In Defense of Sansa Stark?

[Annemarie]

Laura wrote:
"And the way he stares at my little Sansa at the castle is not creepy at all."

I was thinking that! "A man that loves my wife so much he actually crushes on my 13 year old that looks like her will absolutely help me overthrow a ruthless queen that he is able to work with. Yeah good plan!"

[Laura]

But the best Ned thought must be "Robert made me put it on paper. It's law now and everyone will respect it, including the queen I threatened to expose as an incestuous criminal." This is so sad, I feel bad for laughing!

Now back to Sansa... No matter how much you pile up facts comparing her naiveté with Ned's, the true remains that she was a sheltered child, while he was a grown man who knew that King's Landing was a nest of snakes (I think "nest of snakes" doesn't work in English... but you get the point).

[Ray]

The fact that Sansa was the only sibling who didn't realize Jon's awesomeness kind of turned me against her. And then she went and did all that other stupid stuff and suffered and everything so i'm wondering if she's suffered enough now.

...I'll decide after i see how her reunion with Jon goes. In the end, jon is the final judge for me. Jon is usually right xD

[Annemarie]

Ray wrote: "The fact that Sansa was the only sibling who didn't realize Jon's awesomeness kind of turned me against her. And then she went and did all that other stupid stuff and suffered and everything so i'm..."

I assumed she was cold to Jon as a nod to her loyalty to her mother. I have a really bad relationship with the mum over her coldness/hatred for a child that she should have loved like a stepson.

[Laura]

Well, it's my bedtime and I'm tired from a long day, so I'll just blurt it out like a brute: People who judge Sansa as harshly as they would do any adult and blame her for everything clearly don't remember their childhood and have no kids. People who think she didn't suffer enough shouldn't have kids or be around kids.

[Ray]

Laura wrote: "Well, it's my bedtime and I'm tired from a long day, so I'll just blurt it out like a brute: People who judge Sansa as harshly as they would do any adult and blame her for everything clearly don't ..."

We just compare her to everyone else in the story and she's found lacking lol.

[Annemarie]

Ray wrote: "Laura wrote: "Well, it's my bedtime and I'm tired from a long day, so I'll just blurt it out like a brute: People who judge Sansa as harshly as they would do any adult and blame her for everything ..."

I have faith that she might turn out interesting. I'm just hoping she grows a sense of vengeance and a keen love of her own skin. God knows, no one else in this universe is looking out for another person.

[Hannah]

Annemarie wrote: "Ray wrote: "The fact that Sansa was the only sibling who didn't realize Jon's awesomeness kind of turned me against her. And then she went and did all that other stupid stuff and suffered and every..."

So you hate Sansa because you're a Join fan? You don't think it's natural for Sansa to act the way she did out of loyalty to her mother? Do you expect her to love the very evidence that Ned cheated on her mom?

[Ray]

Hannah wrote: "Annemarie wrote: "Ray wrote: "The fact that Sansa was the only sibling who didn't realize Jon's awesomeness kind of turned me against her. And then she went and did all that other stupid stuff and ..."

The problem with Sansa is that she has other siblings, and those siblings collectively acted the right way while she's the only disillusioned one. It sets her apart and opens her for attack. When people talk about Sansa, they compare her to the other Starks and find her wanting.

Clinging to her rose-colored dreams while her family gets sacrificed one by one is pretty terrible. She had many chances to realize the truth and she refused every time. When her wolf died, and quite a few other times. So when she was finally totally and truly screwed, I didn't have much sympathy for her. In my eyes it was her own fault and she failed. It's not like Arya didn't try to tell her. It's not like Ned didn't try to explain. But she was blinded and deluded by her unrealistic dreams and became the butt of every joke. If she becomes stronger because of it, then great but she did fail at that time.

[Annemarie]

Hannah wrote: "Annemarie wrote: "Ray wrote: "The fact that Sansa was the only sibling who didn't realize Jon's awesomeness kind of turned me against her. And then she went and did all that other stupid stuff and ..."

Pretty certain I never said I hated Sansa. I'm just explaining to another poster that Sansa's distaste for Jon stemmed from her loyalty to her mother. Those were the words I used in my post.

