Infinite Jest - Chunky- Discussion thread

[Irene]

I also agree that that phone conversation was powerful. When DFW does those moments where you are given a glimse of honesty under the surface of a protective veneer, he is brilliant.

[Amy]

Today is DFW's birthday. Book Riot has a great meme posted at http://bookriot.com/2013/02/21/the-li...

[Sheila , Supporting Chick]

That is great, Amy. I love that quote.

I just noticed that the "quote of the day" for today (Feb 21st) here on Goodreads was also a DFW quote. They must have picked it in honor of his birthday.

“Everybody is identical in their secret unspoken belief that way deep down they are different from everyone else.”
— David Foster Wallace

[Rebecca]

What is our next chunky read?

[Sheila , Supporting Chick]

Rebecca wrote: "What is our next chunky read?"

Selection of the Chunky reads is up to Meg.
But our next classic read is going to be Les Misérables, and it qualifies as a chunky. (see Classic Reads thread for this discussion) :o)

[Petra]

I love Les Mis. It's such a timeless, perfect story. Hugo can be descriptive in his narrative (however, his writing is so, so powerful)....but any of us who've read IJ are used to that now. :D
I read another of his books last year, The Man Who Laughs. The story wasn't as wonderful as Les Mis but his powerful writing style shone through and I thoroughly enjoyed reading this book.

[Petra]

I keep thinking about Joelle and Don. They seem to both be opening up (a little....considering their circumstances & backgrounds). That makes me think of a budding romance of some sort? Joelle isn't allowed sex (dating?) for a year, as per the NA rules but Don is coming to the end of his year. Interesting dynamics.
This thought also makes me wonder about Orin. He's clearly not over Joelle.


I found this site that has much better summaries than mine. There is a lot more detail.
I've linked to their notes on pages 489-538:

http://dfw-ij.blogspot.mx/2009/06/p-4...

[Petra]

I'm almost finished with this week's section and will post a summary later today.

In general, the feeling I get from this section is one of lining up the ducks and getting ready to push the story into full force.
There's a lot of waffling (lobbing?? :D) back and forth around scenes we've already read about, filling in more details and (somewhat) showing us the time-sequence of events.

How's everyone doing this week? How are you all feeling about the book?
What are your general thoughts about the book? The characters? The events? or anything doing with this book, DFW or how it relates to our society?

In general, DFW seems to be poking at our society's need to be entertained and the to-heck-with-who-it-hurts attitude society sometimes takes with entertainment.
There's the Samizdat (the ultimate entertainment/harm package), drugs/alcohol (which then take over one's life) and the tennis players are seen as entertainment for the audience (without regard to the circumstances of success for the player), for example.

We're nearing the end now. Only 3 weeks left.

[Amy]

I'm still enjoying the book. I love the way he addresses addiction in all its forms - even to sports and winning like we see through individuals at ETA.

[Sheila , Supporting Chick]

Petra wrote: "How are you all feeling about the book?
What are your general thoughts about the book? The characters? The events? or anything doing with this book, DFW or how it relates to our society? "

Well I have to admit that I am hating this book more and more with each passing page. I think this is one of those books that most people either love or hate, and for me it is falling on the hate side. :o)

I am tired of reading about addiction, and drugs, and crazy people, and addiction, and drugs, and tennis, and crazy people, and more drugs. And I don't like DFW for burying little nuggets of important information into lines and lines and pages and pages of blah blah blah blah blah. :o)

But that is just me. I am loving your commentary Petra, and your summaries, because this book frustrates and irritates me so much that sometimes you catch things that I read right over with the blah blah blah. And I will be so happy when I can mark this as "read".

[Rebecca]

I say bravo to anyone that is reading every word of IJ because I have not done it. I have skimmed over plenty. I think I would agree Petra this last section I have really enjoyed. I really like Orin's section. Of course I loved having Don on the scene again. The fight was scary. I am not sure what the attraction to Joelle is for Don G though. I guess I am still fascinated by the drugs and AA. I am definatley naive and clueless about the drug world. I wouldn't want Gately's job. I should be caught up later tonight.

