TDSOH: Daily reading log

[Pedro]

Hello. I have recently joined the Sword and Laswer group and wanted to have some community interaction, so I figured a good way to go about it would be picking up the book of the month for the book club and start a daily reading log where I share my experiences with the book as I read through.
Being relatively new to the fantasy genre this is my first Tad Williams' book so all my opinions and comments will be solely based on Dirty Streets of Heaven.

Just finished chapter 10, so there'll be mild spoilers up to the end of chapter 10 below. Please don't talk about events that take place from chapter 11 onwards until I post about them, so I nor anyone reading gets spoiled. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and onwards to the first update:

If you haven't read chapter 10 stop here.

Never having read anything by Tad Williams I was pleasantly surprised by a really great prologue. A lot of the time you can't quite say why a prologue isn't just called chapter 1.
The tone for the whole book is immediately set: nothing is taken TOO seriously and the mood is generally light enough that you don't go for more than a couple of pages without at least smiling. The prologue also manages to reveal just enough about what can happen in this world for the reader to have something to look forward to. Reading through and going back to double check the name of the prologue brought a satisfied smile to my lips, I could tell the overall feeling of the book would be something that would have me flipping pages without even realising it.

Once the book properly starts we're introduced to the main characters, none of which struck me as annoying or anything (which is certainly a first for me), and their twist for how death works had me quite interested, even if the concept itself isn't exactly new.
After Walker dies and the major plot point is established the book really reminds me of Kafka's The Trial, albeit with the sort of dirty humour that's present from the very first page. Once again not a new concept, but one that's cleverly used and ends up working really well.

In a very short amount of time the book leaves us with a lot of questions we want to find the answers for:
- Who's Clarence?
- Who or what is trying to frame Bobby and for what purpose?
- Why are angels' memories erased?
- Why is this "Highest" an unknown entity to the vast majority of Heaven?
- Are the souls that populate The Fields truly happy?
(that's it off the top of my head, probably missing a lot of obvious ones)

Thus far I must say I'm enjoying the book quite a lot. Not going as far as to say it's amazing (from what I've read this is not Tad Williams' usual kind of book, so I suppose it wouldn't be exactly fair to judge the author based on this book alone), but it's just the kind of light mooded urban fantasy I wanted to read right now.

I've laughed quite a few times already and I'm very interested to know what happens next so thus far I'm happy this was chosen for the book club.

Will update the thread tomorrow with what I manage to read up to that point and if you read everything thus far, thank you! :)
(This post will probably have quite a few errors, I swear my English gets worse by the day. Sorry about that!)

[terpkristin]

Well, I gave up the book after finishing chapter 9, so I've had quite the opposite experience.

But I have to say, to one of the points you made here, I hate when authors put cheap action scenes in a "prologue" and then call the "let me step back and explain what is going on" chapter 1. There was no reason to put the prologue in other than to suck in the reader before the exponentially boring stuff started...and I really really really really hate the "well, let me explain what's going on" thing no matter where it comes in a book.

I'm glad others like the book, but man that prologue drove me nuts. So did the book. I lemmed it.

[Rob, Roberator]

terpkristin wrote: "I hate when authors put cheap action scenes in a "prologue" and then call the "let me step back and explain what is going on" chapter 1."

I think I griped about that in my review, but as I'm on my tablet, I'm too lazy to check.

Needless to say, I find a painfully overused technique, especially in TV.

[Pedro]

terpkristin wrote:But I have to say, to one of the points you made here, I hate when authors put cheap action scenes in a "prologue" and then call the "let me step back and explain what is going on" chapter 1.

I get where you're coming from, and being completely objective you're actually right. I hadn't even realised that the prologue does indeed promise a lot more than the first quarter of the book ends up being.
I suppose the humour that's present throughout the whole book prevented me from seeing that as an issue or even noticing it in the first place.

We'll see how that plays out as I keep reading. I can definitely understand people lemming the book if the characters don't particularly interest you or the humour doesn't grab you. There frankly isn't much more to it than that, though it might just be enough to keep people reading. (it's working for me!)

[Pedro]

Mild spoilers up to chapter 20 below

Right, so things have finally started moving. The book has caught up to the prologue and we're getting some action.

