Twilight
discussion
Is Stephenie a bad writer?
Bill, I have a McJob, don't you rag on mcjob's! I would be so freaking bored doing anything else now. Can you make a presentation in less than 2 minutes and hit every point needed in that time? Exaaaaactly!
Bill wrote: "Jordan wrote: "It involves creating believable characters, a believable plot, and actual research into what you are writing about...."I think you confuse believable with realistic there.
Bill wrote: "At this point, anyone who can immerse themselves in the story should just resign themselves to living in a trailer with 4 kids, welfare checks, a drunken "boyfriend" who smacks them around, and a dead-end McJob, because that's the level of stupid it takes to actually suspend disbelief enough to get past page 10 of this abortion.There are dozens of books that detail how a good novel can be written. Do yourself and everyone else around you a huge favor and read one. You'll save yourself the trouble of trying to convince the football team captain that it is, indeed, his baby, and he should do the right thing."
What a ridiculous bunch of narrow-minded stereotypes you have based on if people enjoyed a book. You are embarrassing yourself, Bill. I can't imagine the sort of mess you've made out of your life if you feel the need to come on here and rant about others for daring to like something that you don't. Grow up.
Another subject:
As far as "how a good novel is written" books, I think part of the problem here is that people have taken such books as a sort of rulebook. Most of these books are not written by the so-called top tier of writers and I don't know if even the authors of these books would take them as seriously as some here seem to.
Those books might be useful to aspiring authors who want to be published, but the truth of the matter is that you could follow every direction in one of those books and still write terribly. If, instead of reading these rulebooks, you spend a considerable time reading books, you'll see that there are no hard-and-fast rules to writing good books. All the rules that are in those books are frequently broken and the result is still an amazing book. Creating a template that all books must fit in order to be "good" will only result in narrowing what you experience in literature. It certainly doesn't make you a better reader. I'd say it makes you a worse one.
When you become absorbed in details and rules, you start missing the big picture. It's like so-called legalistic religion. There are people that are strict rule-followers who believe that their worth (or devotion) and the worth of others is based on how closely they follow the rules. (The comparison is a little tenuous based on the fact that the "What makes a Good Novel" books are not strictly canonical, but they are often treated as if they are.)
Reading "What Makes a Good Novel" books or "How to Write" books are interesting if you take them for what they are: tips or opinions from another person. If you start thinking that you have received Holy Scripture from above and have now gained the right to damn writers (and their fans) to holy hellfire for breaking rules or "not doing it right", I'd advise you to skip it. No one is impressed with that sort of religious fervor.
Bill wrote: a bunch of nonsense not worthy of being quoted...There are teenagers as young as 13 and 14 reading and posting in these threads. Possibly some even younger. If you want to do whatever it is you think you are doing here.....at least do it in the Fifty Shades of Grey threads. Most of the people there are adults.
I could care less about you wanting to be a troll and a bully on the internet. I do have a problem with you, as a supposedly grown man with children of his own, doing it in a forum that frequented by kids that are so young.
Luckily, most of the kids who are active posters seem to be intelligent and have solid heads on their shoulders and will probably ignore you.
Mocha Spresso wrote: "There are teenagers as young as 13 and 14 reading and posting in these threads. Possibly some even younger. If you want to do whatever it is you think you are doing here.....at least do it in the Fifty Shades of Grey threads. Most of the people there are adults. I could care less about you wanting to be a troll and a bully on the internet. I do have a problem with you, as a supposedly grown man with children of his own, doing it in a forum that frequented by kids that are so young."
What's even worse is that he's actually addressing this "commentary" to young people. If you look at how this is constructed, his main point is that if you like Twilight, this is what your future will be (starting with high school and beyond). He knows and has in his mind that he's addressing someone underaged. It's not as if he has the defense that he's addressing the adults here.
Peace wrote: "i wonder if some ppl do or do not like her writing that in all the twi &the host books.."Kinda the entire point of half of the threads, but well done.
I didn't like her books, but actually I don't think she's a bad writer. OK, she's certainly not the best, to tell the truth I don't think she's even great. But she has got a decent style and a good use of English. Her only problem is the story and the characters, which are boring, boring, boring. I also don't think she can put up with a time lapse. Her characters never develop.
