A Game of Thrones
discussion
In Defense of Sansa Stark?
True, Joffrey was the wild-card in that situation. But even without Joffrey's intervention, Ned would still have wound up dead, only a little later, less publicly, and less obviously at Lannister hands. Cersei would never have allowed Ned to wander around free, given the potentially explosive secret about her that he knew. She would have made a grand show of pardoning him and sending him off to the Wall, and then arranged for him to have a quiet little 'accident' during the long journey to the Wall.
Tara wrote: "Who knew the author planned 7 books? If I had known that I would have waited to read them all at once. I seriously thought there was only five. "LOL nobody knew. Not even GRR Martin. He first intended to have only THREE books but it kind of got out of control :-))
I don't hate Sansa. I think she just learned the right lessons for her station at exactly the wrong time in her kingdom's history.She was brought up to be a "proper lady," and she wanted desperately to please everyone around her: her mother, her tutors, her friends. Nothing in her life's experience up to Ned Stark's elevation to the King's Hand could have prepared her for the storm about to break over her world.
She's also not the brightest person in the world, but again, that's not something to hate. Everyone can't be a genius.
I haven't read past book 3 (and that was years ago, before Martin seemed to forget about the series), so all I remember is the exact point where her carefully-taught lessons started to fail her badly. That's about the point I started to just feel sorry for her.
For the self-reliant woman of power, look to Daenerys Targaryen.
Bill wrote: "For the self-reliant woman of power, look to Daenerys Targaryen."
As much as I love Daenerys, my heart is with Arya Stark. :)
As much as I love Daenerys, my heart is with Arya Stark. :)
I think Sansa's an interesting character. The trait that makes everyone hate her is a flaw shared by all the Starks. She thinks her life is a story. The narrative resists her at every turn, but all she wants to do is live in a romance tale. Her father has the same problem and it leads to his downfall. (view spoiler)
Jamesepowell wrote: "Bill wrote: "For the self-reliant woman of power, look to Daenerys Targaryen."I recommend that you read the fourth and fifth books."
Noooo... not until the publication date of the final book is announced. I put up with enough from Robert Jordan's procrastination and the LOOOOOONG hiatus between ASoIaF to fall into that trap again (as in, by the time the next book is out, I'll have absolutely forgotten books 1-5 and have to re-re-read them all).
Bill wrote: "as in, by the time the next book is out, I'll have absolutely forgotten books 1-5 and have to re-re-read them all"I feel you! I've already forgotten what happens in the first half of Dance with Dragons, never mind the first book!
I hear you all, guys. I'm hesitant to pick up A Clash of Kings (since I've only read the first) because I highly doubt that Martin will publish his last two books until probably a decade or more, and I'll have forgotten everything.... HURRY THE FUCK UP, MARTIN....
Jamesepowell wrote: "Elina wrote: "Bill wrote: "as in, by the time the next book is out, I'll have absolutely forgotten books 1-5 and have to re-re-read them all"I feel you! I've already forgotten what happens in the..."
I should do that too! People mentioned in other threads about Snow's current position, (which I won't reveal due to spoilers) and I'd totally forgotten about it because it was at the end of the first half of book 5! There are so many characters I just can't keep track of them all x_x
It was cruel after book 3 really........People waited a long time to find out what happens next and book 4 only showed the plight of half of the characters- not including fan favorites Tyrion, Jon Snow and Daenerys.And then, they waited SIX long years for book 5. So in a way, they had to wait from 1999 to 2011 to know the aftermath of A Storm of Swords.
I am on book 4 currently.....and I keep forgetting some characters- there are so many. And then some new character POV comes in and it pisses me off.As for Sansa in book one, I agree she is the Stark most difficult to like. Jon, Bran, Arya and Ned were written by Martin in a way that makes readers take to them more easily. Sansa does take her own time to grow on you, but eventually she will be the one who comes out the wisest and best suited to play the game.
After reading so many others' comments, I'm glad I just discovered this series this fall. I'm in the middle of book 3, and can understand if too much time had passed between publication of each, I would be totally lost too.I've already posted that I think Sansa is maturing. Yes, I agree that Arya is plucky and strong by nature, but Daenerys is the strongest, positive woman that I can see. There are other strong women, but they're not positive.
