The Turn of the Screw

[Denise]

Lily wrote: "(view spoiler)[But, also interesting (because what put me onto this line of questioning was a frustrating commentary I read last night, which, if I understood it all) was a suggestion that the governess, in her imbalance, both in lack of self confidence and in excessive self belief, generated many of the evil results that ensued by forcing her assumptions onto the children and the situations. (hide spoiler)]"

(view spoiler)[Yes, that is how I read it this time; I felt that the governess was reading things into the children's behavior that weren't necessarily there, based on her own ideas. She also made ambiguous suggestions to the children, such as that she knew what they were up to, that eventually began to make them respond in certain manners that may have, in turn, reinforced her own morbid imagination. (hide spoiler)]

[Denise]

Lily wrote: "A couple of dates to remember when discussing TotS -- 1) its publication date is 1898. 2) Oscar Wilde's infamous trial occurred in the spring of 1895 and he served a prison term of two years upon ..."

Are you drawing some connection between The Turn of the Screw and Oscar Wilde?

[Lily]

Denise wrote: "Are you drawing some connection between The Turn of the Screw and Oscar Wilde? ..."

Yes -- the trial and its aftermath reportedly made other writers even more circumspect about dealing overtly with sexual topics, especially ones considered illegal or disgraceful at the time. Yet, those sending youth to boarding schools apparently widely recognized liaisons and abuses to exist. So the subject could be discussed, but in a relatively coded language.

Re your Msg 51 -- we seem to be on the same page of interpretation. It would be very consistent with Henry James apparent fascination with the causes and sources of good old fashioned Evil.

[Denise]

Interesting, Lily! This story is definitely very vague about sexual topics, while managing to allude to them in a rather cryptic way.

[Amanda]

Denise wrote: "Lily wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

[spoilers removed]"

Agreed with Denise and Lily.

(view spoiler)[My interpretation is that Quint and the governess who died probably were bad influences on the children while they were alive. The children looked at them as role models and continued to copy their behavior after death. That doesn't mean they were haunted by ghosts.
James is pretty vague about why Miles was expelled from school, but it seems to be for stealing and/or using vulgar language. Quint certainly could have taught him those bad habits while he was alive and Miles continued to copy Quint even after his death. (hide spoiler)]

[Glenn]

To me, the issue of gender is related to the sexual topics and self-censorship in Turn of the Screw. I read the governess as a somewhat repressed female who is scared of the way that evil/sexuality may tarnish the children. She struck me as a well-developed, extraordinarily complex woman whose main understanding of herself comes from her interactions with other people, which is a character type that appears a lot in the literature of this period (I'm particularly reminded of Jane Eyre). I won't get into spoilers, but what does everybody else think about how her identity as a woman informs her actions toward the end of the story?

[Lily]

Glenn wrote: "She struck me as a well-developed, extraordinarily complex woman whose main understanding of herself comes from her interactions with other people..."

Please say more -- in part because to me the governess seemed somewhat an off-the-wall romantic caught up in believing her own lines of reasoning and not much realizing a need for analyzing either herself or the world around her in open and objective ways.

[Glenn]

I agree that the governess is an off-the-wall romantic, particularly susceptible to leaping to judgement based on emotion. I don't think this makes her a simple character, though. Instead, the governess' character seems shaped by her relationships to others instead of her own critical thought.

Her relationship to Miles is a good example. She hears that he's in trouble at school, but finds it impossible to believe that he's capable of doing anything wrong. She could be in denial because she's a romantic who refuses to engage with facts. Or, she could be prioritizing her emotional relationship with the boy over cold evidence.

To me, her emotion-driven response does seem a little foolish, but no less complex. Keeping in mind this story was written at the end of the 19th century, I agree that the governess seems like a bit of a male-drawn caricature of a woman: over-emotional, irrational and prone to rash decisions. What makes her complex and well-developed for me is her constant questioning of her senses. She doesn't analyze herself or the world objectively, that's true, but she is constantly reevaluating and second-guessing based on what others say and what she feels.

Up until the end of the story, this keeps the reader off-balance and unsure what she's capable of as a character. I'm unsure how much of this has to do with her being a woman, but I'm interested in what others have to say.

[Amanda]

Glenn wrote: "Her relationship to Miles is a good example. She hears that he's in trouble at school, but finds it impossible to believe that he's capable of doing anything wrong. She could be in denial because she's a romantic who refuses to engage with facts. Or, she could be prioritizing her emotional relationship with the boy over cold evidence."


I think the governess' behavior is the result of her youth and inexperience and not her gender.

No one with any experience would have taken a position in which they aren't allowed to contact their employer. She also seems to think that the children are abnormal because they misbehave, but of course most children do misbehave from time to time and get in trouble at school.

[Lily]

Amanda wrote: "...most children do misbehave from time to time and get in trouble at school...."

But I don't think most children misbehave to the point of getting dismissed from school. Usually a parent or a guardian or someone designated as such should have contact with school authorities on just exactly what was involved, I should think.

Do we know the ages of these children? I haven't gone back to check, but as I recall that was confusing to me at the time I read the story.

[Lily]

Glenn wrote: "...What makes her complex and well-developed for me is her constant questioning of her senses...."

Glenn, thanks. I think I understand better where you are coming from on the character of the governess. Incidentally, I had never thought of her as "simple". But, I had interpreted "well-developed, extraordinarily complex" as possibly meaning "mature, wise" -- or as being so well described by the author that it was clear who she was as a person. I would have wanted to better understand either of those two interpretations. But neither of those seem to be what you intended. (I had pulled a "governess" -- drawn a possibly false conclusion from the information presented.)

