Twilight
discussion
Is Stephenie a bad writer?
Haley wrote: "I hear a lot of people criticizing Stephenie's writing style (I don't know if they are talking about her grammar, her technique, her editing, or if Twilight is just a stupid book) and I just want t..."SM's writing is an easy read, in the sense there are not too many complicated words or plots etc...I actually found that I could get into her story quite easily without her going off on a tangent about details of bricks and how old they must have been (which I cannot stand!) She sticks to the story without breaking away from it and in fact that in my opinion is a skill.
Nuran wrote: "But would more research fit into the story she wanted to tell? It be what we have now but bogged down with details that wouldn't make the story any better. I understand research for fiction that is factual based, for example set in war or Victorian time, I don't see how research would add to her story apart from gives us more rubbish to read. ."Actually having read some Vampire fiction might have helped her. Just a tiny bit y'know?
Actually having read any fiction might have helped her as a writer just a tiny bit ... (and I'm not talking The Hungry Caterpillar as recommended by all good Right Wing American Institutions)
Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism she's been getting for not bein..."
That wasn't really the line I was taking. What I was trying to say was that "research" might have exempted her from this type of criticism that she was, to be blunt, "lazy." Research is just one way out of many. Not that she needed to specifically do research, or that I was criticizing her for not doing it.
That wasn't really the line I was taking. What I was trying to say was that "research" might have exempted her from this type of criticism that she was, to be blunt, "lazy." Research is just one way out of many. Not that she needed to specifically do research, or that I was criticizing her for not doing it.
Alex wrote: "Nuran wrote: "But would more research fit into the story she wanted to tell? It be what we have now but bogged down with details that wouldn't make the story any better. I understand research for f..."Maybe, maybe reading more vampire fic would help but then again the idea of sparkly vampires might be too strong for her not to write.
Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism she's been gettin..."I'm just saying I'm not too sure what SM could research for book. So that path would be closed to her.
Actually, no. The Host was really well written and Twilight wasn't that badly written. She had character description issues and some issues introducing other characters in the Twilight series but other than that I've read worse.
Kirstyn wrote: "Actually, no. The Host was really well written and Twilight wasn't that badly written. She had character description issues and some issues introducing other characters in the Twilight series but o..."agree!
mkc120 wrote: "Rossy wrote: "Lizardhound wrote: "Meyer uses Mary Sues and Gary Stus, clichés, somehow forgot the show-don't-tell rule, spends paragraphs on describing Edward (who has some weird, interesting issue..."the host is so far apart from twilight that there are barely any similarities. jared is described as blond with sienna eyes. edward has bronze hair with green eyes which later get gold. jared is pretty selfish and mean at times, and he hits wanda at least 3 times. edward never hit bella once. plus, the whole story isn't about love. it's about finding who you are inside and not judging people by what they look like on the outside.
Gerd wrote: "Bill wrote: "my ... meds aren't working right..."Ah, now that explains all.
I always had a hunch that they wouldn't let a specimen like you just roam free. :)"
Fuck you. That's fucking low. I don't make fun of people because of things that they have no control over, like migraines (imagine having a pain so intense that every sound and bright light sends railroad spikes through your skull, and not only having no control over it, but having to go out and work or take exams like that), or mental illness (I had a friend with clinical depression, who couldn't live without meds, and couldn't live with the side effects of his meds, so he hanged himself).
Eat shit, cockbreath. Do not ever, EVER fucking speak to me again. Don't bother to apologize, because it's as fucking worthless as you are.
What a mature post, Bill. I suppose it's okay for Bill to edit my posts to claim I'm a child abuser, but when someone edits yours to claim you're under psychiatric care, this tactic is suddenly a problem and you go into a huge rant. It's always odd to me that bullies can't take what they give out. I think it's time for Bill to find something else to fill his time. He contributes nothing of any worth here.
Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism s..."Not to nick pick, but to give some guidance, various areas Stefanie could have researched for twilight to make it more authentic (though I agree with another poster, paragraph after paragraph waxing lyrical about the colour of someone's eyes and how they compare to chocolate and what type of chocolate makes me bored):
-Forks. I know, I know, she googled. But she gets so specific about the vegetation and it's like, do you even know from one quick trip to google?
-the quiluetes - I actually learned about an indigenous American tribe from her that wasn't Cherokee, so kudos, but again, they were moulded around Jacob.
-vampires - again, I know, I know, we get a full chapter of Bella researching, which probably reads from day 6 of fourteen of her prep-diary. This is all the research Stefanie did. It could be worse, HoN both ruined the end of Dracula for me (I was halfway through, reading them concurrently) and then twisted it into something that wasn't even there. But Stefanie again only explores what is relevant for the story. She probably asked Jeeves 'what folklores fit into my sparkly vampire love story?'
-the early 20th century for Edward's past, beyond 'there was Scarlet fever' - he would also be involved someway in World War One from the dates, no?
-England in the 17th century, for Carlisle's backstory. Since this is the period after one of the coolest eras in English history, I'm pretty pissed off with the portrayal. I'm talking about the Tudors, damn they were amazing.
-blood. Just anything blood, talking about coagulants and dead and live blood doesn't mean anything. Does she think how it might be Bella's iron levels that cause her smell? Her blood type? She has a common one, but an uncommon smell, why couldn't she be AB-? (Funnily, the universal platelet type is AB+, not O- like full blood. See that, that right there? Background knowledge.) I'm not saying that twilight should be a textbook but we get that guff about extra chromosomes to explain the genetic makeup of vampires and werewolves so why not the same treatment for what is a large portion of the backstory?
-Italy. The place she describes in new moon sounds like a town I went to once. Mdina in Malta (gorgeous place. I said to my friends I felt like Bella and we took the piss right by a bunch of nuns. Then skipped down the streets, because we're awesome like that) but Malta is a half-days boat journey from Sicily, which is Italy's most southern tip. It is an independent island that is considered part of the English commonwealth. Not the same thing, exactly.
There are more, but I've been working since 10 last night and I've had a long, stressful night so my Brian's giving up. But like I said, it was only meant to be examples.
P.s. excuse above typos, I'm on my iPad and it is a stubborn bitch. And I repeat, I'm exhausted. And hungry, I'm also hungry.
Siobhan wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts ..."All good things to research, but would she have used that research or still have written the bare minimum while moulding it to fit her story? I don't think it was laziness that stopped her, but because she was just going to make her own shit up anyway.
Siobhan wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Nuran wrote: "Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts ..."I totally agree with you. I'm from Italy, and what I read from her books was stereotipical and kind of offensive. And yes, Malta is a beautiful island, but not part of Italy.
Siobhan wrote: "-the early 20th century for Edward's past, beyond 'there was Scarlet fever' - he would also be involved someway in World War One from the dates, no?"If you're discussing that he should have been involved in fighting the war, he was 17 when he died. He was considered too young to enlist or be drafted.
I liked how Meyer didn't go for the obvious WWI reference, but hit things closer to home. It's more nuanced and realitistic.
If we are talking about authors making mistakes, here is a site devoted to this hobby of a subset of readers. The truth is that all writers make mistakes and errors. It's not a big deal. www.bookmistakes.com
Siobhan wrote: -the quiluetes - I actually learned about an indigenous American tribe from her that wasn't Cherokee, so kudos, but again, they were moulded around Jacob.Some members of that particular tribe are not entirely happy with Twilight's depictions. She researched the geographic region and the legends but it doesn't seem like she devoted much time to researching much of their culture beyond that. In interviews, she says that she did, but I don't see much evidence of it in the books. Bella spends a lot of time on the reservation but there isn't much desciption of life there. However, that criticism rarely comes up with regards to what she did and didn't research for Twilight. People care more about whether she looked up the lore on ficticious creatures and attempted to depict them more "accurately".