[Petra]

Sheila, thanks! I'm glad the summaries are helpful. I'm sorry you aren't enjoying the book more but very glad that you're hanging in with us through this read.

Although, at times, the descriptions can go on and on, I'm really liking the descriptions. They capture completely so many thoughts and feelings that abound around us.
It's amazing how DFW puts so much in so few words. For example:
"The urban lume makes the urban night only semi-dark, as in licoricey, a luminescence just under the skin....."
(I have never thought of licorice this way but it is semi-dark and luminous)

"...the sound of everybody's different footwear's footsteps all put together sounds like something getting chewed by something huge and tireless and patient."

"....Krause never so much walking as making an infinite series of grand entrances into pocket after pocket of space..."
(I really like the visuals that this sentence brings)

[Petra]

Rebecca, that fight was scary and yet kind of exciting, too. It says a lot that none of the residents left while they could. They all stayed and helped and then went back "home".
Don G is such a sweetie. I think he's just looking for companionship and a friendly voice. However, the veil may be alluring, too. It brings a mystique and mystery to Joelle. Perhaps its just a matter of by not being able to see her face, he's free to see the real Joelle...to listen to what she says and not be distracted by her beauty (or otherwise). DFW could be saying that physical attributes detract from people seeing what's more important and unobservable.

[Petra]

Summary (pages 601-698)


Selected Snippets (con't)
- Bruce Green misses curfew & Don G decides to let him back into Ennis House. Amy J misses curfew & Don G decides not to let her back into Ennis House. Parked cars need to be parked on the other side of the road at midnight. Goons (some of them Canadians) come for Lenz, a fight breaks out on the street after Lenz antagonizes them, Don G gets shot.
"O" - the WYYY Engineer (who worked with Madame Psychosis) is kidnapped by a man in a wheelchair.

11 Nov YDAU
- in the ETA dining hall, discussion about whether the milk is powdered, the bagels are day-olds and a discussion on the Lung not being up despite the cold weather and it being later than usual for the erection of the Lung.
- inanimate objects are moving to inappropriate locations....no one knows how or why
- Hal has gone drug-free
- ETA is considered "a comparatively unsexual place"
- Hal talks with Ingersoll

May YDAU
- Maranthe & Steeply: Steeply tells of his dad's obsession with M*A*S*H

13 Nov YDAU
- Geoffrey Day & Kate Gompert: Day tells of his bout of "darkness" and how he understands the urge to kill oneself

11 Nov YDAU
- a series of events, most of which we already know that all happened simultaneously (which we didn't know):
1. Hal & Stice play tennis; Helen Steeply watches from the bleachers
2. Don Gately is snoring in his room after being shot
3. Poor Tony Krause in the men's stall in the Armenian Foundation Library going through withdrawal (shortly before his seizure)
4. MM Pemulis and JG Struck seated at a table in Reference in the BU School of Pharmacy
5. Helen Steeply's green car is in the ETA parking lot
6. Charles Tavis talks with parents of kids hurt during the Eschaton game
7. Avril's whereabouts at this time are unknown
8. Orin with the Swiss hand-model in a hotel in Pheonix, AZ

- Helen Steeply writes to Marlon Bain for info on Orin. Marlon replies in Footnote 269; lots of info re: Orin & the Moms
- the sub-14 Eschatonite males clean the tunnels of debris. They are directly below the court that Hal & Stice are playing on at the time of the game. They find a doorless microwave oven, a large box of unlabelled cartridges and a fridge filled with decaying, stinking food
- Helen Steeply in the bleachers with DeLint and Poutrincourt. Steeply notes Poutricourt, a Quebecois Canadian, uses non-Quebecois French at times & makes a note to investigate. Steeply also wonders whether DeLint understands French and is eavesdropping on her conversation with Poutrincourt

14 Nov YDAU
- Matty Pemulis, 23, prostitute, sits in the Man O'War Grille and remembers being sodomized by his Da while his little brother Michael is in the room. It started when he was 10.

