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Infinite Jest
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Infinite Jest - Chunky- Discussion thread
Summary: (pgs 299-379) 14 Nov YDAU
- Poor Tony no longer dresses as a woman; not since the heart-in-purse incident. He’s hiding from Emil, who has disappeared since July 29
- for a while, lives in a new, unused, apple-green garbage dumpster that people decline to use or come near
- too afraid to inject after incident with drano heroin, too afraid to trust drug supplied to him; goes into withdrawal in a library toilet stall. Incredible description of withdrawal.
- Poor Tony seizures on the GrayLine.
”O” 7 Nov YDAU
- Hal takes a class in Quebec & Separatism
- the birth of Mario
- how the Incandenza family got so rich
- Mario & Himself were inseparable; Orin resents Mario; Hal idealizes Mario
- Mario got Hal his first OED
- Avril insisted that Mario room with Hal at ETA
- a member of UHID visits Mario; Hal sends him away
30 April/1 May YDAU
- Maranthe & Steeply: more talk about causes bigger than self; talk about freedom of choice & learning to choose wisely.
8 Nov YDAU – Interdependence Day – Gaudeamus Igutur
- ”O” Eschaton game
Youtube clip of the Eschaton game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpfK7...
8 Nov YDAU – Interdependence Day – Gaudeamus Igutur
- AA meeting
- thoughts on the trite slogans of AA, not believing them, acting as if one does believe them and finally believing the slogans
- surprise that system works
- “G” in “group” is capitalized to emphasize that the Group is bigger than the self
- references that being addicted is like living in a cage.
- Lady Liberty holds the current year’s product in her outreached hand every year
- depreciation of AA program & excuses for one’s addiction are frowned upon; one must face oneself & take responsibility for self
30 Apr/1 May YDAU
- “Man Who Thought He Was Made Of Glass” (filmed in the Year of the Whopper): movie is dissed by critics. A depressed James talks with Lyle and Found Drama is born. Only Mario and Joelle know that Found Drama & anticonfluentialism are born after talk with Lyle.
- another AA story; one of accepting responsibility of one's addiction.
- when James drank with Lyle, he told his sorrows & woes while Mario was present.
DFW had a real knack for being able to describe deep psychological and physical pain. The description of Kate Gompert's depression and Poor Tony's withdrawal is horrifying and yet seems to bring out the reality of these situations.
I hope I'm not saying anything insensitive here (I've been lucky enough not to have gone through either of these two situations). I just found his descriptions to be gut-wrenching and painful, as if we are being told how hard people in these situations have to fight to keep their existence & sanity.
Mod
The description of Kate Gompert's depression and Poor Tony's withdrawal is horrifying and yet seems to bring out the reality of these situations..."
This is one thing that is bothering me a bit about this book, since DFW committed suicide and had depression problems. It sometimes feels like he is talking about his own experiences, and it almost feels like we are watching his own road leading up to him taking his own life. Makes me sad, because the man obviously had talent with the written word. :o(
I agree - he had great talent with the written word. I purchased a copy of a speech he gave called "This is Water." It's beautifully written and encourages people not to overlook the things that are right in front of them. I wish he were still writing.
Mod
It seems as if creative genious is often accompanied by severe psychological pain. I wonder why that is.
I saw these a long time ago and just remembered while reading the "Gaudeamus Igutur" chapter. For those worried about spoilers or long lectures, this is simply a music video for the music Calamity Song, by The Decemberists.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpfK7...
There is a nice analysis of the video in the context of the book here - especially relating characters and explaining Eschaton:
http://viz.dwrl.utexas.edu/content/ch...
And here is a little bit more about how they actually decided to adapt a chapter of Infinite Jest into a music video.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/art...
I guess this is probably the closest we'll ever get to a film adaptation of IJ, but it is pretty cool.