England in the 17th century, for Carlisle's backstory. Since this is the period after one of the coolest eras in English history, I'm pretty pissed off with the portrayal. I'm talking about the Tudors, damn they were amazing.
I once read on a Twilight fanforum that Carlisle hiding in sewers and tunnels after being turned is historically inaccurate because they hadn't been built yet in those times. I don't know whether that claim is actually true or not, though.
-the early 20th century for Edward's past, beyond 'there was Scarlet fever' - he would also be involved someway in World War One from the dates, no?
This is actually addressed in Edward's back story. He was 17 when he was turned. He wanted to go to war and would have had he lived. He died too young.
On the question of whether research is important or not, I think it depends on the book. For example, Regency romance critics will tear an author a new one if it isn't researched properly down to the most minute detail. An author writing a scene that is set in a courtroom may need to research courtroom procedures if they aren't familiar with them. However, I notice that Twilight is not overly descriptive of anything that does not directly pertain to Bella and Edward's story. I think some of the research that is being suggested sends the story off into tangents that the author probably wanted to avoid. The Twilight books were pretty long already. I don't know what could be cut to allow room for a desciption of WWI or the Tudors and I am also not sure how any of that is relevant to Bella and Edward's story now.
Bill wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Bill wrote: "my ... meds aren't working right..."Ah, now that explains all.
I always had a hunch that they wouldn't let a specimen like you just roam free. :)"
Fuck you. That's fuc..."
I think you missed the humorous intent of Gerd's post. I don't think he meant it negatively towards anyone who is actually on meds - it's just his dry humour. As someone who has also known people with mental illness issues I take that stuff seriously too, but personally would rather make light comedy of it than otherwise.
Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it."There's no real logic to that statement - I dearly love to play Billiards, but I pretty much suck at it. Just because you love doing something doesn't mean you excel at it.
Though, I would agree that if you love doing something you should be more willing to take on criticism of your work - at least the valid parts.
Typos galore, good thing I'm no writer. :D
I didn't think she was a bad writer, it was just geared toward a different audience and may have been a little elementary in her writing. And because of that she was able to captivate teens and adults.It was an easy book to read with something for everyone. She kept is simple and developed the characters to an extent.
After I read this I will be honest I needed more. I enjoyed that characters so much I wished too that there were other books about the characters. Thats actually how I got hooked on the Black Dagger series.
Gerd wrote: " I dearly love to play Billiards, but I pretty much suck at it"I would say that your idea of love is my idea of "kinda enjoy a bit". You can't really call my statement illogical when there's no logical agreement on what "love" actually means.
The whole point of my post was to suggest that love means, or is more descriptive of, a deep-rooted passion.
Bill wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Bill wrote: "my ... meds aren't working right..."
Ah, now that explains all.
I always had a hunch that they wouldn't let a specimen like you just roam free. :)"
Fuck you. That's fuc..."
Chill out Bill. It was just a joke. Remember, Gerd is "just a faceless poster...."
Ah, now that explains all.
I always had a hunch that they wouldn't let a specimen like you just roam free. :)"
Fuck you. That's fuc..."
Chill out Bill. It was just a joke. Remember, Gerd is "just a faceless poster...."
Alex wrote: "The whole point of my post was to suggest that love means, or is more descriptive of, a deep-rooted passion."I can see that love for the written word in Bradbury's work - but that doesn't mean that a person with a lesser aptitude doesn't love it just as much. I just don't believe that love has to translate to passion.
You can have a honest to god love for something, and still not be very good at it.
Gerd wrote: "You can have a honest to god love for something, and still not be very good at it. "The thrust of what I wrote was:
If she *loved* writing she'd go away, read, study and learn about books and literature properly.
She uses way too big words that are unnecessary and stupid to sound smart
Leah wrote: "She uses way too big words that are unnecessary and stupid to sound smart"
Very true.
Very true.
Jocelyn wrote: "Leah wrote: "She uses way too big words that are unnecessary and stupid to sound smart"Very true."
