Ancient Historical Fiction discussion
Lack of solid information and its effect on writing HF
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I think it's important to do as much as possible to ground one's historical fiction writing in the historical or archeological records but, like any period, where the records end is the point at which the fiction begins.Ancient History in particular is certainly open to a lot more interpretation because of the dearth of records, but I think there must be a genuine effort made by the author to be authentic. Otherwise it just becomes pure fantasy. I also value the inclusion of author's notes, even brief ones, that point to some of the research.
I agree with David, that's pretty much my feelings on the matter. I know I found several holes when I was writing by Roman novel "By Blood or By Bond" I'm still doing last minute research for it while I edit. It was particularly hard to find a lot of solid evidence on the Celts, or even the gladiators. It always seems that I find a lot of fascinating information, but never what I really need. Thus, I go and make things up.
Things I worry over are the 'nature of the beast' of the people that populate my early times stories. How different were people by nature then versus how we are now. Early Britain is an example. Romans that commented and monks that preached complained that the Britons were a filthy people. Dirty ignorant savages. Yet it was the very monks that refused to bathe or pick the fleas from there beards saying their flock should keep their eys on heaven and not on earthly vanities.By every archaeological study, found are combs, tweezers, sometimes mirrors, even fashionable clothes. They even put art on their cave walls. Some earliest divorce laws founded on tradition gave grounds for divorce if a spouse 'smelled sour'.
And old friend of mine gave me a reboot when I was decrying such mystery. I paraphrase: Do you think that Pharaoh's lowliest slave didn't snatch up her dirty kid, lick her thumb, and smear the mud from his face. Listen, you can bet that some cave mother came in the cave, looked at her worthless kids, and shouted for them to stop spending all day staring at the fire and to go the heck outside to play.
Well, I don't know if that is all true but in the darkness of ancient history I hope that humanizing my characters I don't make them too modern with modern hopes and loves and motives
I think generally, people have always been the same. I have always viewed the Celtic race as a proud and sophisticated people and that is how I portray them in my book. No, they didn't have all the grandness of Rome, but they were regal in their own way. And yes, they did bathe regularly! I also read somewhere that warriors were not allowed to get fat, if they grew a paunch over their belts they would be punished ;)
Yes, both true.Many sources speculate that they bathed more than did the Romans and used soap (Some say they discovered soap independently and very early). And, the punishments for getting too fat to fight in the war band were severe.
I'd be in trouble in the roundhouse it seems :(
Back to the opening question. We actually have many eras of record keeping - oral, hand written, printed, photographic - and the earlier the era, the more flexibility we have, which I take as good.
Hm... there does not seem to be much concern for historical accuray with a lot of authors. In Wilbur Smith's Egyptian series there are Egyptian women named Cleopatra (a Hellenistic name) and the pharaoh fights the Hykson on camels (which were not introduced to Egypt for a thousand years).As far as prehistorical fiction goes, there is a lot of anthropological research on stone age people (say, Papuans or Amazonians). My guess is that 50 years ago they were probably a lot like what our stone age ancestors were 7,000 years ago
Tom wrote: "Hm... there does not seem to be much concern for historical accuray with a lot of authors. In Wilbur Smith's Egyptian series there are Egyptian women named Cleopatra (a Hellenistic name) and the ph..."Hi Tom,
I agree with what you said. If writing historical fiction, then the author should have an obligation to his/her readers to include both historical background as well as detail in the story to give it a feeling of authenticity and accuracy. However, some historical fiction writers are either lazy or too ignorant to do this.
I am a writer of historical fiction set mainly in the pyramid age of the Ancient Egyptians, having written several historical fiction books set in this time frame. There are many aspects to the period (more than 5,000 years ago), which remain unknown or in the very least sketchy. How could the massive mountains of stone - the pyramids been built? What was the daily life of a pharaoh? How was Egyptian society organised so that the pyramids could be constructed? It is here where I put on my amateur archaeologist/detective hat and then work towards possible and plausible solutions or answers to these gaps of knowledge in my stories. This is part of the fun of being a historical fiction writer and I enjoy doing it immensely. Of course, as works of historical fiction, sometimes a certain amount of literary licence is also needed to give greater depth to the story and its characters, while still remaining faithful to the time in which the story is set.
