The Turn of the Screw

[Silver]

For the disucssion of The Turn of the Screw by Henry James

Please be aware spoilers may be posted here.

[Hedi]

Silver, do we have a reading schedule or will we discuss the whole book here? I started the book the day before yesterday and had to stop myself half way because I was not sure about the structure of the discussion and did not want to spoil that for me.

[Silver]

Hedi wrote: "Silver, do we have a reading schedule or will we discuss the whole book here? I started the book the day before yesterday and had to stop myself half way because I was not sure about the structure ..."

Since this is not really an Official Group read, than I was thinking the whole book will just be discussed here, and there is no official schedule for this one.

[Hedi]

Thanks, Silver. Then I will finish the book maybe by Monday and comment on the whole.

[Deborah, Moderator]

I won't be joining this one as recently read it with the Victorian group. I may lurk out there watching the discussions

[Lisa]

I have read to chapter 11 so far and have found the book to be interesting, but a little hard to follow in some parts. Spark Note's app has a study guide for this book that I have found helpful.

[Linda2]

Lisa wrote: "I have read to chapter 11 so far and have found the book to be interesting, but a little hard to follow in some parts. Spark Note's app has a study guide for this book that I have found helpful."

I've read the book several times, and I've seen the 1961 film and Britten's opera.

If you know that the governess might (or might not) be an unreliable narrator, it helps. And there are a number of interpretations of the story.

[Lisa]

Yeah, I already was thinking that she might be unreliable, but she is very interesting I think because of just how odd she is.

[Denise]

Deborah wrote: "I won't be joining this one as recently read it with the Victorian group. I may lurk out there watching the discussions"

Same here!

[MadgeUK]

I don't like James much but I'll give it a go.

[Lily]

Denise wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I won't be joining this one as recently read it with the Victorian group. I may lurk out there watching the discussions"

Same here!"

Why is that a reason for not joining the discussion here?

I was in on the Victorian group one, too, and will watch this one to see what new insights might be here. In my attempted read many years ago, I never finished. This time, I was intrigued, although not in love with the story, but found all the insights of the various readers so very helpful. I'm not about to spoil anyone's reading of this mystery, but when the story as a whole is discussed, -- will see.

May seem like a non sequitur, but has anyone read the book and seen the film The Life of Pi? I read and even discussed it with a group when the book appeared several years ago, but never "got it." (Sort of like TotS.) Steven Spielberg's production is a work of art. (I suggest the 3D version.) I think I finally "get it" (maybe), even if I don't necessarily like all of it or even agree with its basic premise.

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "I don't like James much but I'll give it a go."

"Turn of the Screw" may well reinforce that view! (Grin. Grimace. LOL!)

[Lisa]

MadgeUK wrote: "I don't like James much but I'll give it a go."

This is the first book of his that I have read and I think I will read another book by him before I stop reading his works.

[Lily]

Lisa wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I don't like James much but I'll give it a go."

This is the first book of his that I have read and I think I will read another book by him before I stop reading his works."

Please don't necessarily stop with only one more. He is an author that has become increasingly fascinating and insightful to me over time -- and no less frustrating for some works. I encourage a good guide, like The Cambridge Companion to Henry James or whatever may be helpful for you. But, to go it alone, ...., tough sledding, in my book.

[Lisa]

Lily wrote: "I encourage a good guide..."

I have been using SparkNotes, through an iPhone app, that has been a great help, and it's free! :) I will be reading more of his works because I'm trying to get through the 1st edition of the 1001 list and there are a few others by him on the list. His style isn't exactly what I usually read, but that is the one of the reasons I am reading through the list.

[Denise]

Lily wrote: "Denise wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I won't be joining this one as recently read it with the Victorian group. I may lurk out there watching the discussions"

Same here!"

Why is that a reason for not joining the discussion here?"

I meant that I would lurk and if I have anything to add to the discussion, I will. However, I will not be reading it again at this time.