"I was unconditionally and irrevocably in love with him"? Really? Really. That was completely unnecessary and useless.
Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd go away, read, study and learn about..."I agree in so far as this is how it should be when you decide to become a published author.
I don't know, yeah it was kind of thrown in there but it's kind of a coin phrase for the series now. I identify this love story with those words now so I don't really mind it.
It just seems like she's trying too hard. You know those people who curse just to sound cool, and it comes out forced and sounds stupid? That's what it's like.Also, there are people who curse just because it's natural to them, and that's ok, as long as it sounds natural and doesn't come out forced and doesn't sound stupid. That's like regular, intelligent authors.
Leah wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Leah wrote: "She uses way too big words that are unnecessary and stupid to sound smart"
Very true."
"I was unconditionally and irrevocably in love with him"? Really? Really. That ..."
Edward also glares at Bella, who watches him surreptitiously. Edward's chest is sculpted and incandescent, his arms are scintillating and what else...what else...
Very true."
"I was unconditionally and irrevocably in love with him"? Really? Really. That ..."
Edward also glares at Bella, who watches him surreptitiously. Edward's chest is sculpted and incandescent, his arms are scintillating and what else...what else...
Leah wrote: "It just seems like she's trying too hard. You know those people who curse just to sound cool, and it comes out forced and sounds stupid? That's what it's like."
Brilliantly put. I'd also say she tries to hard on the wrong things. She should focus on developing Bella and Edward's relationship in accordance to the amount of time she spends gushing about it, expanding side characters and filling up her plot holes.
Brilliantly put. I'd also say she tries to hard on the wrong things. She should focus on developing Bella and Edward's relationship in accordance to the amount of time she spends gushing about it, expanding side characters and filling up her plot holes.
Exactly. Also, I don't really like what examples she's putting out there for teenage girls. She's encouraging teen pregnancy and stalking. Did you know that Bella and Edward meet every requirement for an abusive relationship?
I don't think it was all the requirements, but they met a majority of them.http://pamgutz.livejournal.com/6499.html
Yeah, I know. They're still in an abusive relationship. But it seems that some of the readers still doesn't believe it.
Personally even though I've heard all of the arguments that state Twilight as portraying an abusive relationship I've always believed that when supernatural elements are added to a story it changes the environment and the stakes. So a lot of what happens in the book if it occured in a teenage relationship in real life than yeah there would be huge problems with that but with the supernatural element the stakes are so much more intense that I think it affects my perception of certain everns but that's just me.
K wrote: "Personally even though I've heard all of the arguments that state Twilight as portraying an abusive relationship I've always believed that when supernatural elements are added to a story it changes..."Let's say Edward was a human teenager.... still creepy.
What Leah said. I think even though you take away the "supernatural" aspect of Twilight, you'd have pretty much a normal story. The fact that there were vampires and werewolves in this story isn't enough for me to believe that it's a supernatural type of story. But... that's just me.
Alex wrote: "..."No. There's no excuse that makes that funny in any way.
If I were to take what I see in Mickey's picture and call her a "flat-chested, rat-faced, dyke-looking bitch," who here wouldn't automatically jump all over me and call me out? Who here wouldn't just tear into me like a well-cooked steak?
What he did was a form of bullying, just as sure as what the cult of personality around Meyers has been doing this entire thread to "antis." We're brushed off, our points are dismissed as "mere opinion" (in the technical world, technical problems are bugs, not opinion, and Meyers makes plenty of technical mistakes), and in some instances we're ganged up on and personally attacked.. But we're the "bullies," we're wrong, and Meyers fanatics are not a cult, right?
I can make fun of Twitards because they can help what they are: they can choose to read better books, idolize better authors... or, better yet, simply appreciate a good author without trying to force everyone around them to like them, too. You'll note, though, that I never go for their mental illnesses, or physical deformities. That's going way over the line.