The main intrigue is still quite interesting and I can't wait to find more about this golden feather and why so many people seem to be after it, and Bobby is still very entertaining albeit a bit too predictable both in his actions and comments.

Even with all the action scenes and the Ghallu chasing Bobby for what seems like 5 chapters I find that there isn't that much happening even though I keep flipping pages. Tad Williams seems to ramble A LOT about things that have absolutely no relevance to the plot. A lot of them actually start out like nice descriptions or a nice bit of backstory but they drag on for so long that I end up losing interest and can't wait til the plot moves on again.

Another of the things that's starting to annoy me a bit is how static all the other characters are. None of them has been fleshed out one bit (Sam is referenced here and there in Bobby's backstory, but it's not like you get to know anything about him as a character) and it feels like they're just there so Bobby has people to interact with, cardboard figures waiting for Bobby to come in before they start doing what they're supposed to do.

The humour is still good enough and I want to know more about the feather so I'm probably at the point of no return and will read the whole book either way, but I can't say I feel a connection to any of the characters or that the writing itself contributes to the book's appeal, much the contrary. Thus far it's a mediocre book with an interesting concept that's not executed nearly as well as it could have, but we'll see how that evolves.

[Emmalynne]

Pedro wrote: "Mild spoilers up to chapter 20 below

Right, so things have finally started moving. The book has caught up to the prologue and we're getting some action.

The main intrigue is still quite interesti..."

I agree. At first I really liked to writing style and the humor, etc. But as the book continues to move along I feel there isn't any 'substance', okay that's probably not the correct word to use - but I keep turning the pages hoping for something to happen and it seems as though it never does. Williams gives a little here in there but you have to search for it in everything else.

I also wish that the other characters had some substance to them, but the book is about Bobby Dollar so this hasn't bothered me as much, perhaps we'll learn more about them in the other books in the series?

I I couldn't have said what your last paragraph says better myself, I'm in the same boat.

[Rob, Roberator]

Pedro wrote: "but I can't say I feel a connection to any of the characters or that the writing itself contributes to the book's appeal, much the contrary. Thus far it's a mediocre book with an interesting concept that's not executed nearly as well as it could have, but we'll see how that evolves. "

That describes how I felt at the end unfortunately. Maybe it will be different for you by the end though.

[Pedro]

I'm glad I'm not the odd one out. The book does seem to be getting mixed reviews, even from fans of the author. I'll probably have to keep that in mind if I still feel like this by the end of the book.

[Anne]

I'm just 6% in, but I felt like I had to chime in agreeing with terpkristin that I hate it when movies or tv shows start with a cliffhanger and then you get the "36 hours earlier" title displayed.

I didn't notive until now that the book does the exact same thing and I found it slightly annoying, although I hated the prologue more than what I read so far. I guess I'm not a big fan of being pushed right into the action, I like my books to start slow(er).

[Lindsay]

The predominance of this tactic in TV and in a lot of recent books is just a reflection of today's media consumption.

When the iPad/iPhone/generic internet connected device is in your lap and you could at any moment switch your attention to your twitter feed/facebook page/addictive game, this bit of action up front acts like a promise that whatever plodding setup or boring exposition is about to take place is *going* to be worth it.

And specifically speaking about this book, it definitely needed it. In terms of pacing the exposition reads like ... well ... a Tad Williams book :)

[Pedro]

Looking back, even though I felt a bit cheated by the prologue in terms of promising a lot more than the first 10-11 chapters offer, I'm not sure most people will get through those chapters without the promise of such kind of action.

The depth of the characters certainly won't keep anyone around, and if you don't like the humour enough then the prologue is about the one thing that keeps you from lemming before anything actually happens.

Still not the way to go about it and if something like this is needed to keep people around, then I guess there's a lot more wrong than just the prologue.

[Pedro]

Spoilers up to chapter 31



So, the book's overall feeling remains the same. Characters are as deep as cardboard and both the humour and all the mystery surrounding the disappearance of all those souls as well as the golden feather keep things interesting enough that I won't lem it.

One scene that particularly jumped at me was the sex scene with Caz. It felt way too long (and really, what's with the calves fixation!? There were at least four separate mentions of them)and completely forced. There was no reason whatsoever for Caz to risk so much with a lowly servant of Heaven, and I very much doubt she'd still be around if she exposed herself this easily.
I can see Bobby's side of it and it does make sense, but no matter which way I look at it, it really doesn't from Caz's.
Telling all her backstory also felt really unnecessary, as did the whole scene to be honest.