I actually like Sansa Stark, even though I liked Arya more. But Sansa is a girl that lives in the dream where princes and powerful families is like Gods, and adores them, because that is who she are. She thinks that because they are powerful, they are good people and so on.... That doesn't makes her weak, it makes her a child with a hope for everyone. And then she grows up and face the fact that everything aren't perfect.
Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the first book and a..."I agree. After reading the first two books, I looked ahead at reviews/comments for the next books and got a little discouraged-- these books are such tomes!! A lot of time invested for little satisfaction/closure. I am keeping up with the TV series-- I like to read the book before I see the TV show but I just couldn't get through the next book! Enter Audible... I listened to the 3rd book and it was like listening to a play!! I loved it!! I listen when I walk, run, long car trips, etc. I can't wait to get the 4th+ books on Audible too. It really makes a difference when you hear the story!
What I think everyone needs to remember about Sansa is that she is very young!(I cant remember her age off the top of my head!) She is told how beautiful she is and what a perfect queen she is going to be. I believe she had a little bit of stockholm syndrome (sp?).
Sansa isn't my favorite character and I find myself impatient when I read her story. However, I can objectively see that she starts out as any 13 year old girl throughout time: I want to be a princess with a handsome husband who loves me!Once that bubble is burst, I took her continued support of Joffrey to be a life-saving technique. She says it with conviction because her life could be in danger if Cersei suspects she doesn't believe that way.
(view spoiler)
[type < spoiler > then what you want to type, then < / spoiler > (without spaces) to end your spoiler](view spoiler)
The reason we don't like Sansa is that she is the most dangerously deluded character in the series. Her delusions about the world killed her father. But unlike a normal villain, she is not malicious, and in fact she is beautiful - but her inability to think through the consequences of her actions hurt her, her sister, her father, and Westeros. It is her thoughtless villainy that gets under our skins, because we don't quite know what to *do* with her. (And for creating this character, Martin is to be congratulated).(Sorry for not spoilerizing earlier)
(view spoiler)
Spoilers Josh, we're discussing Game of Thrones here, not the entire series...
Alex wrote: "Spoilers Josh, we're discussing Game of Thrones here, not the entire series..."Hard to remember where one book ends and another begins when you've read all that's been written. Sansa's story, like that of most of the Stark kids, is full of twists and turns. (view spoiler)
Yikes, Josh, glad I read the first three books already! I agree with you to an extent, though, although I don't think we can truly characterize Sansa as a "villian" except through result of her lack of action or that of being completely unaware of how her actions will effect others. (view spoiler)
Jocelyn wrote: "Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the fir..."Marina wrote: "I love Sansa and think she's a pretty great character. After reading a fair share of medieval historical fiction I can say with confidence that she is behaving like a true medieval noble young woma..."
Marina- I totally agree with you, I don't think Sansa is stupid at all. She is just behaving how she was taught a lady should behave.
Susan wrote: "What I think everyone needs to remember about Sansa is that she is very young!(I cant remember her age off the top of my head!)"She is 11 in the book, 13 in the TV series. I assume we're discussing the book, so I don't know why people keep referring to her as 13.
Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the first book and a..."I know exactly how you feel! I'm also pissed at him for the way he keeps making people suffer endlessly. Is it too much to ask for some resolution, a little happy ending here or there? And yet, I'm into book 5 and I find myself wondering what's happening in some other threads, knowing full well I'll have to wait til book six to find out!
Damn you, Martin! Why couldn't this have been a trilogy where the Starks won, the North was saved and Daenerys came back by book III? What's with all the cash-in again antics?
Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the fir..."I'm more worried that he'll die before he finishes :(
I'm new to the series. Is there a plan, like with the LOTR or Harry Potter, on a set number of books. Harry was finished in seven. Is that the goal?I've just started book 4, and am concerned about the new characters being introduced. Yes, it's interesting, but I want to know what's happened to the old ones. Especially in light of the cliff hangers book 3 left me with. Thanks!
(I've read 1-3)I blame Ned and Cat for Sansa's difficulties. Even with everything they had seen they got too comfortable being so far away from the court and didn't bother to train/warn their children. If Arya was in Sansa's place she would never survive the court and Sansa wouldn't survive where Arya went. Ned himself was naive as well and she is her father's daughter. I like Sansa she is young and she keeps hoping for better but she also is learning and adaptable. (without revealing to much) Even later it shows that Cat also still holds on to naivete and loses.