11 Nov YDAU
- Hal & DeLint in Shtitt's office re: what went wrong in the match between Hal & Stice
- Hal in Viewing Room #6 watching Himself's films but he does not watch 2 cartridges of Himself being interviewed

14 Nov YDAU
- Poor Tony wakes in the ambulance after his seizure, is treated in Cambridge City Hospital and released. Heads to Antitoi Entertainment in hopes of some "pharmacological credit". Passes by the Man O'War Grille, which is only a block or two from Antitoi Entertainment
- Geoffrey Day notes the Ennis House male resident's names for their penises. He misses Lenz, who has been discharged.
- Hal feels dead inside (anhedonia....simple melancholy). He feels nothing except loneliness.
- Kate Gompert reflects on clinical depression (the Great White Shark of Pain).

[Petra]

Is the doorless microwave found in the tunnel, the microwave James used to kill himself, do you think?

Why would the WYYY Engineer be kidnapped? He's been such a small character in this story. Apparently...he's a bigger fish than I thought he was.

Poor Matty & Michael Pemulis!

I'm beginning to wish I knew more about Hamlet.
There are references of ghostly happenings (the inanimate objects moving to inappropriate places.....maybe the doorless microwave in the tunnel is one of them? Or how would it get there so long after James' death (if it's the one he used to kill himself)? Shakespeare likes ghosts. Are there ghosts in Hamlet?
In Marlon's letter to Helen, there are references of Avril being rather odd about her mothering...kind of possessive and cloying. Hamlet is about a son and his mother, isn't it?
I'm not sure if it really matters whether Hamlet is understood or known but there are niggling little things that are mentioned that I wonder about.

Anyways.....the plot thickens. As I mentioned above, I get the feeling that we're being set up for things about to happen. Next week's section should be interesting. :D

[Amy]

Yes, there is a ghost in Hamlet - Hamlet's father (the king) is a ghost. He was murdered by Hamlet's uncle so that the uncle could marry the mother and become King.

As I recall, Hamlet exposes the deed through the use of a play where he constructs a similar plot to his father's murder.

Anyone else remember more?

[Irene]

I thought the description of depression by Kate Gompert was very insightful and powerful. The description of the couple who loved and sustained each other through his debilitating depression was amazing.

Can't figure out what is going on with Helen Steepley wanting to interview Hal and profile Orin. We don't know much about Orin, yet he seems to be in some sort of hot water. I keep thinking of that sinister guy at the hotel room door from last week's section.

I'm not surprised that Don is sexually attracted to Joelle, everyone seems to have a thing for her: James, Orin, etc.

[Rebecca]

I again really have loved this section but the Matty section was SO Disturbing to me. Funny parts too. The powdered milk. Did anyone grow up having to drink it? I would have been traumatized for sure since I don't like milk so much. Skim milk with brown crayon melted into it. I have noticed DW likes to use the phrase post prandial a lot. A lot seems to happen after meals in Enet house and in our society in general. Loved the MASH section I never did like that show and I can rme ber it being always on and the theme song to this days annoys me. I also liked the violin and dark billowing descriptions.

Pressure such as one could not imagine, now that to maintain you must win.
Now that winning is the expected. And all alone, in the hotels and the airplanes, with any other player you could speak to of the pressure to exists
wanting to beat you, wanting to be exist above and not below. Or the others, wanting from you, and only so long as you play with abandon, winning.

Irene I was getting the sense that Hal was in the background and she really wanted to know Orin. Somehow I got the impression that he and Orin had an attraction or encounter from earlier but I don't remember exactly.

Hence the suicides. The burn-out. The drugs, the self-indulging, the spoilage.

Is this might be for Hal and DW too?

Another side to Orin was shown to me. It kind of burst my bubble about him.

I am interested in why Hal didn't want to view the interview tapes? I wonder if he is afraid of knowing more about James.

So it's Mrs P fault that Matty was getting sodimized? Hmmm?

[LauraT]

Rebecca wrote: "I again really have loved this section but the Matty section was SO Disturbing to me. Funny parts too. The powdered milk. Did anyone grow up having to drink it? I would have been traumatized for su..."

Kids usually have it, no more!

[Petra]

Irene, the answer is in this week's reading. Things are reallys starting to happen now.

