an atheist who actually lives 100% like an atheist and i'll be impressed (and horrified). Most atheists borrow everything they can from religion but then attempt to throw out the core. That's dishonest.
Every statement you ever seem to make CJ is God on YOUR terms. That's normal, can't condemn you for that. But to truly find God and Truth you have to go beyond that. I dare you to research God on HIS terms.
I often question whether we Christians are delusional: it's a fair question - i've met some really dumb, gullible Christian folks that easily lead me to think this is all make believe.
But then there are other Christians that have a logic and reason and Love that I have not seen anywhere else in this world.
Matthew 25:40
And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
It's just that I don't give you credit for reading the Bible carefully. Read it for what God has to say to us. From the first verse to the last.
Most people read the Bible looking for what THEY want to get out of it.
If your heart is right: God will show himself to you. But maybe not in the way you would prefer.
If your heart isn't right - then almost everything you do is a waste of time. But God can use everything for his glory. So it's all GOOD. :D
There is your first problem. Arrogance.I cannot claim to know scripture as well or the same as anyone. Most people favor different areas of theology or literary Christianity. Some people read the Bible to understand Love, or faith, or history, or morality...
But if your core theology is wrong then every other area will end up a mess.
You have proven that you are aware of portions of the Bible's content. That's wonderful. But I don't think you understand that everything in the Bible is for God's glory - even the nasty bits. Even our salvation.
Many people who study the Bible for 14 years walk away thinking they are Hot stuff and God owes them. The more I study the Bible the more thankful I am that God has love, mercy and grace for me at all.
"14 years of careful bible study is enough"
"Therefore it must be"
"Therefore it must be"
Yea right. You and Torquemada got that devotion that Rod's missing. It shows
Then it is arrogance on God's part. I have not earned this hand-picked state. I sure don't deserve it. I'm surprised God puts up with me at all. But I keep trying and I want my heart to be right before God.Calvinism is not about US. It's about what God is up to. We have no right to Toot our own horn about it.
Anyone who truly accepts Calvinism should not be proud about it. They should also know that there is a chance anyone they talk to is about to be elect as well: Even YOU! :D
You are trying to bypass the entire experiment (project) C.J.. But God made the ice, rope, brothers, father...he is prepared for this. If God really wanted everyone saved - he would of just made us all saved and in Heaven from the beginning. God is making a point with this cosmic game - and winners and losers is part of it. The Bible is pretty clear about that.
If you hate God: then you hate God
If you love God: then you love God.
Your thoughts and feelings are part of the project.
Everything is for God's pleasure and glory. If someone doesn't like that - then I question whether they are a Christian.
I understand election s going to be hotly debated, but does anyone have any more comments concerning Total Depravity before we move on? Arguments for or against? Clark
Life is a very serious game CJ. Winners and losers.There is not really a smug satisfaction of being elected. Someone could be arrogant and self-righteously WRONG. You must keep checking that your heart and mind match the Bible.
The great thing about Calvinism is it makes God look good and us look bad. Most of the world insists its the other way around.
It's hard to defend our depravity Clark. We all see it everyday if we are observant. I have yet to meet someone who can go a day of their life without sinning. :D
Rod wrote: "It's hard to defend our depravity Clark. We all see it everyday if we are observant. I have yet to meet someone who can go a day of their life without sinning."I agree wholeheartedly Rod. I believe it was Spurgeon who wrote that he had no trouble accepting the doctrine of Total Depravity because he knew his own sin far too well. There are three fronts by which I see the truth of Total Depravity. First, it seems to be supported by much Scripture. Secondly, it is reflected in my heart when I conduct honest self-examination. And finally, it is reflected in the world I live in. All I must do is step out the front door of my house or turn on the news for a few minutes and I am eventually reminded of Total Depravity.
So at the very least the Bible, and Calvinism seems right on the money when it addresses Total Depravity.
I think David's Post (message 7) was well-written. He asserted that even an Arminian should accept Total Depravity and pointed out "The hitch is that prevenient grace enables all people to exercise faith."
What I see here is that there is some room for agreement between Christians. We are all sinful, right?
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.
I'll move on to the next point in the next day or so. This is finals week and I have four papers due, so please accept my apologies if I lag behind a little.
Clark
For the record, and I am not sure how this fits into total depravity exactly, but there is also a lot of good in the world. I agree with Clark in saying that all you need do is step out your door to be reminded of human evil (well, he said total depravity). But the flip side is, all I need to do is go to a friend's wedding on Saturday or my daughter's room when she wakes up with a huge smile and I see beauty.I believe the world is broken, but I also believe it is a good and beautiful place. I am not sure if that means I believe in total depravity or not.