[Lily]

Lisa wrote: "Lily wrote: "I encourage a good guide..."

I have been using SparkNotes, through an iPhone app, that has been a great help, and it's free! :) I will be reading more of his works because I'm trying..."

If you have the time, please share what of his is on that list. (I have read these, all fairly recently: The Wings of the Dove (after considerable agony, well respected; now even perhaps a favorite), The Bostonians, Washington Square, The Turn of the Screw and The Aspern Papers, and the one that "sold" me on Henry James, The Portrait of a Lady. 2013 will bring choices among The Ambassadors, The Golden Bowl, What Maisie Knew, Daisy Miller, and perhaps Roderick Hudson. I also hope to add some of his brother's works to my reading oeuvre.)

[Deborah, Moderator]

Lily wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I don't like James much but I'll give it a go."

"Turn of the Screw" may well reinforce that view! (Grin. Grimace. LOL!)"

Lily it did exactly that for me. I believe I would be lurking in the discussions so I'm not completely opting out. I just really didn't enjoy the story, don't enjoy James, and really didn't get it.

[Linda2]

Lisa wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I don't like James much but I'll give it a go."

This is the first book of his that I have read and I think I will read another book by him before I stop reading his works."

Try Washington Square, which is very accessible, and nowhere near as long as his later books.

[Hedi]

What did you think of the beginning of the story? It reminded me a little of a mixture of Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights due to it having a frame story similar to Wuthering Heights where the servant tells the story to the new tenant of the house and a story of a very young governess coming to an impressive house taking care of children without their guardians being there and some obvious mystery within the house, as in Jane Eyre.
It is definitely a very gothic novelette and might have inspired the one or other modern mystery thriller.

BTW, I am not so sure how far you have read the book. I have already finished it and also watched 2 movie adaptations of it, but I do not want to spoil the whole story all at once.

[Lily]

Hedi wrote: "...due to it having a frame story..."

Yes, as someone pointed out in my last discussion, it is at least a doubly framed story, with the host providing the first frame and the young man providing the story, the second frame. So many places for interpretations, and misinterpretations, to arise. (Although still not clear to me which ones matter to the final story-telling.)

[Lisa]

Lily wrote: "If you have the time, please share what of his is on that list."

The following are on a list that I have of all 3 of the 1001 lists put together: The Turn of the Screw, The Ambassadors, The Golden Bowl, What Maise Knew, The Wings of the Dove, and The Portrait of a Lady.

[Lily]

Lisa wrote: "The following are on a list that I have of all 3 of the 1001 lists put together: The Turn of the Screw, The Ambassadors, The Golden Bowl, What Maisie Knew, The Wings of the Dove, and The Portrait of a Lady...."

An impressive set, for a single author! I have three of those to go, two of them from his difficult last years, so I'd say less than half done. But I have become intrigued enough with Henry James that I do want to read them.

You speak of three 1001 lists? Are those from different sources? Different authors? Different books/publishers?

I do things like Fadiman ( The New Lifetime Reading Plan , plus an older edition), Dirda ( Classics for Pleasure ), and David Denby ( Great Books ) but so far I have steered clear of the 1001 Books, whether for books or travel or .... (I consider myself too old to start those at this point!) There are three lists of 100 books that I do keep around, two from Modern Library, if I remember correctly, and one from Time.

[Lisa]

The more that I read the more I am enjoying this book. It was just a bit of a rough start, probably in part because I was reading several books by Dickens and next to those this book wasn't nearly as interesting.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Lily wrote: "Lisa wrote: "The following are on a list that I have of all 3 of the 1001 lists put together: The Turn of the Screw, The Ambassadors, The Golden Bowl, What Maisie Knew, The Wings of the Dove, and T..."

Lily you might be surprised by just thumbing through a copy. I bet there are a lot of books in there that you have already read.

[Denise]

Lily wrote: "Hedi wrote: "...due to it having a frame story..."

Yes, as someone pointed out in my last discussion, it is at least a doubly framed story, with the host providing the first frame and the young ma..."