Hello PaulAs a reader and translator, I am at the receiving end of this and often wonder: in the author's description, where does the history end and the fiction begin? It is a great exercise, and I for one, do look things up. Makowiecki's books (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...) are brilliant in this. They were written in 1946 and, yet, despite all the years that have passed, I have been able to catch only one mistake-- the ruling dates of Polycrates, the tyrant of Samos. (Though, to be fair, the mistake is Herodotus's).
If you are into Egypt, you may be familiar with https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1... -- there are mistakes, such as Hellenistic names of months are used for events ca 1000 BC; and liberties -- the king Ramses XIII has in fact never existed -- but the book has been well researched and feels really authentic.
Then there are books that are counterfactual: a book by one of my favorite authors (and one I hope to translate one day) https://www.goodreads.com/author/show... assumes that Emperor Julian did not die in 363 but lived on for 10 more years. Obviously, there is a lot of fantasy in this assumption, yet the book is extremely accurate in the depiction of the time period: from the heroes' diet and toilet habits to the way a typical shop looked in Alexandria in 363 A.D., the way letters were written, handled and sent, the way a bedroom was lit, the way people cursed or took oaths, etc. etc. And more importantly: the intellectual attitudes and debates of the day. It is in fact, a book about early Christians and the author's reading in Christian authors and their pagan critics is vast.
Why is that superior to a completely sloppy and unresearched book? Because counter-factuality is always at the top of the mind of anyone interested in history (what if Hitler had not invaded Russia?); but counter-factuality is only interesting if it presents something that was actually possible. (Clearly, not a battalion of Marines, lost in time, armed with drones and M16, joining the Confederacy). I realize though that history is not always at the forefront of all reader's minds. Many just like a good yarn and the exotic setting and aren't particular about facts.
Teodor Parnicki has thought and written extensively about the art of historical fiction: what makes for good historical fiction and what the author's responsibilities are.
How do you handle all those areas of uncertainty in your work? Do you employ counterfactuality?
Tom wrote: "Hello PaulAs a reader and translator, I am at the receiving end of this and often wonder: in the author's description, where does the history end and the fiction begin? It is a great exercise, and..."
Hi Tom,
Yes. Writing historical fiction is something of a tightrope - balancing accuracy with a good story. In many ways, it is easier to do this when the time period such as the Egypt of the pyramid builders is slightly more obscure. I can then, through my own research, reach certain conclusions based on observations of the later pharaohs of Old Kingdom Egypt where there is more knowledge, as well as using a little bit of common sense to help reach possible or logical conclusions.
I was in this situation when I wrote my first book on Ancient Egypt - The Pharaoh: Book 1 of the Giza Trilogy. The pharaoh in the book is Pharaoh Khufu who built the first and largest pyramid on the Giza Plateau. Who was Khufu? How did he build his pyramid, which he called Horizon of Khufu? We know next to nothing about Khufu other than the pyramid he constructed, a recently discovered small port on the Red Sea, and a tiny ivory statue measuring 7.6 centimetres (3-inches). Even the dates of his rule are in question.
I heavily researched for several months the pharaohs who ruled shortly before him, as well as those who ruled directly after him. This gave me certain clues, including the regular military campaigns carried out by the pharaohs to the south (in Kush) to obtain gold, cattle and other plunder. Khufu too would have needed these military expeditions to help finance his own pyramid. Trade with distant lands would also have been extremely important. Through these and other small clues I was then able to try to recreate the Egypt of Khufu in c.2589 B.C.
What was Khufu like as both pharaoh and man? I have to admit here I took some literary licence. Most likely being considered a god-king, Khufu would have been detached from most of those around him. I didn't want a pharaoh sitting on a throne and nodding or shaking his head when making decisions; I didn't want a Khufu who endlessly prayed to the gods in the temples. The book I was writing ended up being 950 pages long and it had to hold the interest of the reader. Therefore, the Khufu in my book ended up being far more accessible to those around him - the higher scribes, the priests, the generals and others; he is also filled with a certain degree of wisdom and a more benevolent ruler than the real Khufu would most likely have been. When writing historical fiction, one must put some fiction into the book, to make it interesting and exciting rather than reading as an academic textbook.
How did Khufu build his pyramid? There are several plausible and not so plausible theories - most of which I was able to dismiss through research. The one I settled on was a zig-zag ramp, rising up on each layer of the pyramid and constructed on the pyramid's south side only, which was close to the quarry. The explanation for this choice is given in the book. There were other important questions to be answered, such as logistics and the feeding of the +20,000 workers also (hopefully) answered. Lastly, a series of specially prepared diagrams* were included in the book to give the reader a better understanding of pyramid construction and how it could have been organised in the time of Khufu.