David wrote: "I believe the world is broken, but I also believe it is a good and beautiful place. I am not sure if that means I believe in total depravity or not. "I think it does David. My understanding of Total Depravity isn't that no good is present in the world, but rather that sin affects our total existence.
I think you and I are in total agreement here.
Clark
The typical answer to your question CJ is called "common grace." Look it up.
CJ, good question (post 41). I don't want to hijack this thread too much.To try to sum up where I stand. I think the Bible shows us a world created good (not perfect, big difference, but that may be a discussion for another day). At any rate, it was good but through the choices of humans it became a messed up place. How exactly this all worked in the beginning, I am not sure. I almost think it is irrelevant (I lean toward theistic evolution). I think the big-picture truth is that God created a good world that has become broken.
And I think that truth is confirmed through our own experiential evidence - we can all see both good and evil in the world. The world is not as bad as it could be, nor is it as good as it could be.
As for common grace, I believe all people are created in God's image. The good in us is a reflection of the creator. So as we pursue the good (virtue, whatever you want to call it) we are pursuing God. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, by the way. But I would even suggest that as any person - atheist, Christian, Muslim - seeks love and justice and truth that person is seeking God. Not sure if that is really "common grace" as a more Calvinist person might define it. But I'm not a Calvinist :)
CJ - I don't want to hijack this thread into a conversation on that. :)It is a good question. With respect, you are not the first to ask such questions. I mean, I am not going to read your question in shock and say, "wow, I did not realize that!"
Simple answer - there was death before the "fall". The fall led to spiritual death, broken relationship with God. The world was good, not perfect, prior to the sin (that is if there was a literal first couple who literally committed a first sin, which is up for debate).
If you care to learn about theistic evolution read Francis Collins, John Polkinghorne, Peter Enns, John Haught, Karl Giberson and many others. Some are scientists and some are Bible scholars.
C.J. quote:"And God chooses who wins and loses? A very twisted game .
According to the Bible: Yes. Although many theologians would disagree as well. How dare God have that much control they say. Well: he is GOD!
Technically we all lose. But God is merciful and loving and grabs a few for HIS purposes. Good luck convincing Him that He should do things C.J.'s way.
Do you understand C.J. that we are not equal to God? Yet many people assume we have rights. Why?
You can't be a loving Father without protecting your family and children. To criminals an honest/loving Judge is always a Tyrant.
C.J. wrote: "To a sane person the god of Calvinism is always a monster."C.J.
You have been treated pretty well here I think. People have attempted to treat your questions genuinely and have provided answers to the best of their ability. I am actually still planning on blogging through your book one chapter at a time. I think your questions are important ones. I dare say Christians should prepare themselves for a modicum of suffering in life so they dare not fall into the "rabbit hole" you are currently trapped in. However, your rhetoric is getting a little stale. Saying the same stuff over and over does not add any substance to your arguments. Your inability to accept any of the answers you've been provided does not make them poor arguments. Calling us delusional and implying some of us are insane does not mean it's true. For that matter, accusing God of being a monster over and over does not make it so.
Personally, your rhetoric has only served to prove to me people are better off with God than without.
Clark
C.J. It seems as though you conveniently forget what it was that God first gave his human creation... FREE WILL.God is no Tyrant. He is Just. You choose not to love him. You choose to live a life deceived by Satan. You choose to live an earthly life. You choose an eternity without Him. It really is Up to You.
The only reason Christians are rewarded with Heaven is because they accept the ransom Christ paid for them. They are covered in Christ's Blood. Christ becomes a part of them. When the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you, you are part of Him too. So if you are part of God, you are with God.
People miss out because of their own shortcomings. Arrogance, mainly. You think you're smarter than God. You think your idea of God is better than the one that exists. I think Clark and Rod are right. You look for text in the Bible and contort it to fit your own ideas. God says: "I am who I am." He is The Great I Am. He is who HE says He is. Not who C.J. says He is. For some reason, that's a problem for you.
Kris wrote: "God says: "I am who I am." He is The Great I Am. He is who HE says He is. Not who C.J. says He is. For some reason, that's a problem for you. "Well said Kris.
Clark
C.J. wrote: "Clark, I did not realize you were sympathetic to Calvinism."C.J.