There are things Meyer did well and things she didn't.Characters? No. Bella has no personality, Edward's a romanticized creepy manipulative overprotective stalker with no real personality but for angst and "Bella is girlfriend, not food".
Incorporating pop culture references in amusing ways? Sure. I found myself snickering at things like "No radioactive spiders?"
Attention to detail? She tries just a little too hard on this. It might be an exaggeration from my memory, but I seem to recall her spending two pages on describing a car. She's too caught up in pointless details. Of course, some people like that, so it's more of a personal preference.
Use of thesaurus? It's obvious when she uses one. It'll be fourth grade level of writing (nothing wrong with that. Just makes it an easy read, and sometimes that's a great thing), but then there will be this large word thrown in out of nowhere. After years of reading/writing fanfiction and original works by amateur writers, it's pretty easy to spot the "Oh, I use x-word far too much, so let's thesaurus it."
Story itself? Well, it revolves around flat-character Bella whining about her life. The concept of "high school girl falling in love with vampire" is interesting, but the characters really just kill it. And that last book felt like a happy fanfic that her editor said, "We need more action!" and so she had to suddenly switch gears without warning.
What I think is the biggest reason people say she's bad is that some Twilight fans claim her writing in the Twilight series is better than Jane Austen, William Shakespeare, etc. When Twilight's been around for a hundred years, I'll consider it, but until then, they can't really make that claim in my opinion.
Bill wrote: "Jordan wrote: "What you are saying is she wrote her book wrong. That is like telling a song writer that he/she wrote his/her song wrong. It is just people's opinion, and you keep acting as if there..."Read the post I wrote after that I corrected what I said. And I found the characters believable. OPNION!!!
Peace wrote: "i wonder if some ppl do or do not like her writing that in all the twi &the host books.."That's already been answered a lot. Most people here that I have seen hate Twilight but love the Host. I have to read that one...
Meyer kept me spellbound by her writing. The characters may be all dumb and the story even extra, but the narrative is great.
Selena wrote: "The concept of "high school girl falling in love with vampire" is interesting."I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this. I find the whole vampire love story (in general) to be way overdone. Although, Twilight had made that last step with being published and all, I really don't see how this particular story sets it apart from the millions of other vampire inspired romance fanfics.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is I don't really see the originality anywhere with the entire series. :/ Besides the whole sparkling thing.
She isn't the worst I've read. Some of her concepts are awful, especially everything in her last book, but her writing is easy and flows well. Most writers are known to bend the rules of how to write a novel, so small things don't bother me.
Jordan wrote: "Peace wrote: "i wonder if some ppl do or do not like her writing that in all the twi &the host books.."That's already been answered a lot. Most people here that I have seen hate Twilight but love..."
that's true. You should read the host, it's really good. oh and @ bill: jordan already explained like twice that what she meant was that meyer has the right because she wrote the books. You can't tell meyer that her story is wrong because it's hers, and that is your opinion, not a fact. Maybe the way she wrote it was wrong (as in maybe she skipped the beginning or the middle or something) but that can be debatable too, because as Mickey said, there really aren't any exact guidelines on how to write a book.
Jocelyn wrote: "I know this is completely irrelevant, but I'd just like to jump in and say that it's a lot more complex than that."No... not really. When you break it all down, it's that basic. The details all go to serve those three basics.
To anyone else who chimed in: if you have rated this piece of shit w/ more than 3 stars, your opinion is unworthy of a response, since you clearly can't be bothered to actually pay attention to what you're reading... why should I pay any attention to what you wrote? The only people who have made any sense up to this point are the "antis," because they have actually backed up what they've said with real proof... all the Twitards have repeated the same script over an over again, like a Holy Writ. Don't try to tell me they're not in a cult, they sure as fuck act like they are.
Every one of your points has been addressed earlier in the thread, before everyone decided to make me their villain. If you really needed a bad guy, you picked exactly the wrong person to cast.
One person I will address... and I'll use her own techniques to do so: I skimmed her post, and what I got out of it was...
Mickey wrote: "I hit my brother. He's just Kevin..."