I used to use powdered milk in my coffee only because I had no place to store fresh milk at work. There was only one brand that would completely dissolve and, in coffee, it worked okay but I'd never drink a glass of it (and I prefer fresh milk over powdered even in coffee....but circumstances at that time, you know).

I was reading an interview of Mary Karr, a former girlfriend of DFW. The interview is about her new (at the time of the interview) book (2010) called Lit but it touches on a few ideas that I thought DFW may have gotten from or through his time with her.

She became a devout Catholic after her time with DFW and they did speak of her conversion. Here are some of quotes of her conversion & beliefs in faith:

"So how do I actually render my spiritual experience, which to me was very real, and was a huge change from the zero belief to - you know, the cynicism into awe"
"...faith has only revealed itself to me through practice."
"You don't have to believe anything to practice. And so Iwould recommend any meditation practice in any kind of community. Otherwise for me, I'm going to sit around and make up rules that are convenient to my disposition. Left without a community, I can manufacture all kinds of rationales for my own behaviour."

This seems very much like the NA/CA/AA beliefs throughout IJ.
DFW himself was an alcoholic so maybe he got the beliefs from his time in rehab but maybe Mary Karr, a person he cared for at some level, helped solidy these thoughts for him.

Of DFW, she aays:
"I can also imagine him in his intellectual arrogance, which was profound - very profound - thinking "Oh, I'll just go off these medications that have kept me from blowing my f****** brains out for twenty plus years." "
"A lot of the darkness in the books (her books) is David."

[Irene]

I read Lit a couple of years ago and really enjoyed it. I don't recall DFW being referenced in it. Is my old-age brain simply slipping or was her relationship with DFW after the book?

[Petra]

From the interview, I got the impression it was before the book was written.
She doesn't specifically mention that she named DFW in the book, just that reference to the darkness in the books being him.
How did you enjoy the book, Irene? I was thinking of seeing if the library had her books.

[Irene]

I thought it was an honest, sometimes rather self-depricatingly humorous look at alcoholism and recovery. I did enjoy it. I thought of reading more of her books, but just never have gotten around to it.

[Petra]

Howling fantods! A lot happens in this section!

Summary pages 698-808

14 Nov YDAU
- on their way home from their NA Meeting, Ruth Van Cleve & Kate Gompert are followed by Poor Tony
- Jim Troeltsch in his room
- Michael Pemulis, in the hallway of Subdorm B, moves a ceiling tile
- Lyle in unlit Weight Room, praying or talking with someone not there
- Schitt & Mario going for ice cream
- Avril, chain smoking, calls a Journalistic business in East Tucson, AZ
- Hal, in Viewing Rm #6, is joined by other ETAs. They watch James' film Bitch Sister: One Tough Nun (BS:OTN). Joelle visits Don in the hospital before her CA Meeting. At the meeting, for the first time, Joelle feels sure she wants to keep straight & considers showing someone her face.
- back to Viewing Rm #6, where the group watches the end of BS:OTN
- Poor Tony snatches the purses of Ruth & Kate. Kate is knocked into a lamp post; Ruth gives chase

14 Nov YDAU
- paranoid Randy Lenz "hiding in public plain sight" follows 2 Asian ladies with shopping bags wants to pull off a snatch-and-sprint
- the wheelchair assassins are still at Antitoi Entertainent looking for the Entertainment

14 Nov YDAU
- Poor Tony heads for Antonoi Entertainent with Ruth close behind him
- the AFR find the Entertainment. Both AFR and Steeply are following Orin in a belief that he either has knowledge or is in possession of a duplicate copy
- Fortier (AFR) has prosthetic legs but he rarely uses them

14 Nov YDAU
- Joelle has a nightmare about her teeth
- The found tape is a copy; not the original. James' colleagues & family are under surveillance; spies are in Enfield; AFR know Joelle worked at WYYY. The kidnapped Engineer was tortured. The AFR start checking Rehab Centres for Joelle. Antitoi brothers' bodies are transported North. The Engineer is shown the Entertainment twice (gratis), then has to start paying to view it again. AFR will need new test subjects. Fortier dreams of power.
- Lenz robs the Asian ladies of their 2 shopping bags. Runs up the streets looking for a private, lit alley to sort through the loot.