And I agree with the complexities of reading IJ and wondering how it relates to the life of DFW and his subsequent suicide.I was reading about it and stumbled upon this excert from his biography, Every Love Story is a Ghost Story: A Life of David Foster Wallace:
"At the end of 1989, David Foster Wallace was admitted to McLean Hospital, the psychiatric hospital associated with Harvard University, for substance addiction. He was twenty-seven years old and increasingly desperate for help. He had already experienced literary fame with his college novel, “The Broom of the System,” and sunk into obscurity with his postmodern short-story cabinet of wonders, “Girl with Curious Hair” (twenty-two hundred copies sold in hardcover). His most recent stop, as a graduate student in philosophy at Harvard, had lasted only a few weeks. His private life was hardly less uneven. He had attempted suicide the year before, in his family home, and had also gone from being a marijuana addict to an alcoholic, mostly drinking alone and in front of the television. Most dreadfully, he felt that he could no longer write well. He was unsure whether the problem was lack of focus, lack of material, or a lack of ambition. Granada House was to be the improbable solution to this problem, altering his approach to his work and putting him on the road to producing, in remarkably short order, his masterpiece, “Infinite Jest"."
You can read more here, but I guess it is safe to say that Infinite Jest's many different stories do draw from DFW own experiences. Be it with the obvious parallels with the Ennet House but also with the kids at the Tennis Academy and their own experimentation.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs...
Julia, I posted the Calamity Song in the summary, too. I think it's a great clip. It really brought that chapter together. :DAs I'm reading, I keep thinking how sad it was that DFW committed suicide. There are sentences throughout that just punch me in the gut because they seem to point a finger back at him. I wonder if he was aware of that when he wrote the sentences (or this book).
LOL, my iPad app doesn't show the spoiler tags, Petra! But you can never have enough of that clip. xDI was having this conversation with a friend of mine a few days ago. He is a Literature Major and was explaining to me how some people believe that works of art should be evaluated as something that exists independently of the author's history. For me, though, getting to know the mind behind the novel actually helps to understand - or at least, create a bigger picture - of what he was writing about in the first place. And I think this actually becomes more relevant in a book such as IJ.
Yeah, I don't think one can separate IJ from DFW's suicide. It would be interesting to compare the thoughts of 2 reader's: one who knew, at the time of reading, of DFW's suicide and one who didn't know about it until after reading the book. I wonder if the two would view the book differently?
How's everyone doing this week? I've had a super busy week and haven't gotten much reading done. Our next update (pages 380-508) will be next weekend (Feb 9th).
I'd be interested in your thoughts about the Statue of Liberty being used as an advertising platform. As a non-USA resident, I've always though of the Statue as a symbol of freedom for all people. Not meaning to take away from the States; she seems a majestic figure for all mankind.
I found the idea of using her to advertise the year's sponsor degrading to the idea of freedom and strength/personal power.
That this scene is stuck in the middle of the chapter on AA meetings, where the members have lost their freedom (in so many ways) might be significant? Is/Would DFW be saying that society is imprisoned by advertising/consumerism, just as addicts are imprisoned by their addictions? There's a lot of talk of cages in this section.
Petra so by the end of next week we should be on 508? I am pacing myself so it will be around 40 pages for me which I think is doable for me to get back in the discussion.
Yes, by Feb 9th we should be at page 508. That's about half way through the book. We're doing great!I think I'm on-track, too. Some of those longer footnotes throw me off but there hasn't been a long one for awhile.
Was it Footnote 80 that was 16 1/2 pages long! OY! That one slowed me down. It was interesting and had loads of information but I wasn't expecting that length. :D
Someone said Yawn to the tennis match. Boring.
I wonder how many of you have played before. I had tennis classes for a while when I was in high school and, even if I haven't played in over four years I love the game. I Think you do appreciate the tennis scenes more if you know the game...And I think 508 by February 9th is doable. I look forward to rejoining the discussion!
Rebecca wrote: "Someone said Yawn to the tennis match. Boring."Agreed! Can't
figure the point of the details about the tenis games. Have never played.