Child abuse is a serious problem. You should seek help.
so now it's a crime to like what i read? whether i rate twilight with more than 3 stars or not is my decision and my opinion. You should pay attention to it because I'm the person (or one of the people) who you're arguing with, so you need to pay attention to what i write in order to prove me wrong. ;)
Rossy wrote: "You should pay attention to it because I'm the person (or one of the people) who you're arguing with, so you need to pay attention to what i write in order to prove me wrong. ;)"Bill will do what he's always done: call people who have differing opinions stupid several times and claim they're beneath his notice.
He can't prove anyone wrong.
A friend who is a lawyer had me watch Twilight, then loaned the book to me. I asked my high school students if they knew about the book. (I didn't know about the popularity yet.) They wanted to talk about it. They wanted to discuss the characters, and the choices SM made when writing. Students wanted to express what they liked and didn't like. Both male and female students had comments. Students requested copies of the book so that they could borrow it. (I eventually had to buy a copy of each book in the series.) Twilight got my students reading. Students who didn't like literature of any type, students with reading difficulties who fought any extra reading, wanted to read. Whatever bad things there may be in her writing are irrelevant. She opened up a world of reading for my students. It was like a gateway drug, my students had to have more. And it was wonderful.
Those of you that criticize, please keep in mind that the intended audience for these books is teenagers. Is it written for them, at a level they can understand? Are there emotions/situations that they can relate to? Will it open a discussion? The answer to all of these is yes.
SM captured the attention of teens, without using overt sexual situations, without ramming morals down their throats, without graphic violence, without constant foul language. I think gets a few more stars for that alone.
Mickey wrote: "Rossy wrote: "You should pay attention to it because I'm the person (or one of the people) who you're arguing with, so you need to pay attention to what i write in order to prove me wrong. ;)"Bil..."
very well said. that sounds exactly like what he does. i just wish he would learn to respect other people's opinions. i mean you and i kind of got in a little... skirmish... but i mean we're not calling each other stupid and ripping at each others throats
Bill wrote: "No... not really. When you break it all down, it's that basic. The details all go to serve those three basics."
Really? Pacing certainly doesn't. The rhythm of the novel has nothing whatsoever to do with a believable plot, characters, or research.
Prose also has nothing to do with believable characters, believable plot and research.
As for world-building, yes it can have research, but ultimately it's how the author applies that world to the story.
As for a believable plot...I've read books with believable plots that were still sub-par.
Take Rowling, for example. I found the plotting of the Deathly Hallows to be disjointed, messy, and tacked-on, with last-minute plot devices (Horcruxes much? Hallows?). You could call it believable...but as a work of fiction, I thought it was sub-par at best.
In the Hunger Games, Collins created a believable plot, and I still thought it was an utter piece of shit. She creates a believable plot, but a plot with unfinished story arcs that are abruptly cut off with sudden deaths (which is supposedly "realistic.")
There's also a lot of context in it as well, the genre, intended audience, etc.
I've read believable characters that still bored me to death.
The thing is that literature is never, ever, ever that simple. I don't think it's possible to "boil it down to basics." They're just very bare and vague "rudiments" of literature that need a VAST amount of exploring to objectively look at a book.
Really? Pacing certainly doesn't. The rhythm of the novel has nothing whatsoever to do with a believable plot, characters, or research.
Prose also has nothing to do with believable characters, believable plot and research.
As for world-building, yes it can have research, but ultimately it's how the author applies that world to the story.
As for a believable plot...I've read books with believable plots that were still sub-par.
Take Rowling, for example. I found the plotting of the Deathly Hallows to be disjointed, messy, and tacked-on, with last-minute plot devices (Horcruxes much? Hallows?). You could call it believable...but as a work of fiction, I thought it was sub-par at best.
In the Hunger Games, Collins created a believable plot, and I still thought it was an utter piece of shit. She creates a believable plot, but a plot with unfinished story arcs that are abruptly cut off with sudden deaths (which is supposedly "realistic.")
There's also a lot of context in it as well, the genre, intended audience, etc.
I've read believable characters that still bored me to death.
