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UniquelyMoi ~ BlithelyBookish
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Jun 09, 2009 05:48PM
Thank you again! I bet lots of great things will be added.
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I can't find it. What is it called?
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Still not seeing it. Where should I be looking?
I think what you have to do is start a topic, and then put it in the folder.
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I see only 4 topics there, Writing Tips isn't one of them. Are you able to see it? Perhaps I need to delete cookies?
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I'm still not seeing it. I will clear my cache and try again.
No, still not there. I even used another browser. Maybe tomorrow?
I made a writing tips topic, check it out. I hope it's there.
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It's alright Kenzie. I figured that no one had just created the topic, so I did it myself. No harm done, just bored out of my mind, so yeah.
Moi- I hope I didn't offend by tweaking it. I do see the humor in the situation and I've felt that same way when I was a kid being swept along toward some reunion with aunts and ladies I hardly know that were just waiting to pounce on me and pinch my cheek. It's a really helpless feeling for a kid.
Hope you good night sleep helps you put it in order in your mind.
I found that if I ignore it and go back later to rewrite,(after I've written more chapters later on) it comes out all together more like what I ment to say the first time.
I wasn't offended, as I said your changes made sense, it just wasn't what I am looking for. I need "deer in the headlights" kind of stuff. Like with a reunion when you get ushered towards your great, great aunt Hilda who never showers or wears deoderant but insists on lingering full body hugs...you can see it coming and can't do a thing about it.Regarding tweaking someone's writing...here's the thing. We all have different writing styles and even with well respected published authors I will find things and say "I would have written it this way," or "I would have said it that way."
When reading other people's work for critiquing, I try to avoid that unless it helps clarify something or corrects grammar or punctuation. Otherwise, I'm not reading THEIR story, I'm rewriting THEIR story and it then ceases to be theirs.
It would suck of everyone wrote like Stephen King or everyone wrote like Anne Rice.
So, if comments actually help clarify or correct errors, what is there to get offended by?
If all someone wants to do is rewrite my story because I don't use the same writing style they do, then that can be offensive and even disheartening.
I've said it over and over, because I mean it: I don't think I write that well, I'm often shaking my head wondering what Dee sees in it, but I trust her so I keep going.
If I get a little constructive (helpful) critism along the way, all the better. Like the very first part of the story, Thaddeus' memory of Yasmin and Keera, when he knew that she would be coming home with them... the placement was off and I knew it. It took another set of eyes to see where it would fit best. You didn't rewrite it, you helped give it better placement and that was appreciated.
I think I know what you mean Moi, I got one of my stories back from my readers that was so different I didn't recognize it as mine. WHole new paragraphs were added and I was like ?huh?Then I worry about where do I stop and they begin?
It's hard. I;m trying hard to be more like suggestive with yours.
And I know dee and I have said it over and over... but your writing is WONDERFUL!! It's funny and yet romantic and adventurous. I think you are destined to be published when you get that through your head and stop doubting yourself. We believe in you- so when your own faith lacks, borrow a but of ours and use that light to go by until you refill your own "lamp" as it were. :)
Thank you for kindness. The best thing you can do for me is not just make a suggestion, but explain why. That helps me understand where you're coming from and enables me to decide what direction I want to go. Dee has made specific suggestions, but sometimes they didn't feel like "me." So, I took her suggestions and because I understood where she was coming from, I was able to rewrite a certain part but it was still "me." Does that make sense?
With yours, as I am reviewing it, if I see something that I think needs tweaking, I explain why. I do it right there on the page so you can see exactly what I mean. (A trick Dee taught me) But in the end, it's your story and you can choose to use or ignore any suggestion freely.
It's a great story, by the way. I think you're doing a great job and it will attract the YA audience you're after very nicely.
Questions for those published authors:Do you find it difficult to get critisism, even if it's constructive and well intentioned?
Has it gotten easier with time?
How much of the comments and suggestions do you take to heart?
When asking friends to read your yet unpublished manuscript, do you ask the same people who might have read a previous work?
Having spent quite a bit of time editing and rewriting other peoples work, I try to explain as I go what I'm doing to it and why...It makes it easier for the author to follow the logic of the 'criticism' ...
It doesn't mean that the authors are going to adopt my specific changes or recommendations, but it does allow them to see the 'problems' from a different perspective.
... but you hit it head on UM...
Ultimately the 'voice' has to be yours.
That is the big challenge in ghost-writing ... fitting what you do into someone else's 'voice', while at the same time keeping your own voice unique... and not a blend of others.
Mod
I think that when your story is in its infancy, that you have to be cautious of showing it to too many people.