I played for my junior high team for two years. I followed Andre Agassi from his breakout rebel denim short days to the end of his tennis career. I have been follwing tennis since then. I did however really enjoy the Tennis and the feral prodigy chapter. I could connect with the descriptions of th court,tennis balls, Dunlop, racket. I am enjoying getting back into this again for sure. Wild and crazy but very intresting. It's sad we lost his gift to suicide.
I played tennis through high school and loved it. Although I can appreciate a lot of the tennis in the book, I do find it is intense and my eyes glaze over a bit. I'm at a section that is talking about the history of advertising (as it relates to this book) and that too is interesting but intense, causing my eyes to occasionally glaze over.....
DFW believes in details, that's for sure. Every nuance of something matters to him.
Petra wrote: "I played tennis through high school and loved it. Although I can appreciate a lot of the tennis in the book, I do find it is intense and my eyes glaze over a bit. I'm at a section that is talking ..."
I don't particularly like sport in general and tennis in particular, but I find it not too much in this particular novel!
I appreciate the catch-up week because I am finally caught up. I thought the description of the way AA subtly worked to keep members sober, about the way one gradually changes in AA, just amazing. I wondered if DFW was writing this from personal experience. On the other hand, I could not figure out the point of the long description of that war game the kids were playing.
Irene wrote: "I appreciate the catch-up week because I am finally caught up. I thought the description of the way AA subtly worked to keep members sober, about the way one gradually changes in AA, just amazing...."I agree - the details are incredible. I think I read somewhere that he interviewed people in AA in Boston.
Laura, I just read the part about the tennis drills last night and found them to be visually amazing. I was picturing the kids running around the various courts doing the drills. These are very talented kids. Irene, if I hadn't been told that that chapter is somehow pivotal to what's to come, I would have just seen the game as a comical chapter.
But, since I was told that it was a pivotal chapter, I've thought about what it may mean. The only thing I've come up with is that one event (the girl being hit by the tennis ball) caused utter chaos and injury. So, maybe, there will be one event coming up that involves all these people we're getting to know and causes the same sort of utter chaos and injury? We already know that something happens to Hal.
On the other hand, that seems like a pretty simplistic guess. DFW is deeper than that.
I have never heard anything about this book or any of the elements, except what has been said in this thread, But, I also keep thinking that somehow all these elements have to come together. Iam appreciating that each section is getting longer. In the earlier part of this book, the rapid changing of focus was very disorienting. But, I am wondering how much of these sections are pointless. For example, I thought that accident report of the brick layer crushed as his pully type lift kept swinging him up and down the side of the work site incredibly funny, but does this have anything to do with anything? Or, that depressed girl being interviewed by the resident in the psych ward, does she return? There have been so many really short sections that we have never returned to. I just read about the final film project where Mario and his father film the audience watching themselves on screen and the pointlessness of the project, but how the critics tried to make something significant out of the experience and I wonder if this book is not somehow a similar joke on the readers, especially the literary critics making something significant out of its disconnected pointlessness. I really hope I am wrong and it makes sense at some point.
Irene, both of those people (the guy who wrote the letter and the depressed girl) are at Ennis House. I forget their names but something like D. Dooley and Kate Gompson? The whole project of the people watching themselves seems to be a spoof on entertainment. I think many of James' films are him thumbing his nose at society and what it finds important and/or significant.
Petra wrote: "Laura, I just read the part about the tennis drills last night and found them to be visually amazing. I was picturing the kids running around the various courts doing the drills. These are very tal..."I read it yesterday as well Petra, and I was wondering if it was really like this a coaching in tennis: it's a sport I really don't know!
I wondered that, too, Laura. It seems pretty intense but would certainly teach speed, dexterity and aim.Irene, just after the drills (around page 460-ish), the WCB letter writer is mentioned again. He is definitely in Ennis House.
All of our "random" characters are meeting at Ennis House. There's Gately (the house robber who accidently killed a man), Kate (the depressed girl), Bruce (the high school kid who fell in love with the girl), Joelle (Madame Psychosis), yrstruly (Emil Minty), etc.
Of those, Joelle ties these characters to the Tennis Academy, just up the hill, through her association with Orin & James.