The thing is that literature is never, ever, ever that simple. I don't think it's possible to "boil it down to basics." They're just very bare and vague "rudiments" of literature that need a VAST amount of exploring to objectively look at a book.
Rossy wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Peace wrote: "i wonder if some ppl do or do not like her writing that in all the twi &the host books.."That's already been answered a lot. Most people here that I have seen hate Tw..."
Thanks
Bill wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "I know this is completely irrelevant, but I'd just like to jump in and say that it's a lot more complex than that."No... not really. When you break it all down, it's that basic. T..."
Oh, so everyone who rates the book over 3 stars is pretty much worthless??? Interesting, you know I could say the same for people who rate it under 3 stars, but you're the only one I have a problem with :)
Jordan wrote: "Rossy wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Peace wrote: "i wonder if some ppl do or do not like her writing that in all the twi &the host books.."That's already been answered a lot. Most people here that I hav..."
no problem :)
Jocelyn wrote: "Really? Pacing certainly doesn't. The rhythm of the novel has nothing whatsoever to do with a believable plot, characters, or research.Prose also has nothing to do with believable characters, believable plot and research.
As for world-building, yes it can have research, but ultimately it's how the author applies that world to the story.
As for a believable plot...I've read books with believable plots that were still sub-par."
Pacing helps with immersion, which aids in believability. The reverse is also true.
If a book is unevenly paced, with long lulls between action sequences (or if nothing happens at all... *cough*Twilight *cough*) it breaks immersion, and I'm less likely to overlook minor flaws in the story (or big ones, like how you keep the population of a District viable when you starve its people or kill two of its citizens each year).
Prose evolves from research and making your story believable. One of my current favorite authors, Joe Abercrombie, actually adjusts his prose between chapters to help immerse the reader into the POV character's mindset; getting the dialect just so must have taken a ton of research.
It's all really just as basic as I said. It's how you juggle the pieces that makes you a great author, as opposed to being Meyers.
Bill wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Really? Pacing certainly doesn't. The rhythm of the novel has nothing whatsoever to do with a believable plot, characters, or research.Prose also has nothing to do with believable..."
pacing helps but it isn't necessary. And i also wanted to say, based on your earlier comment where you talk about what a good book needs to have, meyer didn't need to do any research to write her book. she could make stuff up because it's hers. and also, if you think about it, doing research on vampires wouldn't do any good because that's all made up too. i mean vampires don't exist, so the "facts" on them aren't real.
and people, it's MEYER, not meyerS!! just saying, not trying to be mean.
Bill wrote: "Prose evolves from research and making your story believable. One of my current favorite authors, Joe Abercrombie, actually adjusts his prose between chapters to help immerse the reader into the POV character's mindset; getting the dialect just so must have taken a ton of research."
Eh. I'm not sure how that relates to the prose; "dialects" are part of world-building and characterization, from what you wrote there.
Prose is the art of putting words together in the way that best communicates the story. You don't do factual research to create a unique and distinctive voice.
The prose itself, in general, does not need research. What you pointed out with Joe Abercrombie is only one instance--it doesn't apply to literature as a whole, because there are a huge number of ways to create one's style--the vast majority of which does not require research.
I wouldn't say "prose evolves from...making your story believable." There are plenty of books out there with terrific prose, and unbelievable stories.
Pacing helps with immersion, which aids in believability. The reverse is also true.
I really don't think that immersion "aids in believability." How does it? Do you mean to say that it aids in suspending disbelief? (that's what I gather from "I'm less likely to overlook minor flaws in the story....") That's not the same. It's just the act of ignoring the unbelievability, instead of correcting it.
Eh. I'm not sure how that relates to the prose; "dialects" are part of world-building and characterization, from what you wrote there.
Prose is the art of putting words together in the way that best communicates the story. You don't do factual research to create a unique and distinctive voice.
The prose itself, in general, does not need research. What you pointed out with Joe Abercrombie is only one instance--it doesn't apply to literature as a whole, because there are a huge number of ways to create one's style--the vast majority of which does not require research.
I wouldn't say "prose evolves from...making your story believable." There are plenty of books out there with terrific prose, and unbelievable stories.
Pacing helps with immersion, which aids in believability. The reverse is also true.