When I start a new story, I only show it to a select few. Once it is completed. I show it to one editor at a time. I get their feed-back and make the changes I deem worthy. Then I send it to the next editor.
When your story is still in the early stages, having too much input from too many sources, can stifle your creativity. Or worse yet, it can force your story into a direction that it was not destined to go.
So, pick your first “readers” with care, and when you are finished…send your completed story to one editor at a time. Get their input, digest their feedback, and after making any changes, then, and only then, send it to the next editor.
Having multiple readers or editors making suggestions at the same time about your story, only results in confusion and frustration :]
Dee- so what do you think about how King says to have 6-8 readers so you can see what several people think before you make any changes? He says if one or two say somehting, he goes with his own gut feeling on what to change or leave, but if half or more say something he pays attention even if he doesn't agree with it.
Mod
I know for a fact that King never shows his first draft to anyone...(and I doubt if he shows his second or third to anyone other than his wife).
As to changes...you have to go with your gut. It is "your story." I agree that once you have finished your story that you need to look at it through objective eyes...and again, only get input from one editor at a time.
In SOA I originally had a writing desk. Several of my editors (at different times) objected to the the word "desk." So, even though it was a word I wanted to use, I changed it to writing table.
Now, if you go with a big publisher, you may be under a strict contract to allow a heavy-handed editor to re-write your story...and there will be no recourse on your part. So always read you contract carefully before you sign the dotted line :]
You also could have no say what so ever in the cover, or the title.
But getting back to editing. If you are really serious about your writing...It is important to get input from professional editors, not just friends and family. And it is also important to follow the one editor at a time rule!
Thank you for your comments, Dee. You're the only one who has seen "everything" (not even my own family has that kind of access) and Wendy has seen some bits and pieces. And you're very right about people leading your story into another direction, albeit inadvertantly. For example, my husband said that Tobias drinks too much and to tone it down. If I tone it down, it will change who Tobias is, who I need him to be, and his own discovery of who he is, the man he has to potential to be, will not be as dramatic.That's what I was saying about when I read someone's work, I try to avoid suggesting changes unless those changes will clearly enhance, maker clearer or add to the story...not just because I like the way something sounds better...that is writing style and I don't want to make anyone elses work mine.
The problem I have, and I only realized it within the past couple days is that when I get suggestions, unless they include the 'whys' along with it, I tend to think that they are clearly getting something that I am missing, therefore I must be a moron.
Then I spend days or weeks beating myself up over it.
It's not that I don't appreciate the feedback, I really do, but I need to be educated as well.
I have had SEVERAL people from the forum ask to read the story, but I'm not confident enough to go there. And it sounds like that's a good thing.
Just a time out to brag.... I posted this elsewhere, so I hope it's not a repeat for anyone here.Many of you know that I home school my kids. My daughter has been taking college classes since she turned 16. This is an email exchange between she and her college English professor.
From my daughter to her English Teacher:
I would like to say how much I truly enjoyed your class and hope that I will see you again next semester. Now, all sucking up aside, I would appreciate it if you would e-mail me the overall grade I received in your class.
Megan
From the teacher to my daughter:
Well Miss Megan, I enjoyed having you in my class; whenever I needed a dose of sanity, I needed only to look in your direction to be grounded once again. Your overall and final grade for this course is an A. Hope to see you again next semester as well. Enjoy your summer.
(And she has an overall 4.0 for last semester. Home schooling can be very scary, always second guessing the decision...can I really teach them enough to get them through college, etc. So I am very proud of her and thrilled for her.)
Mod
You are an amazing writer. You have a natural flow to your story…you are not just a writer, you are a wordsmith.
If you are serious about getting published (and you know that I believe in your story and feel that it is very marketable), I would never ever publish it online…for many reasons.
The first and foremost, is that once a work is published online, it technically becomes a “published” piece. Some of the big houses refuse to look at stories that have been published on a web site. It would be different if you joined a critique group and the critiques were private. But, if you publish your story online where anyone in the world can view…it is considered published work!
I know this as a fact, as I have been on both ends of the publishing business.
If you wish to get feedback from your story, or just to work out a section. By all means, post a small section of what you are working on, or post a synopsis of your story and the part you wish to get input about online.
But, as I have said from the very beginning. It is Your Story. Consume the advice that others give, but only swallow what you “feel” is worthy and spit out the rest when it comes to storyline.
Now on the subject of form and function…as in Do Not double space between sentences [that will get your story rejected faster than you can imagine:] OR be sure to give each character his or her own paragraph when speaking…those are just two of the rules of the road that you “need” to be followed.