I have stated several times on this forum that I consider myself a Calvinist, however, not a true five-point Calvinist. I see some truth in Calvinist and Armenian thought ... a dual track that is represented within Scripture that needs to be explored and treated with a little generosity by recognizing both sides are struggling to understand the same Amazing God. Nothing is accomplished once we start using the loaded words that so frequently visit your posts.
It is for this reason I started this thread. Perhaps you will understand my perspective a little better once we've moved on to some of the other points of Calvinism.
Clark
C.J. wrote: "Are you not always also using loaded words such as "Amazing God"? That assumes that A)God is real B)He is amazing. ..."Dude... This is a Christian group that likes to talk about Christian things. Ya... We all, apart from you, agree that God exists. And if He exists, He is Awesome.
I do have to admit being prodded by a non believer fascinates me. The way your brain works is so foreign to me... not that i'm never around atheists (quite the contrary) I just really have a hard time understanding the conclusions you come to... they really make no sense to me.
(totally avoiding the book) Can you answer me this? Before you came down with atheism, would you have considered yourself a Christian? Seriously, sold out for Christ, You knew him personally, Had the Holy Spirit with you, were prompted by Him, Prayed constantly, received answers? And then something happened. Something so terrible that made you give that all up? Or was it that you studied the bible for 14 years? This is very important. Please answer honestly.
Kris wrote: "Ya... We all, apart from you, agree that God exists. And if He exists, He is Awesome."Well, we don't ALL agree. I realize you can experience and feel God. I don't quite see evidence that God is a "He"...or even "a" anything.
I do agree "he" is awesome, which implies that "he" does exist, because awesome exists. ;)
Kris, from my perspective, I gradually whittled away at things I used to believe, until it became clear that I really knew nothing for sure. What's left is a great appreciation for Jesus-the-man, a sense of awe for what Christianity (and other religions too, of course) can do for believers, and an appreciation for those people who are motivated to become more Christlike.
Well then, you're not a Christian. You are a humanitarian.
Kids, do we even know what it means to be a Christian? Christians FOLLOW Christ. They're not just fans of who this "jesus fellow" could have been. We are people who model ourselves after Jesus because WE LOVE HIM. "IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU'LL OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS." I try my hardest to be like Him because He gave up So much for me. I have nothing to give Him, but my Life. It's His. He leads me. He leads me down hard roads, he leads me down comfortable roads. But when you commit to Christ, you have to be willing to lose everything. "TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME." This doesn't exactly scream: "All your dreams will come true and you will live the American Dream FABULOUSLY for following me." You come to Christ, you come to work.
But what's so exciting is that you're working for The Kingdom now. You're investing in Heaven. Dollars and cents don't matter so much anymore. That's AWESOME.
Here's what's up, C.J. I don't like open doors to evil. If I were an alcoholic, I'd stay out of bars. I used to be lost, but now I am found. I'm not hanging out with evil if I can avoid it. That's asking for trouble. Afraid? No, dear. Just not stupid.
C.J. wrote: "Then read the book. What are you afraid of? If God exists, you have nothing to fear. "Sounds like a challenge issued on an elementary school yard. I don't think Kris really needs to read your book to understand where you're coming from. And while I did read it, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to my Bible study class. The questions you ask are important but not necessarily original. It's not as if you have stumbled on to the one line of reasoning that disproves God C.J. The problem of suffering has long been debated, questioned, and thought upon.
I've stared into the face of your complaints C.J. I've read your book and remain neither shaken nor stirred. I've survived divorce, the death of loved ones, painful relationships, and a host of other tragedies just as you have yet my faith is stronger today than it has ever been my life.
Perhaps the question you should be asking is what makes the faith you claimed to have once had different from the faith countless others have who didn't give up on God? Why did your faith fail in the face of suffering when others thrive? Why is there is a woman in my Bible study class who lost her vibrant, healthy, young husband to death for no apparent reason yet hasn't missed a single church service? Why is it she can stand up and praise God despite her pain and suffering? What makes her different from you?
Is it really because the rest of us are delusional, insane, or just plain stupid? To me, that is simply an arrogant assertion. I don't have all the answers, but if I were in your shoes I'd sure be asking the questions.
Clark
Kris wrote: "Well then, you're not a Christian. You are a humanitarian."
:) I've been told that before. I wonder if Jesus would toss me aside, too.
But in all seriousness, I share your definition of a Christian as one who "follows Jesus." For me, this has little to do with the Christ of religions which sprang up in his name. You might say I'm a pure, undoctrinated Christian, lol.
"You're working for The Kingdom now." Yes, that's right. "You're investing in Heaven." Not really much interest there, thank you.