I don't know if the two sites will meet up but suspect that they will at some point. DFW is perhaps setting us up.
I've got about 40 pages to go for this week. I hope to be done by Saturday and ready to discuss things.
Petra, Thanks for that. I am around page 450 right now. I am really having a difficult time keeping characters straight. I Did not realize that Madame Psychosis of the radio show is Joelle (she is the one who overdosed in the bathroom of the PhD party correct?) And, I could not figure out why I should know Gateley. Thanks for making the connections for me. I did enjoy the Interdependence Day movie. It helped me understand some of the larger context. I want to know how Marathe and Steeply (am I spellling them correctly) are going to fit in since they have to get across the country.
DFW is messing with us and making it hard to keep up with the characters. Another confusing thing (for me) is that he sometimes refers to a character as "J.Smith" and then later as "John S." and later yet as "John Smith". He interchanges these whenever he feels like it. Then there are characters like Emil Minty where he doesn't tell us outright that this is yrstruly but gives us hints in the other stories that we have to piece together ourselves. I don't think I would have pieced this one together except that the name "Emil Minty" stuck in my head because of a character ("Minty Fresh") from another book I read. So when Poor Tony's story was told (when he had the seizure on the train), and he talked about Emil, I pieced together Emil=Emil Minty=yrstruly.
Yes, Joelle is the lady who overdosed in the bathroom. The apartment she overdosed in is the apartment she lived in with Orin when they had a relationship. Somehow, the relationship fell apart when she started a filming friendship with his dad, James. At this point, it seems (to me) that Orin ended or ruined the relationship because of jealousy over the friendship she had with his dad.
And, she is physically deformed in some way because she wears that veil. So, between his strong bond with Mario and his affair with the veiled lady, this guy has some sort of soft spot for people with significant deformities.
I'd forgotten that, Irene. Someone threw acid at her and Orin (it missed Orin). I'm not sure, though, whether James had an actual affair with Joelle. On the other hand, I'm also not sure that he didn't. :D
From what I gathered is they had the apperence of an affair in footnote 80. I went back and forth until the end of foot note 80 which I think clears it up.
So, only the appearance of an affair? Were they a couple without actually taking it to the level of sex?
I have no recollection of the acid incident. Were we told the reason for the attack? Did James and Joelle get together before or after the acid? Does the fact that James has a severely deformed son make him more sympathetic to Joelle being scarred?
Rebecca, thank you! I thought there was some reason for thinking they probably didn't have an affair but couldn't remember it. I reread footnote 80 last night. Yup....very clear. There was no affair. :DThere are so many tiny details in this book, it's easy to forget things.
Irene, I'll look up the reference to the acid incidence this evening when I get home. It was a small reference (twice, I think). I remember underlining it, so I should be able to find it easily.
Joelle was the PGOAT (prettiest girl of all time) when she met Orin and, therefore, when she met James. At some point (not sure when; maybe the reference will say), acid was flung, Orin ducked and it missed him, Joelle got it in the face.
I'm not sure if Joelle got it in the face because Orin ducked or if it would have hit them both if he hadn't ducked.
I wonder if the guilt of being missed by the acid (or ducking and causing her disfigurement) was one of the reasons for their split.
I'm not sure if James and Joelle were a (sexless) couple per se or just very good friends. They had a lot in common with their interest in photography and she played a leading role in many of his films.
They may both also have been pretty messed up, which gives them more in common...perhaps a deep understanding of each other's psyche. Her referring to her dad as "my personal daddy" is pretty weird and signifies some strange family situation (not incest, since she was a virgin when she met Orin) and James was odd, as we know, and came from a stressful, weird family situation.
At some point she referred to James as the "friend of her heart" (or some such thing), which seems to imply a deep, loyal friend and/or confidante.
I still don't quite get why he never did show her the tape. Is it more than because he died. I agree Petra it's a strange hook up being sexless I think.
Do you mean James not showing Joelle the tape of The Entertainment (aka "the Samizdat")? My guess would be that because everyone who watches that tape dies, he may have been protecting her.On the other hand, how did he film & edit the tape and not die? Was he immune to the need to be entertained?