As mentioned earlier, writing historical fiction is (in my opinion) a tightrope between fact and fiction, with fact acting as an important backdrop and support for the fiction. The better the backdrop, then the more plausible the fiction. I have to admit that I love writing historical fiction - helping recreate distant times and giving voice to those who lived in those times. I never use counterfactuality or alternate story lines in my books. I've got nothing against writers using it, but prefer to stay close to the facts of reality rather than playing with alternate history.
* Tom, if you or any other members are interested, I can send the diagrams in PDF. My email address is: paulmorrisonwriter@gmail.com
I love Ancient World HF. It's good to see a breath of life in this group. I've written 3 books on the Persian invasion of Scythia in 513 BC - `The Horse Lords' series.Ancient HF allows us to get into the MINDS of the Ancients. In their world Fantasy IS Reality.
Megalithic buildings like the pyramids are among the greatest puzzles on earth - Did the Ancients have superior mental abilities which we have lost?
I would love to participate in brainstorming to stimulate and reach alternative markets for Ancient HF. With some 7 MILLION BKS it has gotten more difficult to get visibility on Amazon.
Maybe do Podcasts covering hot topics such as Megalithic buildings?
Beta Reads and Reviews? Although not One-One reviews. Amazon doesn't allow that. It would have to be Triplicate Reviews.
Hi Diana!What an interesting choice! What made you think of choosing that as your topic? What's the chief idea? I don't mean "what is the action", but rather: what is the point you are trying to develop?
What I mean is this: Parnicki's idea behind his Julian Apostate novel was to explore the minds of Roman opponents of Christianity on the one hand (to do which he read a lot of antique authors) and on the other to explore a political idea: had Julian actually seized all Christian bishops on day X all across the empire and "put them beyond use" (I don't want to spoil the plot by saying how), would it have killed the new movement?
So, you see, he had these intellectual interests to explore.
How about you? Why did you choose that topic? Have you been reading a lot about Scythians and got started that way?
Paul wrote: "Tom wrote: "Hello PaulAs a reader and translator, I am at the receiving end of this and often wonder: in the author's description, where does the history end and the fiction begin? It is a great e..."
Hi Paul
Ill write you an email re the diagrams, but here, to spark a discussion, may I ask you: what was your guiding idea to write your series? Why have you chosen the Great Pyramid as your topic (I assume Khufu is there because the Great Pyramid is there, yes?)
tom
Tom wrote: "Hi Diana!What an interesting choice! What made you think of choosing that as your topic? What's the chief idea? I don't mean, what is the action, but rather: what is the point you are trying to make?"
Herodotus - The Histories - details the culture of the 7 Scythian tribes and the closely related Sarmatians. They were head hunters who drank blood.
3 of the Scythian tribes and the Sarmatians united to face the invading Persian army under Darius, king of the greatest empire on earth at that time.
Herodotus describes the strategy of the outnumbered Scytho-Sarmatians and their advanced weaponry to force the Persians back over the Danube.
The scope is huge. 500 BC was the Rise of the (Modern) Indo-Europeans.
Scythians invented the Reflex Bow - AK 47 of the ANE. They actually `invented' the Riding Horse, scale armor, the saddle and tailored clothes while the Greeks and Romans were still wearing robes. Scythians invented trousers when the Romans were going to battle in skirts. Scythian GOLD work is stunning.
Scythians were primarily pastoralists yet how were they so advanced?
Some historians have called the Scythians - `The Survivors of Atlantis'
Herodotus called Scythians - `The Most Just of Men'.
Yet they were headhunters who practiced human sacrifice. They flayed and wore the skins of their enemies as boots and capes. And even practiced cannibalism.
`A (Scythian) warrior had to drink the blood of the first man he felled in battle' - Herodotus.
What religion/gods motivated them to commit such acts? At some point the Scythians began to throw off the bloodthirsty stranglehold of their priests - How? Who were the Influencers?
Tom wrote: "Paul wrote: "Tom wrote: "Hello PaulAs a reader and translator, I am at the receiving end of this and often wonder: in the author's description, where does the history end and the fiction begin? It..."