Judging by the first 5 words of Mickey's post, I'll guess that the Queen Bully herself is trying to justify the insult. She can save her breath... all I can hear when I see her posts now is Bella's lines in the Bad Lip Reading redub of Twilight:
Mickey wrote: "You slapped a fish! Why would you do that?"
That way, they're actually relevant to the discussion at hand.
Bill wrote: "What he did was a form of bullying, just as sure as what the cult of personality around Meyers has been doing this entire thread to "antis." We're brushed off, our points are dismissed as "mere opinion" (in the technical world, technical problems are bugs, not opinion, and Meyers makes plenty of technical mistakes), and in some instances we're ganged up on and personally attacked.. But we're the "bullies," we're wrong, and Meyers fanatics are not a cult, right?"
Dude, I think it's better for the situation if you just roll with the joke. It's just...teasing, really. Also, you've demonstrated so far that you don't give a fuck to anyone's opinion of you...so why should this be any different? Just chill out and have fun. GR is supposed to be fun. I've been teased before and it can be pretty funny. I've been called crazy, insane and trollish...and it's AWESOME!
My point is that you can sometimes tell when people are joking or bullying. And in this case, I think it's obvious that Gerd did not mean his comment as a personal attack.
I'll acknowledge that some fans HAVE brushed off our opinions in the name of "subjectivity," etc. etc., but the problem here is that you're generalizing...and it's very rare that anyone has an adequate excuse to do that.
I can make fun of Twitards because they can help what they are: they can choose to read better books, idolize better authors... or, better yet, simply appreciate a good author without trying to force everyone around them to like them, too. You'll note, though, that I never go for their mental illnesses, or physical deformities. That's going way over the line.
But you did say that they don't have feelings worth noting. The truth is that, no matter how stupid you deem them they still have a right to their opinion. I think Meyer sucks as an author too, but after all, the Internet is a community and it's a place to share. It would be pretty boring without differing opinions.
You're justifying personal attacks and what could technically be called "bullying" (I can make fun of Twitards because they can help what they are) with the fact that their opinion does not conform to yours. Whether you're trolling or not, whether you intend for it to be serious or not...in the end, that's not an argument, that's not a justification, that's a fallacy.
Dude, I think it's better for the situation if you just roll with the joke. It's just...teasing, really. Also, you've demonstrated so far that you don't give a fuck to anyone's opinion of you...so why should this be any different? Just chill out and have fun. GR is supposed to be fun. I've been teased before and it can be pretty funny. I've been called crazy, insane and trollish...and it's AWESOME!
My point is that you can sometimes tell when people are joking or bullying. And in this case, I think it's obvious that Gerd did not mean his comment as a personal attack.
I'll acknowledge that some fans HAVE brushed off our opinions in the name of "subjectivity," etc. etc., but the problem here is that you're generalizing...and it's very rare that anyone has an adequate excuse to do that.
I can make fun of Twitards because they can help what they are: they can choose to read better books, idolize better authors... or, better yet, simply appreciate a good author without trying to force everyone around them to like them, too. You'll note, though, that I never go for their mental illnesses, or physical deformities. That's going way over the line.
But you did say that they don't have feelings worth noting. The truth is that, no matter how stupid you deem them they still have a right to their opinion. I think Meyer sucks as an author too, but after all, the Internet is a community and it's a place to share. It would be pretty boring without differing opinions.
You're justifying personal attacks and what could technically be called "bullying" (I can make fun of Twitards because they can help what they are) with the fact that their opinion does not conform to yours. Whether you're trolling or not, whether you intend for it to be serious or not...in the end, that's not an argument, that's not a justification, that's a fallacy.
Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism she's been getting for not being able to do it.If she *loved* writing sh..."
How do you know? People love to sing and dance and absolutely suck at it! That doesn't mean they don't love it!
Bill wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Bill wrote: "my ... meds aren't working right..."Ah, now that explains all.
I always had a hunch that they wouldn't let a specimen like you just roam free. :)"
Fuck you. That's fuc..."