Actually, this one has a triple narration. In Wuthering Heights, we have Lockwood relating Nelly's story. Here, we have the original narrator, recounting Douglas' retelling of the governess' narration.

[Hedi]

Denise wrote: "Lily wrote: "Hedi wrote: "...due to it having a frame story..."

Yes, as someone pointed out in my last discussion, it is at least a doubly framed story, with the host providing the first frame and..."

Yes, Denise, you are right. I did not go into that much detail. After having read the whole book, I was a little surprised about the ending with respect to the frame story, but I will not go into the details of that yet.

[Denise]

I had a few questions, too, Hedi, that I hoped would be answered at the end, but, as you say, we can discuss that later.

[Hedi]

Denise wrote: "I had a few questions, too, Hedi, that I hoped would be answered at the end, but, as you say, we can discuss that later."

I am also eager to discuss the whole book, but I am not sure whether to do this at this point without spoiling it for everyone else. I am more used to the threads per sections. If you are behind with your reading you just avoid reading the comments in the later threads.
However, if you like to start the discussion about the whole book and it is ok with everyone else, I will recall my thoughts and post them soon.

[Lily]

Since the discussion is scheduled through December 31, my own gut reaction is that we ought to give other readers this week to weigh in on where they are and whether they are ready for a discussion of the story as a whole, much as I'd personally probably enjoy jumping right in. (I walked through the Sparks notes today, which was both reassuring and frustrating.)

[Denise]

I think we should wait at least a couple of weeks before discussing the later parts of the story. Some may not get to it right away, or take a while to get through it. Just my own opinion, of course.

[Lily]

Denise wrote: "...Here, we have the original narrator, recounting Douglas' retelling of the governess' narration...."

Yeh, that's rather funky and interesting will be our discussion of the significance of such to the story telling, including the reactions of Douglas and of the people who are listening.

[Frances, Moderator]

I have just finished reading, and am mystified. I did find it a challenging read, often having to reread passages to make sense of the. That being said, it was very compelling! I forgot about the several layers of narration at the beginning and was surprised they were not returned through at the end-the novel ends with the governess still narrating. Are we waiting to discuss still?

I agree, even with a short novel a reading schedule would be helpful so we could start discussing in more depth.

[Lily]

My first question -- what do you consider to be the significance of Douglas liking the governess? That one still has me mystified.

[Denise]

(view spoiler)[I also was mystified as to how she ever got another job as a governess, after what had happened at her first such post. Also, I thought it was very possible that she was insane, and the ghosts weren't real. Whether she was crazy or not, a child died while in her care, under very suspicious circumstances, and I would have thought that would have been the end of her career in that field. (hide spoiler)]

[Lily]

Denise wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Agree!

[Hedi]

Denise wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Agree as well. :-)

[Frances, Moderator]

(view spoiler)[Possibly insane, but what about her employer who essentially sends her off to the job with no oversight whatsoever? This is where the story within a story breaks down as there is no backing out where the original narrators fill in the gaps that are left. What happened to Flora and the housekeeper? Was it clear to anyone else what Miles did wrong at the school? Was he talking about the ghosts there? I was left quite confused by the book-is that typical of James? (hide spoiler)]

[Linda2]

Frances wrote: " I was left quite confused by the book-is that typical of James? (hide spoiler)] "

Yes. The question is: did James really mean it to be ambiguous, or did he write a straight ghost story and all the other interpretations have been imposed by readers? Too bad we can't interview him.

[Linda2]

Incidentally, the wonderful 1961 film, The Innocents, takes the POV that it's a straight ghost story. I think the director didn't feel audiences could handle ambiguity.