14 Nov YDAU
- Maranthe, undercover, gets interviewed at Ennis House for rehab placement. Story of how he lost his legs
- Joelle cleans her room at Ennis House and thinks of Orin, his parents and her own personal Daddy and her first Thanksgiving dinner with the Incandenza family
- more on Maranthe's interview for admission to Ennis House. In the office, he sees tapes with the smiley face embossed on them, makes plans to investigate further and he finds out Joelle is in Ennis House.
- Joelle continues cleaning
- Maranthe contemplates which side (AFR or Steeply's USOUS) to give his information to. Learns that the tapes will be previewed that night and that they originally came from ETA

11 Nov YDAU
- Mario and the Moms: how can you tell if someone is sad?
- Hal & Mario: how to tell when someone is lying?
- Remy (drunk or faking it) tries to convince a drunk Katharine into watching the Samizdat
- Hal & Mario: Hal worries about letting down family & friends due to his drug withdrawal; wonders whether he should use something stronger than Hope to keep the secret. Mario thinks that Hal's being able to talk about his problems is the help Hal needs to solve his problems

17 Nov YDAU
- Hal drops by Ennet House asking for a schedule of Meetings around Boston
- ETA male Locker Room
- under interrogation, Molly Notkin answers the USOUS operatives questions:
1. about IJ 5 and 6
2. Madame Psychosis' relationship with James
3. Orin, Madame Psychosis' guilt about asking James to stop drinking
4. Thanksgiving at Joille's parents' home (the acid incident)
- Pemulis is ratted out
- Hal goes to what he thinks is a NA Meeting; finds out he's mistaken

[Petra]

I loved the math that Pemulis inserted into the announcements:
17 goes into 56 a lot more than 3.2941 times. LOL!


.....we're close to the end of the book....only 4 pages of footnotes left! LOL!

[LauraT]

Yes!

[Irene]

Death by climbing limb by limb into a garbage disposal? I am not sure if I should hurl or laugh.

[Petra]

It's almost as if DFW had a thing against Thanksgiving, isn't it? Both Orin & Joelle meet the "other" family on Thanksgiving and both scenarios are odd.

Thing about reading IJ: reader's will never again say that their families are dysfunctional. :D

Thoughts on DFW's use of footnotes 324 & 326? These weren't footnotes but segments of the story. Why put them in as footnotes, do you think? Those who aren't reading the footnotes will miss important plot info. Could this be his angle?

ETA: do you think Kate will get back into Ennis House now that she's drunk? Her habit was marijuana, wasn't it? Would drunkenness count as a boot out if alcohol is not your normal abuse substance?

[Sheila , Supporting Chick]

So glad we are on the home stretch!

[Petra]

As much as I'm enjoying this book, so am I, Sheila.
It's a huge time commitment. I hadn't expected that when we started. I've read 1000-page books in way less time than this one is taking.
I don't regret the time taken. It's a wonderful book with a good story but I'll be glad to move on to something "fluffier" (anything will seem "fluffy" after this one. :D)

[Irene]

DFW has an anti-Thanksgiving thing. He also has a thing about sexually dysfunctional parents: Mr. Pemulis raping Matty, Joelle's father infantilizing her to prevent him from raping her, Avril playing football player and sexy cheerleader with John Wayne, James's belief that there was only a limited number of irrections in the universe and he did not deserve them, etc. What was going on in DFW's house growing up?

[Petra]

So true, Irene. As well there's the implication in the footnotes that Avril diddled with Orin, plus that section awhile back that parodied Lolita.

I have a copy of DFW's biography and hope to read it soon. Maybe it would shed some light on the matter.

[Irene]

This book is making me more interested in the author than any book I can recall reading.

[LauraT]

I think I need a break after this one!!!

[Irene]

What was DFW ridiculing with the bearded men and the teddy bears? I can't imagine it is essential to the plot, so it must be a poke in the eye of some cultural phenomenon.

[Rebecca]

Behind due to a sick child and dad who had surgery. I hope to finish up in the next few weeks.