[Matthew]

Laura wrote: "But the best Ned thought must be "Robert made me put it on paper. It's law now and everyone will respect it, including the queen I threatened to expose as an incestuous criminal." This is so sad, I..."

He may have known King's Landing was a nest of snakes, but that didn't make him prepared for it. And if he trusted that Robert's signature was all that was required, he never would have conspired with Baelish in the first place.

I would also like to go on record that Baelish's lurid obsession with Sansa was not yet revealed. In fact, it wasn't revealed until A Storm of Swords where he took her in and put the moves on her. Still feeling creeped out from that one!

[Laura]

Matthew wrote: "I would also like to go on record that Baelish's lurid obsession with Sansa was not yet revealed. In fact, it wasn't revealed until A Storm of Swords..."

Actually, that's wrong. The following quotes are from book one:

Varys was wringing his soft hands together, Grand Maester Pycelle kept his sleepy eyes on the papers in front of him, but she could feel Littlefinger staring. Something about the way the small man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on. Goose bumps pimpled her skin.

When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. […] His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock.

Sansa had no choice but to explain about heroes and monsters. The king’s councillor smiled. ”Well, those are not the reasons I’d have given but…” He had touched her cheek, his thumb lightly tracing the line of her cheekbone.

Sansa did not feel like telling all that to Jeyne, however; it made her uneasy just to think back on it.

[Matthew]

Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I would also like to go on record that Baelish's lurid obsession with Sansa was not yet revealed. In fact, it wasn't revealed until A Storm of Swords..."

Actually, that's wrong. Th..."

Okay, point taken. He didn't go full-pervert until ASOS, even though he was betraying signs of perviness early on. But was Ned aware of these little episodes of perversion? It looked like people were factoring this into why it was stupid of him to trust Baelish in the first place. I know, it was meant jokingly, but he did seem ignorant of this luridness to me at the time.

[Laura]

Well, the sordid environment of King's Landing is exactly why he left Robert reigning alone and went back to Winterfell. He wasn't made for the intrigues and getting his hands dirty with things that "had to be done" according to the ones in power. But that doesn't mean that he ignored what a bunch of cunning liars it was. Yes, it was a mistake to trust a man he barely knew, regardless (or perhaps especially because of) his history with his wife. He could have trusted his men only and used Littlefinger (or Varys, or whomever) only secondarily.

And yes, it was obviously a joke, but you know what Freud thought about jokes (wink). In any case, I think it makes no sense at all to justify Ned's mistakes and condemn Sansa's, who was a child raised like a little lady. I would justify a child being naive many times over an adult who had experience in these things.

[Jelen]

I didn't like Sansa when I started watching the series, but after reading her chapters in books she was much more likeable, I could see her side of the story much more clearly. She didn't betray Ned, well at least not on purpose, she was just too naive and not considering the consequences. And later when they killed Ned and she stayed in King's Landing and didn't try to escape, she was just being a normal human being, she was scared to death, the way she acted is the way 99% of people would act, everybody thinks they would be like Arya... Well, aren't we all smartasses when things happen to others?
I think Sansa seems like a stupid and negative character because we always compare her to Arya. Not everyone can be so brave. And you have to consider the way they were raised. Sansa was the first female child in the family, they probably raised her to be a proper lady, whereas Arya as a younger daughter was allowed to be a little bit unconventional.
Anyhow, I like both Arya and Sansa and love the fact that they are so different.
I just love how none of the characters are one-dimensional, except Joffrey, he's just evil!

[Annemarie]

@Matthew - "full-pervert"! LOL! Love it!

[Matthew]

Annemarie wrote: "@Matthew - "full-pervert"! LOL! Love it!"

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week, remember to tip your servers :)

@Laura: Agree on all counts. Can't stand people pissing on Ned's grave thinking it's somehow helping his daughter. As for Freud, what DID he say about jokes? Let me think... Sometimes a joke is just a joke? There are no jokes? A joke is an Oedipal complex in hiding? Something related to parents having sex?

[Shirley]

I didn't exactly dislike Sansa when I first read the books, but I wasn't too keen on her character either. I didn't think I related to her. She seemed too 'girly,' which is when I stopped myself and asked, "Why do I see that as a bad thing?" Darn internalized misogyny!