If your character is drinking to excess…there is most likely a reason that he is doing so. It may not be obvious in the beginning, but as the story goes along, it may become critical to the plot. I know that was the case with Ambros. His excessive drinking was his way of cooping with the mounting pressures of becoming the High King at such a young age.
On the other hand…when writing SOA, I did not realize how many times my characters were bowing until I finished the story. I took out over half of the bowing when one of my editors brought it to my attention that my characters were always bent over :]
Oh, and each editor has their own particular thing that really bothers them. One of my editors hated it when I would use the phrase “He caught his eye.” I could hear her screaming each time she found one of those phrases within my manuscript (and she lives in Calif.). I would get a big “red penciled” line-through with the words…”Ewwwwwww that is so gross! Who catches someone’s eye” :]
Please always keep in mind that you, my dear, have talent. Now get back to writing more chapters!
Mod
Part of that is due to you! So huge hugs to you for doing such an amazing job too!
Dee wrote: "Hey UMYou are an amazing writer. You have a natural flow to your story…you are not just a writer, you are a wordsmith.
If you are serious about getting published (and you know that I believe..."
This brought tears to my eyes, seriously. I'm going to copy and paste to the front of my story so when I start getting those yukky feelings, I have something to fall back on.
I've learned so much from you, things that never would have crossed my mind but make all the sense in the world...giving each character their own space/paragraph really makes a huge difference in being able to follow the story. Plus, it gives added incentive to allow more voice to the character as well because with a new paragraph comes new needs to fill it out.
Anyway, thank you again. You have a way of making me believe in myself. Ummm, can you come live with me? I'll let you help with the roses! :)
*hugs*
Oh, and I'm plugging away at chapter 5, working on the festival, and also filling out Kiris' role. Her name is going to change, by the way. Soon as I can come up with a good one.The problem is that when her significant other calls her Kir, it sounds too much like Keera.
Mod
Oh and did I ever tell you about my rose garden story. A couple years back. I was very brave and planted 7 rose bushes at one time.
It actually took me a whole summer before I killed them all...but I dee-gress...
One day I was in the garden picking roses and I heard a buzzing by my ear. Thinking it was a bee, I gently lifted my hand to carefully shoo it away.
All of a sudden I felt a tiny "nudge" on my fingertip. I look over and there was a hummingbird hovering over my hand.
It was the most magical feeling in the world, to be kissed by a hummingbird :]
Next time I am out west, I may just take you up on your offer to live in your rose garden ;]
I love hummingbirds! We hooked up a retractable clothesline on the back patio because I try to save the planet whenever/however I can, using less gas to dry clothes is one way...anyway, we discovered that there is a hummingbird that comes and sits on the line and looks in the house. LOL I named him Bobby Flay. Don't know why, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Mod
He also did a mating dance with his life-partner while we were eating dinner outside one lazy late spring afternoon. Later that summer he would bring his baby over to meet me.
Hummingbirds are truly mystical :]
I never named them, not sure why, as I name most everything else.
I think Bobby Flay is a great name :]
Uniquely Moi wrote: "This is Lynn Viehl's blog. Let's Play Writer's Jeopardy!"What is, Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My?
wow, I hate catching up to soo many posts . . . :D lol What's this with Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My? That's from The Wizard of Oz . . . gosh, I'm lost.
"In addition to Tabby's first read, I usually send manuscripts to between four and eight other people who have critiqued my stories over the years." "...wouldn't you rather hear the news [if it sucks:] from a friend while the entire edition consists of a half dozen Xerox copies?
"When you give out six or eight copies of a book you get back six or eight highly subjective opinions about what's good and what's bad in it."
Stephen King's On Writing, pg.217-218
He then goes on to say that if half of them say one thing and half another, "it's a wash, and tie goes to the writer," but if most of them say the same thing, you probably ought to take notice.
Dee & UM this is why I thought King didn't do it one at a time; because after reading his book on writing, I got the impression that he does send several out at once at the same time as his wife gets to make her first read of it. He writes it with the door closed, then sends out the 6-8 manuscripts and then shuts the door for his editing again- not to emerge again until he consideres it "done."
Not to say that Dee's advice of one at a time isn't a better way, I'm sure it works really well that way too. Dee is, after all, our hero and champion of merlin (whose story we love).
Wendy;I read that too and looked through it again. King doesn't send his first draft necessarily but he does send to more than one reader at a time. He collects them and then goes through them at the same time when editing. He considers their advice and if more than one mention the same thing, he revises.