I really don't think that immersion "aids in believability." How does it? Do you mean to say that it aids in suspending disbelief? (that's what I gather from "I'm less likely to overlook minor flaws in the story....") That's not the same. It's just the act of ignoring the unbelievability, instead of correcting it.
honestly the people saying they did not like her writing are the ones who didnt like twilight or are using twilights characters and lack of personality. Most people i know who read the books prior to the movie loved her series. I think the hard part to critic her writing you have to forget the movie and focus on her overall plot ideas punctuation and writing. She has written books for the average reader and when she drops things people consider "wordy" she leaves context clues. Overall I think she proves herself worthy to call herself writer. :)
Sarah wrote: "honestly the people saying they did not like her writing are the ones who didnt like twilight or are using twilights characters and lack of personality. Most people i know who read the books prior ..."i agree. also, a lot of people are judging her on twilight alone. I mean what happened to the host?
Ooh i read that book. Its really good, and ya there is going yo be a movie :)
Yes, its really different from twilight. I hope the movie is good, and i have to say that it looks good from what i can tell from the trailer. However, someone from another discussion mentioned that the book focuses on wanda and the movie seems to focus on melanie, so we'll see how that will turn out.
Jocelyn wrote: "Bill wrote: "Prose evolves from research and making your story believable. One of my current favorite authors, Joe Abercrombie, actually adjusts his prose between chapters to help immerse the reade..."I'm having some difficulties at the moment (my migraine meds aren't working right, and I've been fighting one since Christmas), so when I get them cleared up, I'll get back and respond. I'd suggest moving this conversation somewhere less Twilight-y, as it doesn't seem right having this discussion with all of the dumb people listening (pearls before swine, and all that).
Bill wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Bill wrote: "Prose evolves from research and making your story believable. One of my current favorite authors, Joe Abercrombie, actually adjusts his prose between chapters to help i..."Well, the discussion is on the book Twilight. Like, you know when you look at the discussions, and the books are up there? Yeah, well this one is under twilight, so I think the conversation should stay "twilighty"
Peace wrote: "i wonder would it be the same in the host movie, would there be another one of those love triangls type of thing or not? that would be quite funny if there was 1."As jake abel said, it's a BOX. :D wanda is in it it, ian is in it, jared is in it, but melanie is in it too :)
Bill wrote: "my ... meds aren't working right..."Ah, now that explains all.
I always had a hunch that they wouldn't let a specimen like you just roam free. :)
Caity wrote: "She is not a bad writer, she is a TERRIBLE writer."what books are you judging her on?
Jordan wrote: "Bill wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Bill wrote: "Prose evolves from research and making your story believable. One of my current favorite authors, Joe Abercrombie, actually adjusts his prose between chapt..."And yet... all these other books that are not Twilight was brought into this discussion.
I am fully aware that you weren't the one that brought them up, I'm just putting this out there.
Dorima wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Bill wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Bill wrote: "Prose evolves from research and making your story believable. One of my current favorite authors, Joe Abercrombie, actually adjusts his pros..."I am aware of that, but he said that the discussion shouldn't be about Twilight, can't he have this conversation on something else? Like they could private message, because I don't want to sit at a Twilight discussion reading about a bunch of different books that have nothing to do with the discussion.
Who cares if Stephanie Meyer is a good or bad writer. She sells more books than most other authors. The bottom line is she wrote the books to publish them and earn a living, and she's been wildly successful at that. Those that think she's a terrible writer won't buy her books. Period.
Amen. I agree with everything you said.Dawn wrote: "A friend who is a lawyer had me watch Twilight, then loaned the book to me. I asked my high school students if they knew about the book. (I didn't know about the popularity yet.) They wanted to ..."
Bill wrote: "I'm having some difficulties at the moment (my migraine meds aren't working right, and I've been fighting one since Christmas), so when I get them cleared up, I'll get back and respond. I'd suggest moving this conversation somewhere less Twilight-y, as it doesn't seem right having this discussion with all of the dumb people listening (pearls before swine, and all that)."
I'd suggest just keeping it here. I don't see any reason why we should care enough to take the trouble to move it somewhere else.