Hi Tom,
The guiding idea in writing The Giza Trilogy was my great interest in Ancient Egypt. I have been reading about Ancient Egypt since I was six or seven years old - first inspired by the movie, The Egyptian, which was based on the book written by Mika Waltari. I later read this book several times and it always remains a favourite. As I grew older, I became interested in the Egyptian pyramids, primarily the three on the Giza Plateau. I read everything I could about them but still, there were many unanswered or partly answered questions: How were the pyramids built? What were the lives of the pharaohs who built them? When were these Giza pyramids first robbed? Even the climate on the plateau and in the Egypt of the Old Kingdom. How different was this climate from the climate of today? The questions in my mind were many and they seemed to be questions seemingly overlooked by historians and writers in both the recent times and over the centuries.
I wanted to write a historical fiction book set in Ancient Egypt but there were too many fiction books on Cleopatra, Ramesses II and Tutankhamen. The Egypt of the Pharaohs is a far broader canvas than this. I was thinking bigger and what can be bigger than a pyramid? I then began writing THE PHARAOH in 2009. When the book was finally finished, my wife, Helena, who had inspired and supported me greatly during the writing said to me after we celebrated the occasion with a glass of wine, 'There are not one but THREE pyramids on the Giza Plateau. You should write TWO more books.' And so the GIZA TRILOGY was born, each stone or is it a page rising up slowly from the plateau. I finally completed the series in 2013 - with it and the supporting books covering more than 1.3 million words!
A word of explanation: When approaching the other two books in The Giza Trilogy, I needed to take a different approach from the first one. THE PHARAOH - Book 1 of The Giza Trilogy is primarily concerned with not only the life of Pharaoh Khufu who built the pyramid, but also the planning and construction of the pyramid itself. The other two books needed to be vastly different ones rather than a repetition or mirror of the first book.
THE SPHINX - Book 2 of The Giza Trilogy delves more greatly into the Ancient Egyptian religion, as well as the importance of the sphinx within this religion. It also takes the reader back to the beginnings of pharaonic Egypt. However, the pharaoh in this book, Pharaoh Khafre and his pyramid still appear as an important backdrop to the story.
THE THREE QUEENS - Book 3 of The Giza Trilogy is about Pharaoh Menkaure, son of Khafre and grandson of Khufu - his love for his three queens. It details palace life and also the daily life of the common people. I've also tried to answer the question of why Menkaure's pyramid is the smallest one on the plateau and how he coped with standing in the shadows of greatness of his father and grandfather.
All of us must eventually die: How did the pharaohs die in the end of each of my books? I won't give away spoilers, only to say that only one of them died of old age. None died in war. I came up with novel (but plausible) ways to kill my other two pharaohs. I WAS SORRY TO SEE ALL OF THEM GO. Khufu. Khafre. Menkaure. They had all become close friends. Sometimes I had the strange sensation they were standing behind me as I was writing, somehow guiding me in what I was saying - determined at long last to have their stories told.
The GIZA TRILOGY books were finally finished... 'How were the pyramids first robbed?' my enquiring wife, Helena now asked me. 'Was the plateau still occupied with the priests and scribes after the last of the plateau pharaohs were buried there? Were these three pharaohs considered to be gods by later Ancient Egyptians?' Yes! A supplement had to be written and this additional (but smaller) book was ETERNAL EGYPT. Through a series of fictional but well researched short stories, the history of the Giza Plateau over a 2,500 year period was recorded through the eyes of other pharaohs, the priests, scribes, soldiers, common people, robbers and of course, the many conquerors, - from shortly after the last pharaoh was buried there in c.2504 B.C. through to the Roman occupation of Egypt in 30 B.C.
Will I be writing more books on the pyramids of the Giza Plateau? Tom, I don't think so. I've written everything I need to write about them, although I will still continue to write other books. I couldn't exist without writing.
Diana wrote: "At some point the Scythians began to throw off the bloodthirsty stranglehold of their priests - How? Who were the Influencers?They did? :) Do you address that in your novel? Was that your motivation?
