Twilight
discussion
Is Stephenie a bad writer?
Zoran wrote: "I don't think that love isn't valuable issue, but I do claim that Mayer's writing is so bad, that the only satisfaction the reader could possibly get from it, is dreaming of Prince Charming."I got more out of it than that, so apparently, there is more satisfaction to get from it than what you're claiming. You are speaking for a huge population when you speak of fans, and you're not even one of them, so I don't think you would necessarily be a good representative to tell us what we think and what matters to us. Wouldn't a better strategy be (if you are curious of other people's opinions) listening instead of talking?
Mickey wrote: " Wouldn't a better strategy be"Well, it's not really an important subject to me, you know. I'm just using these discussions as a pastime so I don't care much if my strategy is wrong :-p
Plus, I don't think that real fans of anything would ever admit that the object of their afection is - bad. No mater what strategy I would use :-))
And even if you would admit - what good it is to me? :-)))
Zoran wrote: "I would say that Pollock is an opposite to Mayer, in a sense that her work is crowd-pleaser, while his work is appreciated by smaller but better informed audience."I agree on smaller, not so sure about better informed (although, they do get their money's worth in resale value it seems).
Zoran wrote: "Well, it's not really an important subject to me, you know. I'm just using these discussions as a pastime so I don't care much if my strategy is wrong..."You can't think of a better way to pass the time than to troll the internet?
It's good that you don't have the expectation of persuading people of the incorrectness of their opinions. That level of effectiveness is easily achieved. But with such a laidback attitude, why bother saying anything anyway? I mean, what's the point?
Gerd wrote: "I agree on smalle..."When I say "better informed" I think of people who are somewhat educated in art, or who are often visiting galleries and so on. I don't mean that they are necessarily better informed in other areas.
Mickey wrote: "why bother saying anything anyway? I mean, what's the point?"Of all the books I've read, this has the most active discussions. I would very much like to discuss other books, but there's not so much crowd there.
Zoran wrote: "Mickey wrote: "why bother saying anything anyway? I mean, what's the point?"Of all the books I've read, this has the most active discussions. I would very much like to discuss other books, but th..."
But, now you made me think. I've read "Song of Ice and Fire", and there is lot of discussion there. But I just don't feel like I have anything to say about it. It's a great saga, it's an example of masterful writing... what more could I add? Hm. Interesting.
She's a horrible writer. She takes describing way too far. Just think about how many times Edward is described. Are the locations described, or even emotions? Nope, just Edward. Then again, Bella doesn't have emotions in the first place.Her writing style is easy to read, but honestly, I could write better than her and I'm 13. She just takes things way too far, she's got plot holes and there are no plot points to keep the reader interested.
Let's just say Twilight is emergency toilet paper.
Dipendra wrote: "Stephenie has scored a bloody good number of fans.This only means that she is a bloody good writer or people,nowadays,fall for everything gooey romantic."second option...
She is not the worst writer in the world, but she certainly isn't the best.
Zoran wrote: "SM has entertained a lot of people, and it is obvious that she is a good entertainer, but that doesn't make her a good writer."True!
Although not the worst, there are objective reasons for stating that SM is a bad writer (the quality of the plot, descriptions, lack of depth of main characters, etc). I'm not saying people shouldn't read her books or enjoy them, but I get annoyed when they say she's a great writer.
TheFeelsAreOnTheFloor wrote: "50 shades was based off of Twilight so...."I know that, that's why I said it's okay to compare those two.
I found the first book passable. After that, I thought the series continued to go downhill. These books were repetitive and overly dramatic. But, considering the main audience is teenage girls, I can see why. After I read them, to make sure they were ok for my 12 year old who was dying to read them, she decided she wasn't interested anymore. I want my month of reading back! I'll take JK Rowling any day over this.
I don't think the books are classic literature worthy by any means. And I agree, J K Rowling for the win. I don't think they're completely horrible though, and I guess they just appeal because of the surface themes. Obviously when you look a little closer those themes can be quite dark.
Zoran wrote: "Mickey wrote: "No, Zoran, I'm calling your dismissal of th..."I don't think that love isn't valuable issue, but I do claim that Mayer's writing is so bad, that the only satisfaction the reader co..."
i agree with you there
Amelia wrote: "Are the locations described, or even emotions?"I find that always a bit of a difficult accusation.