I'd suggest just keeping it here. I don't see any reason why we should care enough to take the trouble to move it somewhere else.
Laurisa wrote: "Who cares if Stephanie Meyer is a good or bad writer. She sells more books than most other authors. The bottom line is she wrote the books to publish them and earn a living, and she's been wildly s..."
A lot of people care, actually. The fact that she sells more books is exactly the reason why a lot of people care. Cultural phenomenons are interesting and prompt discussion...which, personally for me, is entertaining and thought-provoking.
A lot of people care, actually. The fact that she sells more books is exactly the reason why a lot of people care. Cultural phenomenons are interesting and prompt discussion...which, personally for me, is entertaining and thought-provoking.
♥ Mariah ~I'm a Ninja!~ wrote: "She's not, just take The Host for example. I think people just don't like Twilight."Hi Mariah,
I would agree with you. I enjoyed the Twilight Series but they are not for everyone. The Host was awesome and I cannot wait for the movie.
mkc120 wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Bill wrote: "Jordan wrote: "oh well aren't you funny. nobody is taking u seriously right now so... yea "I am funny. You just lack a sense of humor.
...and it balances, since I've ..."
Yeah, that's what I thought too. I mean, it's definently possible to write a book, people don't like, but you can't really write it wrong.
mkc120 wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Peace wrote: "just a thought if sm was that bad of writer, would she even still be writing more books,then before type of thing?"Why wouldn't she write more books?
There are peopl..."
If she loves writing she'll write again, whether she wants her future work to be published and cope with the criticscm again that'll be another matter.
mkc120 wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Peace wrote: "just a thought if sm was that bad of writer, would she even still be writing more books,then before type of thing?"
Why wouldn't she write more books?
There are peopl..."
I agree with Nuran. If she can't cope with criticism she should consider quitting her career as an author.
Why wouldn't she write more books?
There are peopl..."
I agree with Nuran. If she can't cope with criticism she should consider quitting her career as an author.
If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism she's been getting for not being able to do it.If she *loved* writing she'd go away, read, study and learn about books and literature properly.
Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism she's been getting for not being able to do it.If she *loved* writing sh..."
I don't agree with that. You can love doing something and not be good at it. I love drawing and painting, but I still need lots of work. You can't get better without practising and putting time into it. She's not the worse writer I've read so she has put work into it. Some people love writing to tell a story, not to do with good grammar or punctuation. SM is lucky that her early work got accepted, that is all.
I don't like her story concepts but she is another creative person, and creative people love being creative even if they still need lots of work.
Nuran wrote: "Alex wrote: "If she *loved* writing she'd be better at it. If she *loved* writing she'd take on board the copious amounts of criticism she's been getting for not being able to do it.
If she *love..."
But the thing is that Stephenie Meyer is a published author. Published. Meaning her writing has been under the scrutiny of professional editors and publishers. There's no excuse for sub-par writing and storytelling.
Also, while *technically* Stephenie Meyer put work into it, I seriously don't thinks she put all that much effort. Considering how quickly she wrote a book with a rather large page count, did no research (not trying to argue that authors SHOULD do research, but I think doing research could be a possible indication of actual effort on SM's part and therefore at least, a little, exempt her from this type of criticism), etc. Most published authors, bestselling ones or not, had to do waaaay more work than that to get their books published.
If she *love..."
But the thing is that Stephenie Meyer is a published author. Published. Meaning her writing has been under the scrutiny of professional editors and publishers. There's no excuse for sub-par writing and storytelling.
Also, while *technically* Stephenie Meyer put work into it, I seriously don't thinks she put all that much effort. Considering how quickly she wrote a book with a rather large page count, did no research (not trying to argue that authors SHOULD do research, but I think doing research could be a possible indication of actual effort on SM's part and therefore at least, a little, exempt her from this type of criticism), etc. Most published authors, bestselling ones or not, had to do waaaay more work than that to get their books published.
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AHAHAHAHAHA!!! That's the funniest fucking thing I've seen, coming from the A1 bully on this thread.
Your arguing style:
Mickey wrote: "You said A, therefore I ..."
Stuff saving that comment about being a bully as your screensaver....I've saving this... LOL!!!!!!! XD