On the other hand, the search for the feather as well as the lost souls is getting really interesting and is, in my opinion, one of the book's few redeeming features.

Things I can't wait to find out (hopefully in this book, though I'm not holding my breath):
- Who the Magians are and what role Habari plays in all this
- Where Grasswax hid the feather and who actually killed him
- Is Clarence really special at all?
- Why did the Mule somehow forget (or made forgotten) he had asked Bobby to spy on Clarence?
- Is there any reason why Caz acts this way around Bobby?
- Who's Foxy and what's his take on all this?
- If there is the possibility of choice upon death, why did the Highest make it so you only have two options and both of them for eternity?

[Lindsay]

You're definitely asking the right questions.

I think the whole Casimira relationship is about ticking boxes on the whole noir trope. The deeply tragic but adorable love interest has been a staple since before Sam Spade.

[Pedro]

Lindsay wrote: "I think the whole Casimira relationship is about ticking boxes on the whole noir trope. The deeply tragic but adorable love interest has been a staple since before Sam Spade. "

That's the impression I got as well. And even if the whole "nice guy falls for dangerous girl" situation would still be a cliché, I would've been alright with it if it made any sense. My biggest issue is that it just doesn't, in any level.

[Dara]

Pedro, I agree with you about the relationship with Caz and how the characters are as deep as cardboard. Dead on.

[AndrewP]

terpkristin wrote: "But I have to say, to one of the points you made here, I hate when authors put cheap action scenes in a "prologue" and then call the "let me step back and explain what is going on" chapter 1. ..."

Hmmmm... but isn't that how The Way of Kings starts out? :)

[Rob, Roberator]

AndrewP wrote: "Hmmmm... but isn't that how The Way of Kings starts out? :) "

Boo. I haven't read that yet. Not thrilled to hear that's how he starts it. Oh well. I love Sanderson's stuff, so I'm sure I'll get over it.

Honestly that wasn't what made me meh on the book, but it did annoy me at the time I was reading it.

[terpkristin]

Yes sort of. I don't mind when it's side plot ish. Also Way of Kings doesn't start out with a prologue and a backstep per se. The entire first character's story goes back and forth in time, but the first step back in time is 7 years prior to the main line events, not to the events in the prologue.

Hysterically, as I've been laid up, I've been watching an unhealthy amount of NCIS. The show didn't used to do it, but many if the episodes in seasons 5 and on do just that, so annoying.

[AndrewP]

Rob wrote: "Boo. I haven't read that yet. Not thrilled to hear that's how he starts it. Oh well. I love Sanderson's stuff, so I'm ..."

Don't sweat it Rob. Way of Kings is still one of the best books I have read in a long time :)

[David Sven]

Proplogue's don't bother me. Unless the kindle decides to skip it entirely and start me on page one. I resent the fact that I have to "goto cover" every time I start a book. Maybe I forgot this book because I really can't remember the prologue. I didn't mind the book so much in the beginning but the monologue and humour wore on me.

[Pedro]

So I just finished the book. I must say I was disappointed with the ending, like we weren't given as much as we should've taking into account this is supposed to be a trilogy.

Most of my thoughts overall are summed up in my review (http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...) though I'll chime in later with some spoilery stuff I didn't want to mention in the review.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Cool idea. I'd still recommend spoiler tags for the benefit of the many who get the email digest.

[Pedro]

Jenny wrote: "Cool idea. I'd still recommend spoiler tags for the benefit of the many who get the email digest."

Thank you! And that's very true, I had completely forgotten about that. I'll make sure to properly tag spoilers from now on.

[Pedro]

Spoiler tags refer to spoilers for the whole book

(guess I'll just spoiler tag the whole post to be on the safe side.)

(view spoiler)[So I just finished the book. And once again I have quite mixed feelings about it.

This second sex scene was even more pointless if that's even possible. I honestly can't see any reason for them to be in the book at all, they are actually detrimental to the overall quality and serve no real purpose.