[Denise]

(view spoiler)[I thought that maybe Miles had either seen something of a sexual nature between Quint and Jessel, or they had been speaking in a sexual way in front of him, and he was repeating what he had heard. I know that others interpret it as him having been sexually abused by the pair, and talking about it. Either way, it could be that he was talking about something shocking that a children of his age shouldn't be exposed to. (hide spoiler)]

[Denise]

Rochelle wrote: "Incidentally, the wonderful 1961 film, The Innocents, takes the POV that it's a straight ghost story. I think the director didn't feel audiences could handle ambiguity."

Rochelle, that's interesting that you saw it that way. I had also seen it that way when I first saw the movie, but I saw it again recently, and this time I thought that they were leaning towards the governess being insane. Either way, great classic movie!

[Linda2]

Denise wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Incidentally, the wonderful 1961 film, The Innocents, takes the POV that it's a straight ghost story. I think the director didn't feel audiences could handle ambiguity."

Rochelle,..."

I remember it vividly from 1961, but haven't seen it since. (OMG, I was only 15!) I worshipped Deborah Kerr at that time and would not have accepted her being imsane. I think a re-viewing is in order.

[Linda2]

What's been decided? Are we going to parse sections or just do the story as a whole? My own opinion is that the story isn't long enough to pick apart sections.

[Frances, Moderator]

Is anyone still reading that book and wanting spoilers hidden?

[Lily]

Frances wrote: "I was left quite confused by the book-is that typical of James?"

I would say "yes," at least in my experience. It irritates me sometimes (as in TotS), but it also makes me think and to consider ambiguities, especially human and moral ones, which is part of why I have come to appreciate, if not always enjoy, reading the b...!

As someone has said about his writing, if it is not there, it probably means that is not what he wants his reader to be concerned about. I'm not certain that is true for TotS, but a good example is in Wings of the Dove where many of us as readers want to know more about father of one of the main protagonists, but in the end that indeed is not what is important. So I do think one does need to look at what is there. Still, on sexual matters, James did derive from Puritanical Boston in an era where, especially among people of his class, such matters were often handled in largely veiled ways.

[Lily]

Let me go back to my question in Msg 34 -- been thinking about it. It seems to me that if Douglas truly likes this woman, there must be something about her that reaches him despite the story she tells and all the first person unreliable narrator role we can ascribe to her. Now, is he looking towards the group to assess his assessment, i.e., by sharing this story that one can only imagine must be somewhat troubling to him? Given the troubling way we have reacted, what do we think happened to their relationship? Do we as readers end up supplying the end framing?

(view spoiler)[But, also interesting (because what put me onto this line of questioning was a frustrating commentary I read last night, which, if I understood it all) was a suggestion that the governess, in her imbalance, both in lack of self confidence and in excessive self belief, generated many of the evil results that ensued by forcing her assumptions onto the children and the situations. (Few good situation analysis skills on her part, leading to questionable actions -- in business consulting jargon.) (hide spoiler)]

[Lily]

A couple of dates to remember when discussing TotS -- 1) its publication date is 1898. 2) Oscar Wilde's infamous trial occurred in the spring of 1895 and he served a prison term of two years upon conviction.

[Denise]

Rochelle wrote: "Denise wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Incidentally, the wonderful 1961 film, The Innocents, takes the POV that it's a straight ghost story. I think the director didn't feel audiences could handle ambigui..."

Rochelle I think I was also a teenager when I first saw the movie (on TV). Perhaps at that age, we see things differently, or are wanting it to be a ghost story and don't look beyond that for other possibilities. If you do watch it again, I would be interested to hear if you have a different reaction to it, as I did when I saw it again recently, or whether you still see it as a straight ghost story.

[Denise]

Lily wrote: "As someone has said about his writing, if it is not there, it probably means that is not what he wants his reader to be concerned about. I'm not certain that is true for TotS, but a good example is in Wings of the Dove where many of us as readers want to know more about father of one of the main protagonists, but in the end that indeed is not what is important. So I do think one does need to look at what is there."

I haven't read Wings of the Dove, but this is also true about our other recent read in another group, The Aspern Papers, where many of us lamented not having gotten answers to various questions that had been raised in our minds over the course of the story.