I am actually going to agree with Bill on this one, because you really shouldn't say something like that to anyone, no matter if you like them or not. It's not only insulting but it shows that you have absolutely no sympathy and I can't stand when people say things like that.
Leah wrote: "Exactly. Also, I don't really like what examples she's putting out there for teenage girls. She's encouraging teen pregnancy and stalking. Did you know that Bella and Edward meet every requirement ..."Twilight encourages teen pregnancy? Really? That is a new one. I think I would have been more inclined to accept a "Twilight encourages premarital sex" allegation since she did want that even though Edward wanted to wait, but encouraging teen pregnancy is way too extreme. Bella was over 18 and married when she got pregnant.
All these poor silly teens of the world who are so easily influenced by a book (and not at all by their parents, it seems...) that they need to sheltered, shielded and protected from such harmful negative images.
People are just paranoid, in denial and are scapegoating. Teen pregnancy is actually down in the US and is at its lowest rate in decades (despite Twilight's popularity and all of the supposed evil Twilight influences.)
Mocha Spresso wrote: "Leah wrote: "Exactly. Also, I don't really like what examples she's putting out there for teenage girls. She's encouraging teen pregnancy and stalking. Did you know that Bella and Edward meet every..."Ok, fine, forget that.
it's still a bad book.
I do not “hate” Twilight nor am I “jealous” of its fictional characters. I do think many of Twilight’s champions are comparing it to great works of literature without first reading those books. Twilight does not even come close in literary merit to East of Eden, To Kill A Mockingbird, Palace Walk, or many other more well developed and finely crafted works of fiction. If you enjoy Twilight, fine. I like a light read sometimes too. The book is succeeding for you, but that does not make it one of the best books ever written.
Deon wrote: "I do not “hate” Twilight nor am I “jealous” of its fictional characters. I do think many of Twilight’s champions are comparing it to great works of literature without first reading those books. T..."Twilight is accused of sending negative messages to teens because of its content. Do you think East of Eden is more or less appropriate for teens to read than Twilight?
@Bill: This really seems to have gotten you, instead of you just being your usual winning self, therefore and although you said I shouldn't bother to, let offer my sincere apologies.Guess I did over step the line there, which goes to show that humour is a private thing as they say. All I can put forth to my defense is that I would have thought that somebody who's so cynical and often confrontational in his postings would know how to take a bit of a (albeit cruel) teasing.
I certainly don't come here to ruin anybodies day, at least not intenionally, so if I really offended you I'm deeply sorry.
And though I realise it's not of any comfort to you I'm honestly sorry to read that about your friend, which is easy for me to say, I'm aware of that, but I wouldn't have made that joke had I known.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Gerd wrote: "@Bill: This really seems to have gotten you, instead of you just being your usual winning self, therefore and although you said I shouldn't bother to, let offer my sincere apologies.
Guess I did o..."
Whoa there...I must say that while I'm more willing to criticize Bill for saying "Eat shit, cockbreath. Do not ever, EVER fucking speak to me again. Don't bother to apologize, because it's as fucking worthless as you are" ....I have to admire that...Bill's response was pretty darn harsh.
....I would have thought that somebody who's so cynical and often confrontational in his postings would know how to take a bit of a (albeit cruel) teasing.
Lol! I had thought the same.
Guess I did o..."
Whoa there...I must say that while I'm more willing to criticize Bill for saying "Eat shit, cockbreath. Do not ever, EVER fucking speak to me again. Don't bother to apologize, because it's as fucking worthless as you are" ....I have to admire that...Bill's response was pretty darn harsh.
....I would have thought that somebody who's so cynical and often confrontational in his postings would know how to take a bit of a (albeit cruel) teasing.
Lol! I had thought the same.
Kaylee wrote: "..... You people are still arguing?"
obviously.
obviously.
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But would more research fit into the story she wanted to tell? It be what we have now but bogged down with details that wouldn't make the story any better. I understand research for fiction that is factual based, for example set in war or Victorian time, I don't see how research would add to her story apart from gives us more rubbish to read.