This last REALLY long escape scene was actually quite good, even though it still feels like there's a bit too many of them. Bobby is quite helpless in combat, I get it (even though he really shouldn't, he's been a Harp). No need to have him running away every odd chapter.

The explanation for the feather made sense as well, but I'm not sure I quite like the less than subtle nod to the first Harry Potter too much.
The third way stuff was interesting, and so was finding out Sam was Habari all along. This is one of the things I'm really looking forward to knowing more about in the second book.

Clarence's bit felt rushed as hell. You get some backstory at the very beginning, about halfway you have the Mule forgetting he had asked Bobby to keep an eye on him, and then at the end they just reveal he truly was a spy all along. I wish there was more content to it, the way it's done Bobby wouldn't have any reason to keep bringing up he's still suspicious of Clarence and I can't say I cared much about it since there's no development whatsoever to Clarence anyway.

Character development is still one of the book's weakest aspects, which is weird given that this'll be a trilogy. You'd expect enough development that you want to find out how the characters keep evolving in the later books, but there really is none in TDSOH.

Humour was the book's saving grace and I really can't say a bad thing about it. It's one of the things that kept me from lemming and made the whole experience quite enjoyable, even if I can see it getting really annoying for people who don't like it from the start. As with most things in the book, it doesn't really change.

Perhaps the thing that annoys me the most is how much potential this new universe has. Williams can do just so many great things with it that it pains me TDSOH fell so short of what it could've been.

Things I want to see in the second one:
- More great humour
- A satisfying continuation to the Third Way plot
- More about the Highest's motivations to do things as they are done
- A few more existential questions being brought up, this universe just asks for that kind of thing
- No forced sex scenes
- Less rambling
- Some time spent giving characters proper backstories and actual development
- Some complex soul judgements, we get the tricky one with Clarence at the very beginning with all the others being really shallow and just filler (hide spoiler)]

[Rob, Roberator]

Pedro wrote: (view spoiler)["You get some backstory at the very beginning, about halfway you have the Mule forgetting he had asked Bobby to keep an eye on him" (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[My impression was he was FEIGNING not remembering to protect himself (hide spoiler)]

Pedro wrote: "Humour was the book's saving grace and I really can't say a bad thing about it. It's one of the things that kept me from lemming and made the whole experience quite enjoyable, even if I can see it getting really annoying for people who don't like it from the start. As with most things in the book, it doesn't really change."

I didn't find the humor that great. There were a few jokes I laughed at, but not many. Humor is highly subjective though. I'd read a lot of the jokes and roll my eyes.

I kept coming back to comparing it to Dresden and for me it just falls short again and again. Harry Dresden/Jim Butcher always has me laughing out loud as I'm reading. Bobby Dollar/Tad Williams, not so much.

Overall I'll probably wait for paperback or simply borrow the next books in the series from the library (which is rare for me I have the means so I like to support the authors I'm reading and buy most of the books I read).

[Mohrravvian]

Hm, well on reading this thread I'm glad I decided to skip this one. I did read all of Otherland 1 - 4 Boxed Set by Tad which I enjoyed, largely for the interesting plot device, but I also found at times difficult to get through although I couldn't put my finger on why. I had planned to read Shadowmarch though because I have heard good things about it... but it isn't high on my list.

Anyway I guess I'm just rambling, but my point is that I'm not too disappointed I skipped this one, since even the guy who started out liking it ended up finding it lacking.

[Pedro]

Rob wrote: "Pedro wrote: [spoilers removed]

[spoilers removed]Pedro wrote: "Humour was the book's saving grace and I really can't say a bad thing about it. It's one of the things that kept me from lemming and..."

I can totally understand some people not being into TDSOH's kind of humour. And really, if you don't stick with the book for the humour, chances are you'll just lem halfway through.

I'll probably also give at least the next one a chance. There are some really good things about the book, and the bad ones can be fixed so the second one might just be the book I expected TDSOH to be.



Mohrravvian wrote: "Hm, well on reading this thread I'm glad I decided to skip this one. I did read all of Otherland 1 - 4 Boxed Set by Tad which I enjoyed, largely for the interesting plot device, but I also found at..."

I've been hearing good things from Williams' work, even from people who also didn't like TDSOH. I'll definitely have to give those a chance in the future, as TDSOH seems to be one of Williams' weakest books overall.