The story line around society's need to be entertained (to the death) is interesting. I read the section on p-terminals last night and that explained The Entertainment's role (I think) and how the Wheelchair Assassins hope to ...take over/conquer/get their way(?)....through releasing it.
Mod
That is a really good question, Petra. I wonder if we will find out, or if it will just be another mystery of this book.
Julia wrote: "Well, since I was bookmarking my iPad copy, I decided to go ahead and post it here anyway. For the percentages, the first one represents the calculation for the physical copy (last page/1079) and t..."I m so far behind!
I'm spending my Friday night with Infinate Jest. How HOT is that?
I agree with Petra - I think James may have been protecting Joelle by not showing her the tape.The more I read this book the more I see little pieces coming together. I can already tell that when I get to the end I'm going to want to go back and re-read it to see all the clues I missed the first time.
One thing I did figure out is that the little circles at the head of some chapters indicates a chapter heading. All the other titles underneath it that look like chapter headings are all sub-headings. All the sub headings are related via a theme, but I'm not fully sure what all of them are (yet).
As for the symbolism of the circle at the chapter headings, it may be intentionally abstract so that it represents several things. A tennis ball would be the most obvious answer, but there are also a few references to the moon in the book.
Regardless, I'm enjoying this book!
Meg wrote: "Julia wrote: "Well, since I was bookmarking my iPad copy, I decided to go ahead and post it here anyway. For the percentages, the first one represents the calculation for the physical copy (last pa..."Meg I wonder if switching to the kindle version would help. I think the small print is a hinderence.
I am using the kindle, I am just struggling
I'm keeping up so far, but I'm wondering how many of us are still struggling to keep up even with the extra week?
Irene wrote: "I have no recollection of the acid incident. Were we told the reason for the attack? Did James and Joelle get together before or after the acid? Does the fact that James has a severely deformed ..."I found one of the references on page 223:
"Jim's eldest, Orin - punter extraordinaire, dodger of flung acid extraordinaire - ......"
and, then on page225:
"....after the acid, after first Orin left and then Jim came and made her sit through that filmed apology-scene and then vanished...."
Kind of looks like Jim may have flung the acid, doesn't it?
I thought Joelle also said/thought something about the acid attack but I can't find it.
I would just like to reiterate how awesome Petra is as a discussion leader for finding these references!
Sheila wrote: "Petra wrote: "On the other hand, how did he film & edit the tape and not die? Was he immune to the need to be entertained? "That is a really good question, Petra. I wonder if we will find out, or..."
I think that maybe the answer to this question is in this week's section. I just got to it this morning.
There's some talk of finding a way to view the cassette without dying and the theory seems to be that James filmed it using some sort of holographic technology and it required special lenses to view it without succumbing to its fatal elements.
(James was buried with some of his lenses.........interesting connection, no??? :D)
Could the circles at the beginning of the chapters have something to do with the Entertainment? On page 483 it says that some cartridges are "stamped also with a circle and arc that resembled a disembodied smile". The circles in this book could be these circles rotated by 90degrees. DFW is heavily into math, so it's possible he's messing with us again.
That entire chapter about the AFR attach was amazing. At first my eyes were starting to glaze over (Gately's crazy driving) but then it got extremely interesting and a lot of the elements we've already ready read about start coming together.
It's a small world with very many intersecting events. Holy cow!
Amy wrote: "The more I read this book the more I see little pieces coming together. I can already tell that when I get to the end I'm going to want to go back and re-read it to see all the clues I missed the first time...."
This. I think rereading this book would be very interesting and enlightening. Which, again, makes me compare this book to Ulysses. I think rereading Ulysses would be interesting & enlightening, too. The "work" for the reader is done on the first reading in both of these books, so subsequent readings would be (possibly) more interesting and enlightening than the first time through.
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For those reading on a kindle, do you measure progress - as percentages or by one of those weird page numbering? I am reading part on my iPad and part on my physical ..."
I have a Kindle and mine show by percentage