On one hand people complain about Meyer practically spelling things out to them, on the other they claim that Meyer's style isn't detailed enough.
Perusing that Reasoning with vampires blog the other day (or the day before) I happened upon just such a claim (Meyer being too descriptive), only for the poster to go on and then claim that she didn't understand what Meyer meant to convey with the phrase "with too much force" (something about Jacob kicking a piece of wood) - so it seems that for some readers Meyer can be still too subtle in her approach. :)
Not saying that this isn't something that may irk a reader on a personal level - just saying that some readers seem poised to take offence no matter what you do, it becomes a no win situation for a writer: they will yell at you when you explain, and they will sulk if you don't.
Personally I feel that the first book's writing style was much like how I wrote when I was in High School. I don't think she is a very goof writer. I also don't like how she changes point of view. If you go back and read the beginning of the series, the first chapter of the first book was written kind of in first person, and with out acknowledging that it was possibly a journal entry she switches into third person for the rest of the book. I also didn't enjoy her story very much, it obviously kept me interested enough that I was able to read the entire series. But at the end I was left with a "Meh" feeling. Edward and Bella's relationship is unrealistic and borderline abusive. She gives up her life and a family she loves to be with a guy. Her books send a really bad message to girls in my opinion. Then there's the characters. They are about as soulless as the trees they were printed on. Bella has no personality, and the awkward word exchange between her and Edward is even worse. There is nothing special at all about her character yet all the boys like her, that doesn't make sense, and when Edward doesn't show her the same attention as the rest of the school when she gets there, Bella gets all fussy about it, even though the book tried to portray her as somebody who doesn't like attention. Meyer seemed to put more effort in creating the non-main characters personalities than she did with Edward, Jacob and Bella.
Of course these are my opinions on the story, and its totally cool to disagree with me, but I will not be reading those books again, nor would I ever recommend them to anybody.
People need to get over all the jargon mess and just realize she is a wonderful storyteller and that is all that should matter.
Zoran wrote: "But, now you made me think. I've read "Song of Ice and Fire", and there is lot of discussion there. But I just don't feel like I have anything to say about it. It's a great saga, it's an example of masterful writing... what more could I add? Hm. Interesting."I'd say that you have more to contribute to that group than to this one. Being a hater and spending your time as a hater orientates you to ultimately being less nuanced than you would be otherwise. You have to know that your views of Twilight are shallow and snarky and that your views of fans of Twilight are silly. Spending your time patting yourself on the back because you don't like a book and vilifying those that do is wasted time. It's less than wasted time; it's actually feeding into your natural propensity for arrogance.
Mickey wrote: "I think what makes the Twilight books so interesting is her willingness to take risks. I really hope that she doesn't allow the criticism she gets to change this about her. I like the fact that her..."I also like that about Meyer's writing, I think the reason why the books are so popular is because she is described as just your average clumsy girl, and I'm sure lots of people reading it are able to see themselves as a sort of 'Bella' :)
Oh, good. Another thread dedicated to the haters. Because there aren't enough of those.
TheFeelsAreOnTheFloor wrote: "50 shades was based off of Twilight so...."50 Shades was NOT based off of the Twilight books. 50 Shades is an S/M book, Twilight was a Vampire book two totally different books. 50 Shades had a lot of sex in it by Adults and Twilight has NO SEX in it.
Delia wrote: "50 Shades was NOT based off of the Twilight books. 50 Shades is an S/M book, Twilight was a Vampire book two totally different books. 50 Shades had a lot of sex in it by Adults and Twilight has NO SEX in it."Except one minute of googling proved you wrong and seriously, this is such common knowledge by now, how do you not know?
"The Fifty Shades trilogy was developed from a Twilight fan fiction originally titled Master of the Universe and published episodically on fan-fiction websites under the pen name "Snowqueen's Icedragon". The piece featured characters named after Stephenie Meyer's characters in Twilight, Edward Cullen and Bella Swan. After comments concerning the sexual nature of the material, James removed the story from the fan-fiction websites and published it on her own website, FiftyShades.com. Later she rewrote Master of the Universe as an original piece, with the principal characters renamed Christian Grey and Anastasia Steele and removed it from her website prior to publication.[6] Meyer commented on the series, saying "that's really not my genre, not my thing... Good on her—she's doing well. That's great!" "
If you would like more proof I would gladly post the first paragraph of the first chapters of each story just to show you how 80-89% of the fanfiction was just copy and pasted.