C.J. wrote: "Clark wrote: "C.J. wrote: "Then read the book. What are you afraid of? If God exists, you have nothing to fear. "Sounds like a challenge issued on an elementary school yard. I don't think Kris re..."
C.J.
Once again you ignore the main thrust of my point to obstinately shout the same complaint, "WHERE IS YOUR VERIFIABLE PROOF?!?!?!?!" Here's my proof. My wife was born having never met her father. Her mother was psychotic and abused her emotionally, physically, and sexually. She was dragged from home to home as her mother went through no less than six marriages. She will tell you to this day that she would have never survived if it hadn't been for the company of Jesus Christ. She credits Him with survival and praises His name for remaining faithful to her. She has felt His presence in her life.
She doesn't stubbornly shout to the heavens for God to meet her petty demands and bow down to her wishes. She praises Him despite her suffering and pain.
I humbly suggest the problem isn't with her, me, the Bible, Christianity, or even God. It certainly isn't with the millions of Christians who seem to benefit from a relationship with Christ. Perhaps they have something you have never had, know something you don't know, or have experienced something you have never experienced. Perhaps the problem is with you. Perhaps it is your inadequate knowledge of the Bible. Perhaps it's your pride. Perhaps it's your lack of faith. Perhaps instead of putting God to the test you should open your Bible and conduct some serious self examination.
Is it possible that despite your repeated assertions that you "know" the Bible and were a devoted Christian for 14 years that you don't really understand it like you should and you never really knew Him like you should? Is it possible that you missed the whole part of Scripture that suggests we are supposed to be like Christ and that if we truly want to be like Him we should welcome suffering because He suffered when they nailed Him to a cross?
It is amazing to me that people can pour their hearts out for you and bend over backwards only to have you repeat a demand for "verifiable" proof. I truly doubt in your current state you'd be satisfied if Christ tapped you on the shoulder made you a grilled cheese sandwich out of dirt.
I don't think you want proof of Christ. I think you want proof of the make believe God of your imagination.
Of course, I'm sure you'll read this and respond with another demand for "verifiable proof."
I'll post the next point of Calvinism tomorrow folks. I'm going to go verify the existence of Christ by looking into the beautiful eyes of my wife.
Clark
:) Every now and then, Clark hits the nail on the head.
LOL, this is a fun total depravity discussion. :)
Clark... Totally!CJ... Again... You won't find what you're looking for until what you're looking for is SALVATION. You want to meet Jesus face to face? Accept Him for who He is. It Is The ONLY WAY.
Funniest quote ever -Kris quote:
" Before you came down with atheism, would you have considered yourself a Christian?"
Bahahahahahahahahahaha! Milk almost came out my nose. :D
For many many years I thought Calvinism and Predestination were the stupidest religious beliefs ever. Then I seriously started reading my Bible and was blown away by how wrong I was. (also thanks to John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, and Chuck Swindoll for their teachings on this topic).I now see Calvinism on almost every page of the Bible. I don't know how I missed it before. (R.C. Sproul says that he fought it for many years as well.) Once it grabs you - the Bible seems kind of silly without it.
Because it's God's problem and not mine. I don't worry about it.I do pray for and minister to as many people as possible - but the results are up to God.
I meet people everyday who despise and ignore God. I am not shocked when people are preparing themselves for Hell. The fact that God saved any of us is incredible.
I would love to have all of my relatives make it to heaven: I do not blame God for their rebellion. That is their true self.
I just assume that God is up to something way beyond us and our limited comprehension of his Glory. I'll trust his decisions. I'm just so thankful his Word has grabbed my heart.
So I thought it was time to really look at Calvinism point by point. Lee has referred to our little group as a theology "think tank" and I think we should use that to our advantage. Our goal in this forum isn't to prove any one view right or wrong, but rather to engage the Scriptures from a variety of perspectives and get to the heart of what it teaches concerning Calvinism. Our goal is to learn a little about God using Calvinism as a starting point. A secondary goal would be to find common ground, if any exists, between Calvinism and Arminianism. My hope is that everyone will participate, including C.J.
There are some ground rules. I will present each point of Calvinism and then allow each person time to respond before moving on to the next point. People, however, should strive to respond in a deeper fashion than "I don't agree with that" or "The God of the Bible isn't like that" or "Clark is such a genius." If you make a Biblical claim for or against a particular point, back it up with Scripture. It is also valid to suggest how a particular point jives with reality or to explore your gut instinct. But it should be recognized that some arguments are better than others.
I'll try to post on the first point, "Total Depravity," today after church.
Thanks,
Clark