I think Dee's advice of only one editor makes sense, it's not so confusing. I find hearing so many different reviews muddles my brains a bit. But I haven't tried his method of collecting and poring over them, comparing and making his edits based on all the reviews as a whole. It's a little more organized if done that way.
I send to more than one because people read and review at different speeds. I may get one person back with feedback in a few days, another may take a month. Technically, with the exception of the chapters I post for review here, i guess they are coming in one at a time. So, Dee's way works. That is why she is the hero and we are the um....I don't know where i was going with that. it was going to be good though.
Thank you for that, Wendy. I think I want to send mine out only to people who will like it, but I didn't see that listed as an option.LOL
Of course they will like it, are you crazy? Don't be so silly. Positive thinking gets positive results. I swear it works.
I can see the benefit of both ways, actually. I had Dee telling me one thing and someone else telling me something totally different (can you say "paler"?) and it got very frustrating.I had considered giving up, thinking "How can I please everyone?" Well, I can't. But I won't give up, either.
Moi! Yes kind reviews are definitly what I hope for too. If something sucks, it's better to hear it from a friend who you know is rooting for you to succeed, than from some arbitrary person who might just get kicks out of shredding people's stories. Some of the reviews people give to books on goodreads leave the screen smoking from such a fiery condemnation. I like the well reasoned ones better than the "this garbage is so crappy this person should be shot for ever writing another word!"
But you aren't trying to please them entirely. Your readers are just giving you suggestions. Just because they didn't like something, doesn't mean 500 others won't like it. If you like it, keep it. You are the writer here, and it is your story. If it's grammar, punctuation or technical stuff like that, then fix it. As far as your story and characters, only change if you agree. Simple.
Moi- as I previously stated, your paler lady had something wedged up there too tight. She can't help but be a prudish weirdo, when you walk around with a condition like that for too long, it makes you crazy- and not in the endearing fun way that we all love, just in the witchy irritatingly superiorn way we try to avoid. Ignore her. Move on to the reviews of people who love you. :)
Renee, I actually had hoped to please everyone. I know better now.Wendy, I was floored that such an unimportant thing would warrant such anomosity.
Well more pale vs paler is nothing to get her panties in a bunch over, but if you said more cute instead of cuter- then by golly I'd be offended.That was a joke by the way. My story has "gunna" "wanna" "git" and many other not so schooled words, but you know what? they are how people talk and how I think so no big wup.
People just need to relax sometimes and remember that the story is the writer's and no one elses. - just like you say all the time! :)
ON a totally different subject, has anyone else had a circle with a lady in it move across the screen here on good reads? It's some kids of survey thing. Every time it does that it startles me. I just don't expect it!And renee helped clarify what I didn't understand- if you are actually having someone edit your paper- then sure, one at a time for sure. I like having several readers, but not several editors, that would hurt my brain.
Uniquely Moi wrote: "I can see the benefit of both ways, actually. I had Dee telling me one thing and someone else telling me something totally different (can you say "paler"?) and it got very frustrating."If you're sending your work to an 'editor'***...
(***Say the words 'employee or representative of a publishing house')
... then yes, I'd only work with one at a time. It does get confusing otherwise.
I've never simultaneously submitted a work to editors at multiple houses... Can't imagine why I ever would either...
When it comes to 'reviewers' ...(i.e. your friends and other 'readers') .. their input is, and should be;
Did you like it... Yes or no
What did you like?
What did you dislike?
What did you find confusing?
Did you find inconsistencies?
Things like that. It's a tool to help you gauge overall response to the story, the characters, the plot.... before it gores to the editors.
You can assume they will not be seeing the final 'negotiated' version of the manuscript... the one with the changes your editor has 'suggested' or that the publisher has 'demanded'...
Annie Mae wrote: "wow, I hate catching up to soo many posts . . . :D lol What's this with Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My? That's from The Wizard of Oz . . . gosh, I'm lost."Read the blog entry on Writers Jeopardy ...
I'd agree with Gwen. Multiple readers who can say things like - it lacked action, or your POV changed too often, or suggest changes to structure - fewer flashbacks, move the death chapter forward a bit, add something here...Of course, that supposes that your readers are like us, and therefore actually know about stuff like structure and POV. You could have say three of us, and three 'ordinary' readers - i.e. people who read for pleasure, but don't write themselves.
Then make changes based on the sum of the readers' opinions and your opinion, your's always havingthe casting vote. Then edit it, or send it to an editor, or just submit direct to an agent.
Of course, you could repeat the reader/self-edit cycle a number of times, but there comes a point when you have to say 'enough is enough' and submit the thing...
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