[Amy]

I'd like to read his biography, also - then I'd love to discuss with a group who has read IJ. Maybe we can set up a read date and side discussion thread somewhere on here?

[Petra]

I was ahead in this week's reading until struck down with an awful head cold. I find I can't concentrate on DFW's writing at the moment. I am starting to feel better, though, so another day or two and I'll be back at it.
I also plan on finishing within a week or so.

Amy, I'd like to read the biography with you. Did you have a start date in mind? I'm not sure if I'd want to jump right into it but might be convinced, if the argument is strong? :D

[Petra]

LauraT wrote: "I think I need a break after this one!!!"

I completely understand, Laura. I think a few light and fluffy books are in order for all finishers of IJ. :D

[Irene]

This is the first week I finished the assignment ahead of time, finished yesterday. It was terrifically boring. Nothing happened.

[Amy]

I totally understand! I'd like a few weeks to recover from this before reading the biography - I am also working on meeting a few other deadlines. I'm thinking that I would have the biography read by the end of May. Maybe we could set up a June discussion?

[Rebecca]

Keeping up with the cartridge is making my head dizzy. I think DW thinks a lot of his work. Losing fingers to view it. WOW!!

Petra I hope your feeling better. I am coughing with chills and fever. I can't seem to control my body aches. My daughter is sick too and I think she gave it to me because I was run down this week taking care of my dad after his surgery and her, plus work.

[Petra]

Thanks, Rebecca. My head is clearing and I'm feeling more like myself. I'm still tired a lot, which is beginning to annoy me because I'm starting to want to do things again but can't. So....I guess I'm getting better. :D
I hope you start feeling better soon. It sounds a lot like what I've got.

Yes, the finger torture was awful, as well as Lenz using other people's fingers to view it. Man.....that guy is such a piece of work. He wants things but doesn't want to pay for them himself.
I felt bad for the Engineer. He really did not deserve the finger torture or anything else that happened to him. He's just a guy who worked with Madame Psychosis. I mean, something like this could theoretically happen to any of us who just got hired and dutifully go to work to do their job. It's an awful thought.

Amy, a June discussion on the biography sounds like a reasonable plan. I'd be game to give that a try.

My head seems clearer today so I plan on trying IJ again. I was almost finished this week's section so, with luck, I'll finish today and get the summary up.

[Petra]

Irene wrote: "This is the first week I finished the assignment ahead of time, finished yesterday. It was terrifically boring. Nothing happened."

Not even the section with the wraith? I'm looking forward to seeing how the wraith (James) works into the story. This part made me think that my suspicions that James may have been murdered are possible.

[Sheila , Supporting Chick]

I am just really happy that the end is in sight! :o)

[Irene]

Petra, I can't access your hidden text because I don't use a mouse, curious about your suspicions.

[Stacie]

I really enjoyed that section with the wraith. Anything that describes what goes on in Don G's head completely fascinates me. I am also curious to see if the wraith works into the remaining story - though there is not much story left at this point!

In general, the book continues to amaze and gross me out at the same time. I'm a little sad that in a few more days I'll be done with it!

[Petra]

Stacie, wouldn't the wraith be a real ghost? Don doesn't know James or James' family; therefore, the wraith is really James' ghost. At least, that's how I read it. James is trying to save his family....or Hal (maybe by saving Hal, he saves his other sons). I think the wraith will be back.

I haven't been grossed out yet (except by Lenz....he's a creep). I'm sad, too, to leave these characters behind soon. On the other hand, I'll be glad to finish the book. It's been a long-term time commitment.

[Stacie]

Agreed Petra, I do think you're right. (I just referred to "inside Don's head" because that part of the story was written from Don's perspective, and I love the way DFW has been writing Don's character the whole way along.)

On page 17, waaaaaaaay back in the first week's reading, there is one of those ever-so-brief and almost-hidden-because-it's-buried-in-a-seemingly-irrelevant-storyline references to a connection between Don and Hal. ("John N.R. Wayne...standing watching in a mask as Donald Gately and I dig up my father's head.") So, more on that must be coming in the last part of the book. At least, I hope so!

[Irene]

I hate not being able to see these hidden texts. Now I am curious about that early reference to the connection.