Nadine wrote: "I'm new to the series. Is there a plan, like with the LOTR or Harry Potter, on a set number of books. Harry was finished in seven. Is that the goal?I've just started book 4, and am concerned a..."
The original goal was three, then it grew to five, now he think it's seven, but who knows by the time he finishes with those two.
Alana wrote: "Nadine wrote: "I'm new to the series. Is there a plan, like with the LOTR or Harry Potter, on a set number of books. Harry was finished in seven. Is that the goal?I've just started book 4, and..."
If only he didn't constantly delve into side stories in the way he has! I wondered for so long what the point of most of the stories in book 4 were, aside from fleshing out side plots he'd started. It wasn't until the end that it even became clear.
Thanks, Matthew and Alana.
Sansa is very stupid IMO, not just in a sweet/helpless way but in general. ACOK SPOILER: She actually thought the Queen would let her go once Joffrey decides to marry Marge. Lol like being betrothed was the only reason they were holding her there in Kings Landing. In her defense, people got mad at her for reporting her fathers plans to the Queen in GOT but she really did not know any better. She probably should have learned something about the Queens qualities after having Lady killed but she didn't. She was the last Starks to finally wake up and realize the Queen is evil and mean.
Totally not deserved. She is a very strong character for a young girl her age so little experienced with the world. She is one of my personal favorites.Btw I love Arya equally. Why do people always think they have to pick sides with the sisters, they're different but true Starks in their own right.
"Why do people always think they have to pick sides with the sisters"Hahaa.. I never thought of that until you mentioned it but you're right, they do do that. I love them both. I really like Sansa alot. But I disagree some. I thought she was a little dumb, or better yet; naïve in the way she saw the world. Arya was even younger and what that girl has to go through, THAT is tough. And just because Sansa made it out of Kings landing alive doesn't make her strong. She was scared and helpless the whole way through it & It would have took tripping over her own feet and landing on a knife not to make it out of that alive.
Justice wrote: ""Why do people always think they have to pick sides with the sisters"Hahaa.. I never thought of that until you mentioned it but you're right, they do do that. I love them both. I really like Sansa..."
It just is my expereince. They either love Arya and hate Sansa or vice versa. I love both.
Jocelyn wrote: "Okay, I've only read the first book, so if you're going to discuss plot points in the next ones, either please don't say them or hide them under spoiler tags.So I've noticed that even fans of thi..."
Yeah i agree that she learns, but the most annoying thing about her is that she was so delusional in the beginning ( She kinda changes later :) ). Even though her mother, father and brother are such practical people, she lived in this dream like world of hers and by the time she woke up Bam! her father's dead
Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the first book and a..."Haha yes
one of the most famous criticisms of the series is "Where are the dragons?"
I believe that the focus of the series is not dragons and mysticism but actually politics and deception
I am sure G.R.R Martin has a grand finale in store for us
Srungeer Simha wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Okay, I've only read the first book, so if you're going to discuss plot points in the next ones, either please don't say them or hide them under spoiler tags.So I've noticed that..."
People criticize Sansa for "living in a dream world" but in some way is that so bad? She still holds on to her ideals and beliefs there is good in the world. I think this is a sign of amazing strength! No matter what she never becomes cynical of the world despite the cruelty she witnesses. Even after marrying Tyrion she tries to see the beauty in him on their wedding night. She tries again and again to look for the good even in people she has every reason to hate. Sansa is a beautiful soul and probably one of the few truly virtuous characters in the entire series.
Hannah wrote: "Srungeer Simha wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Okay, I've only read the first book, so if you're going to discuss plot points in the next ones, either please don't say them or hide them under spoiler tags..."The problem with living in a dream world is when your loved ones get killed because of your actions, and your family destroyed. Cersei has said that Ned would have won if Sansa didn't come to her.
Srungeer Simha wrote: "Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the fir..."That's exactly right Srungeer. If you've read book 3 yet (A Storm of Swords) the dedication even says "for Phyllis, who made me put the dragons in"
So yeah, the story doesn't revolve around dragons but nontheless they play a pretty crucial part.