Anyway, Sansa is now my queen and her characterization in the beginning of the series is appropriate and necessary for her arc in the story. Even if I didn't know about her growth, her character was realistic - she's a young girl and she looks up to her mother and wants to be a lady just like her. She was mean to Arya, but Arya was mean right back, just like you'd expect sisters to.

She wasn't dumb, she was young. I guess you can call her naive, but what child isn't? Even Arya was a bit naive.

I realize this topic was started years ago, but I just had to express my love for Sansa and help abolish the idea that 'being a girl/lady' is not dumb or horrible (contrary to Arya's opinion). You don't have to act like a man to be strong.

[Laura]

Shirley wrote: "I didn't exactly dislike Sansa when I first read the books, but I wasn't too keen on her character either. I didn't think I related to her. She seemed too 'girly,' which is when I stopped myself an..."

You are right on the spot. Most people cheer on Arya like the bad-ass warrior and claim Sansa is bratty, naive or even worse. The truth is that, in the first book, Arya is also bratty and naive. The way she knocks down the crown Prince and expects everyone to see things her way is clearly naive, regardless how noble her motives were. Also when she tells the guards that her father was the Hand and he would have their heads on spikes was a bit bratty.

That is normal children behavior. Sansa and Arya both were raised as highborn ladies of a man in power, Lord of Winterfell, so it's expectable that they were naive and a bit bratty. Their sisterly rivalries are also perfectly normal and I haven't read any moment when they're actually being mean to each other.

I agree with Shirley a big deal when she says that, for most people, to rule on the "unconventional" girl while despising the "girly" one is internalized misogyny, which becomes a strong reflection of our societies and how they judge women, when some people think that Sansa is weak or that she would have deserved to suffer more.

@Matthew: I believe he thought every joke we made had an amount of our true thoughts, but I can't remember exactly, it's been too long. Knowing Freud, yes, I would bet something about our parents and/or sex ;)

[Kerry]

Christie wrote: "I liked Arya better than Sansa, but I imagine that's because I can identify more with her. Sansa has grown up learning how to be a lady and has been living in an illusion that she would marry a han..."

Good comment. I agree. Up until Ned took over as The Hand, Arya was the dreamer playing swords. Sansa was the sensible noble female, a responsible oldest daughter prepared to marry to further the interest of House Stark. Dutiful but still a teen looking to have an identity separate from her parents. When the world flipped upside down, she came out on bottom.

[Mitali]

Shirley wrote: "I didn't exactly dislike Sansa when I first read the books, but I wasn't too keen on her character either. I didn't think I related to her. She seemed too 'girly,' which is when I stopped myself an..."

I agree so much with this post - you said exactly what I thought, but couldn't express!

After Ned's arrest, Sansa and Arya have both been brave and strong in their own ways, keeping with their own abilities. Arya has been living on the run, constantly beset by danger, and fighting and killing people - in other words, she's been displaying bravery of a typically masculine sort. Sansa, on the other hand, has had to live under the thumb of the Lannisters, who torture her physically and emotionally, and yet she managed to remain strong, and more to the point, remain alive. Her strengths are typically of the feminine kind, such as forbearance and patience.

Just imagine if Sansa and Arya's positions had been switched, i.e. if Sansa had managed to escape the Red Keep when Ned was arrested, and Arya had been captured by the Lannisters. Sansa probably would not have managed to survive on her own for long - but neither would Arya have survived being a captive of the Lannisters. She would have said or done something foolhardy like insulting Joffrey or trying to attack him, and he would haven't even given a second thought before ordering her execution. Sansa managed to survive in that situation because she knew when to keep her head down and her mouth shut. That takes courage too - to not strike back when you know your enemies are much more numerous and stronger than you. But people tend to dismiss that kind of courage because it doesn't involve waving swords or killing people.

[Matthew]

Mitali wrote: "Shirley wrote: "I didn't exactly dislike Sansa when I first read the books, but I wasn't too keen on her character either. I didn't think I related to her. She seemed too 'girly,' which is when I s..."

Well summed up. Though Sansa's situation is the one many would consider deplorable and degrading, her ability to survive and navigate it really does need to be acknowledged. It has not only tested her cunning, but shown great endurance. Arya, on the other hand, gets points for learning how to be hard and ruthless in the wild. Kind of seems unfair that we would respect one and not the other.