Barry Cunliffe's book on the Scythians is quite exhaustive. More than head-hunting or blood drinking (not exactly a common place but not usual activities in history), I found the description of the dead armies --horsemen impaled on sharp sticks along with their horses and set vertically in the ground as guards around king's burial mounds, and left that way to rot and be devoured by birds, really fascinating. I wonder if this is the origin of the zombie myth. :)
What I meant to say by "little information" is that history does not really give us any insight into any Scythian's mind--the only Scythian I know who gets a speaking part is the fellow who traveled to Athens to befriend Solon, I think? So you'd kind of have to imagine the interior life of a blood-drinking head hunter? Very little to go on. plus, it had to be absolutely miserable to live in a milieu where your ruler could oblige you to scrape hundreds of tons of soil and pile them high up on his grave, then impale you and leave you dead-guarding it. i shudder to think about it and thank goodness for my 9-5 job with a lunch break. :)
btw, yes, it is very difficult to promote historical fiction--it is the most crowded category of all, even if ancient historical fiction itself isn't. my secret weapon is that the books I publish have been successful elsewhere, in many languages, for decades. that's a very powerful proof of their market strength and potential and this allows me to price them high enough to afford ams advertising. (they are priced $7.99-$9.99).
Paul wrote: "Tom wrote: "Paul wrote: "Tom wrote: "Hello PaulAs a reader and translator, I am at the receiving end of this and often wonder: in the author's description, where does the history end and the ficti..."
Hello Paul
that's a really great post, Paul, and very moving, especially the last paragraph. I have come across similar witness when reading in the writings of several of my favorite authors (like Thomas Mann). right there is probably why I am not a writer: I don't feel the compunction to write. to read, yes. to think. to jot down something sometimes. but write--no. Congratulations. :)
Tom wrote: "Paul wrote: "Tom wrote: "Paul wrote: "Tom wrote: "Hello PaulAs a reader and translator, I am at the receiving end of this and often wonder: in the author's description, where does the history end ..."
Tom,
You are also a book translator. Without book translators, we, that is, English speaking readers like myself, would never have been able to read the works of Tolstoy, Proust, Camus, Verne, Jean-Paul Sartre and many other great writers and philosophers, including the classical writings of Homer, Plato, Livy and others. The translators are important in having opened up a whole new world for us readers, no matter what language we speak or read!
Diana wrote: "I love Ancient World HF. It's good to see a breath of life in this group. I've written 3 books on the Persian invasion of Scythia in 513 BC - `The Horse Lords' series.Ancient HF allows us to get ..."
Hi Diana,
Congratulations on writing your series of books on Scythia. It's great to see a fresh approach by a historical fiction writer - too many books are written on Classical Greece, Rome and, of course, Ancient Egypt, which is my own domain for historical fiction. The Scythians were a remarkable nomadic people. I recently watched an excellent and impressive epic movie, Tomiris, filmed in Kazakhstan, once part of the Scythian Empire.
Tom wrote: "Diana wrote: "At some point the Scythians began to throw off the bloodthirsty stranglehold of their priests - How? Who were the Influencers?They did? :) Do you address that in your novel? Was tha..."
Circa 500 BC marked a tidal change in Indo-European history with the emergence of Buddha Shakyamuni (`Lion of the Sakyas' - a Scythian tribe) and Zoroaster in Persia/Afghanistan.
Herodotus writes of a Scythian tribe which refused to eat meat and used no weapons. Remarkably this tribe was highly respected by its head-hunting neighbors and became a buffer state, so its borders were respected.
So the ideals of compassion and nonviolence had emerged and were becoming influential.
`The Horse Lords' is the saga of a young man, the son of the Voivode/War Leader of Sarmatia. From childhood Sava has refused to drink blood or bring the annual tribute of trophy heads to the king. For this he is shunned and is an embarrassment to his father.
However when Darius is poised to invades Scythia, Sava is one of the envoys sent to contact all the Scythian tribes and bring them to a great convention to hammer out a coalition against the Persian invasion.
Herodotus also describes the Greeks who then heavily involved in the Black Sea region and were intermarried with the Scythians. For example Anacharsis' mother was Greek. His Scythian father was a brother to the king of Royal Scythia.
Anacharsis traveled to Greece to learn their ways. The Greeks loved him for his witty speech and named him one of the 7 Sages.
When the Greeks asked Anacharsis - `What do you think of our Olympic Games'?
Anacharsis answered - `Only the Greeks would make those who cannot compete the judges of those who can.'
I know that not everyone feels that way. I once met a writer of mysteries set in Imperial Rome, who was a meticulous researcher. When I asked her for advice on writing in the Neolithic Age, she said "make up anything you want." As far as she was concerned, if a society didn't have written records, there was no certainty to hang your story on.