Matthew wrote: "The problem with living in a dream world is when your loved ones get killed because of your actions, and your family destroyed. Cersei has said that Ned would have won if Sansa didn't come to her."That's false. Ned had trusted Littlefinger, so even without Sansa, he would have lost. It's weird how people forget that.
Agreed. Matthew you make it sound as if Sansa's actions were the decisive factor in Ned's death. But all she did was tell Cersei that her father was planning to send her away from King's Landing. She already knew Ned was sniffing around, and when he confronted her, she knew exactly what he had found. What followed was a battle of who-could-recruit-whom and Cersei only won because Littlefinger wanted to see Ned die.
As a mother, I see Sansa as a daughter figure. The kind of daughter you worry about, a daughter who needs a lot of guidance and good advice. She is young, naive and romantic.....a combination of characteristics that create a great deal of vulnerability. Sansa is a lovely person and there is nothing wrong with her that won't be corrected as she matures and acquires life experience and wisdom.
I find it kind of funny that Sansa gets so much hate and blame for being naive and trusting Cersei. Eddard Stark was far more naive in underestimating Cersei and trusting Baelish, and doesn't have the defence of being a sheltered 11 year old.
Dorothy wrote: "I find it kind of funny that Sansa gets so much hate and blame for being naive and trusting Cersei. Eddard Stark was far more naive in underestimating Cersei and trusting Baelish, and doesn't have ..."IDR? Why does know one hate on Ned who was a grown man?!
Dorothy wrote: "I find it kind of funny that Sansa gets so much hate and blame for being naive and trusting Cersei. Eddard Stark was far more naive in underestimating Cersei and trusting Baelish, and doesn't have ..."Well for one, no one should be hating or blaming either of them, in my humble opinion. But in all fairness, Ned's only real mistake was in trusting Baelish, not underestimating Cersei. And he had plenty of reason to think he would back him up given his relationship to the Tullys. Also, Cersei's success in enlisting his help wasn't due to any skill on her part. It was due to Baelish's own secretive and ugly motives, which in this case was to have Catelyn all to himself.
Speaking of which, Sansa's fault was in telling Cersei that Ned wanted to send them away. It was also in trusting that Joffrey would be a good husband and that her dreams of a chivalrous, fairytale union would happen. These were acts of naivete and misplaced trust. And while I don't condone hating her for them, on balance, she was far more naive or trusting than Ned was.
Matthew wrote: "And while I don't condone hating her for them, on balance, she was far more naive or trusting than Ned was. "Sure she was. She was an 11 year-old child raised as a little highborn lady! What was Ned's excuse, that Baelish seemed kinda nice, for a dude with a major crush on his wife?
Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "And while I don't condone hating her for them, on balance, she was far more naive or trusting than Ned was. "Sure she was. She was an 11 year-old child raised as a little highborn..."
No, his excuse was that he knew Baelish from his and Catelyn's longtime affiliation. And he had helped them earlier by smuggling her into the city and hiding her so she could tell Ned about the assassination attempt on Bran. And it was Petyr who advised him of how to successfully mount the coup against Cersei.
In hindsight, it certainly seems like a bad decision, but Ned didn't have the benefit of that. Nor did he know that Baelish was already Cersei's man and had helped dispose of Jon Arryn. And as far as I know, he didn't know that Baelish still had a thing for Catelyn, at least not to the extent that he thought he could see himself with her if he just got rid of the competition.
Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "And while I don't condone hating her for them, on balance, she was far more naive or trusting than Ned was. "Sure she was. She was an 11 year-old child raised as a little highborn..."
LOL! I guess Ned's logic was "well this guy has great taste in women, can't be half bad." He was right, he's not half bad... unfortunately he's not half good either!
Annemarie wrote: "LOL! I guess Ned's logic was "well this guy has great taste in women, can't be half bad." He was right, he's not half bad... unfortunately he's not half good either!""If he truly loved her, he will help me succeed so that she can be happy. That's true love! And the way he stares at my little Sansa at the castle is not creepy at all."
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Seems we are diverting from Sansa to Ned, two characters who really cannot be compared. I would agree that Ned was too noble for his own good but I don't think anyone could have suspected that Joffrey would take things into his own hands.