[Amanda]

Lily wrote: "Amanda wrote: "...most children do misbehave from time to time and get in trouble at school...."

But I don't think most children misbehave to the point of getting dismissed from school. Usually a..."

The housekeeper says at one point that Miles is around 10. Flora is younger than Miles, but I don't recall anyone stating her age.

[Lily]

Any thoughts on the significance of the name of the story? "Turn of the screw" is mentioned in the text, but that alone didn't seem to justify its becoming the title.

[Lily]

Amanda wrote: "...No one with any experience would have taken a position in which they aren't allowed to contact their employer...."

That's certainly reasonable, but do you think it is always true? (I suspect in the corporate world, many of us have been put in that position, for all practical purposes, at one time or another.)

[Linda2]

Lily wrote: "Amanda wrote: "...No one with any experience would have taken a position in which they aren't allowed to contact their employer...."

That's certainly reasonable, but do you think it is always true..."

That doesn't seem as fantastic as getting another nanny job after her last child died. I wouldn't look for logic too much in the setup of the plot. This is ghost fiction, and if James want to set up the uninterested employer as part of his plot, he can. If she were able to see her employer to explain what's going on, we might not have such a scary story.

[Amanda]

Rochelle wrote: "Lily wrote: "Amanda wrote: "...No one with any experience would have taken a position in which they aren't allowed to contact their employer...."

That's certainly reasonable, but do you think it i..."

I do agree that James is defying logic in setting up the plot machinery and following the horror/gothic fiction model of people doing unreasonable things. Governesses in the Sherlock Holmes story are always taking positions with creepy employers despite Holmes' advice.

But I do think that James makes it clear that she accepted the job because she has an infatuation with her employer, which to me is the reaction of a young and inexperienced girl. The text makes it clear that other governesses turned the job down because they found the condition of not contacting their employer unreasonable.

[Amanda]

Lily wrote: "Any thoughts on the significance of the name of the story? "Turn of the screw" is mentioned in the text, but that alone didn't seem to justify its becoming the title."

That's a good question. I have always associated the phrase with the rack that they used to torture people with in medieval times. The screw is being turned to apply more pressure and cause more pain.

I don't know if that is what James had in mind, but that's what I always think of.

[Janice (JG)]

I've read this book more than once over the past few decades, but not recently. What I remember is that the entire ambience of the story seemed steeped in a sort of perverse sensuality... if I were to compare it to another book with the same sense of forbidden & repressed sexuality I would compare it to du Maurier's Rebecca.

I think James intended to write a psychological and Freudian thriller. The fact that even the children might be construed to be evil or lascivious in the mind of the governess plays to Freudian theories of childhood sexual obsessions. James's brother William was a renowned psychologist and writer, which I'm sure influenced Henry's choice to use the subconscious as a main character.

[Janice (JG)]

Lily wrote: "May seem like a non sequitur, but has anyone read the book and seen the film The Life of Pi? I read and even discussed it with a group when the book appeared several years ago, but never "got it." (Sort of like TotS.) Steven Spielberg's production is a work of art. (I suggest the 3D version.) I think I finally "get it" (maybe), even if I don't necessarily like all of it or even agree with its basic premise.
..."

I've read the book Life of Pi and seen the movie. I believe Ang Lee directed the movie, I don't think Steven Spielberg has any association with Life of Pi.

[Amanda]

Janice George wrote: "I've read this book more than once over the past few decades, but not recently. What I remember is that the entire ambience of the story seemed steeped in a sort of perverse sensuality... if I wer..."

Yes, The Turn of the Screw is a ghost story in the same way Hamlet is a ghost story. Both Shakespeare and James are using the horror/gothic framework to explore deeper issues.

[Lily]

Janice George wrote: "I've read the book Life of Pi and seen the movie. I believe Ang Lee directed the movie...."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454876/

Janice -- THANK YOU! Me bad. Don't know why I ascribed the wrong director.

Am still fascinated by the concept that some reality is so overwhelming, mysterious, or incomprehensible that humans can only deal with it through story.

I think Turn of the Screw has some aspects of an attempt to express reality through fiction.

[Kim]

I've just read TTotS for the first time. The last time I read James was about 35 years ago. I remember liking The Portrait of a Lady and not particularly liking The Golden Bowl, which are the only two of his novels I've read.

I've spent years thinking that TTotS would just be a ghost story and I tend to avoid the supernatural in both literature and film. However, I'm fascinated by the range of possible interpretations of the work. The repressed sexuality theme came through strongly for me, and I wondered whether Miles was expelled because of behaviour that was sexually suggestive in some way. If Miles is only supposed to be ten years old, he is certainly very knowing for a child of that age. If I remember correctly, he told the governess he was expelled because of things he said to boys he liked. That could well have been something of a sexual nature, possibly learned from observing Quint and Jessel.

My impression of the governess is of someone young, naive and insecure whose tendency to hysteria pushes her over the edge into fully fledged psychosis. The reliability of her account has to be questioned, as does that of Douglas. He was in love with her when he was a young man. How much of her story has he left out?

For me, the best thing about the novella is its metafiction aspect (the story being told by someone to whom the story was told by someone else) and the wealth of possible interpretations open to the reader. The worst thing is James' love affair with the comma and the semi-colon and his dislike of full stops. I had to re-read a lot of sentences (sometimes mentally removing commas as I read) before they made sense to me.