Delia wrote: "TheFeelsAreOnTheFloor wrote: "50 shades was based off of Twilight so...."50 Shades was NOT based off of the Twilight books. 50 Shades is an S/M book, Twilight was a Vampire book two totally diff..."
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Sh...
I think people are entitled to dislike books just as much as anything else in life... the thing is, something must have attracted you to the books in the first place? Maybe the dislike of the filmsn may affect peoples opinion?? Personally as I've said a while ago in this conversation, I think she did a decent job overall and i like the films too :) I find the phrase 'you can't please everyone' appropriate in these forums... you win some, you lose some
Mickey wrote: "I'd say that you have more to contribute to that group than to this one. Being a hater and spending your time as a hater orientates you to ultimately being less nuanced than you would be otherwise. You have to know that your views of Twilight are shallow and snarky and that your views of fans of Twilight are silly. Spending your time patting yourself on the back because you don't like a book and vilifying those that do is wasted time. It's less than wasted time; it's actually feeding into your natural propensity for arrogance. "Well, it's hard for me to see my views as shallow, because it's not like YOU have provided ANY argument in favor of SM's writing, have you?
Could you please explain how exactly Bella and Edward aren't shallow, one dimensional characters? Or how SM's plot isn't predictable? Or how her sentences aren't repeatable? Or how she doesn't use deus ex machina?
Zoran wrote: "Well, it's hard for me to see my views as shallow, because it's not like YOU have provided ANY argument in favor of SM's writing, have you?"But the purpose of this thread is for you to convince us, isn't it? So far, I'm not persuaded, particularly since you start out by making erroneous assumptions about fans (like we don't care for quality or that we're all genre readers). How does that not make you sound like you don't know what you're talking about?
Mickey wrote: "But the purpose of this thread is for you..."Nope, it's not. It's an open question. Is Stephenie a bad writer? I said that she is, and I have also mentioned her writing flaws.
So, do you have any arguments? Or you just like to troll?
Read the first post, Zoran, and present your arguments. Ball's still in your court. Persuade me that Meyer is a bad writer. That's the challenge.
Mickey wrote: "Read the first post, Zoran, and present your arguments. Ball's still in your court. Persuade me that Meyer is a bad writer. That's the challenge."
LOL you are very entertaining :-)))
I don't see a challenge. I have stated her flaws, read the discussion and you might find it.
Persuade you? There are people who still refuse to accept that the Earth is not flat. Am I to persuade them? I don't think so.
But If you had any arguments, I might be interested in reading them.
wow Zoran, I've just seen that you live in Croatia.
"Stating" flaws is different than proving them. If you think she's a bad writer, than prove your case. I have no idea why that's such a problem for you unless you just want to concede that your views of Twilight are shallow. You obviously haven't quoted the books or made a case, the only thing you've done is say it's so. We're determining the depth of your Twilight knowledge. Dazzle me. I'm giving you the floor, Zoran. You obviously think you have a better perspective on literature and Twilight than I do, and I want to see what you've got.
Mickey wrote: ""Stating" flaws is different than proving them. If you think she's a bad writer, than prove your case. I have no idea why that's such a problem for you unless you just want to concede that your vie..."Oh my god! will you give it up woman! As he said he's already stated them. Why do you have to find an argument in every single thread?
Eva wrote: "wow Zoran, I've just seen that you live in Croatia."And I've seen that you live in Spain :-)) I've met a spanish poet/writer this summer, his name is Joan Todó Cortiella. He was staying in my city. Do you know of him?
Mickey wrote: "We're determining the depth of your Twilight knowledge"Oh please, keep determinig. All of you. :-)))
Eva wrote: "As he said he's already stated them."He hasn't made a case for them, though. That's what I'm waiting for him to do. (Didn't I clarify that in my last post?...)
Zoran wrote: "Eva wrote: "wow Zoran, I've just seen that you live in Croatia."And I've seen that you live in Spain :-)) I've met a spanish poet/writer this summer, his name is Joan Todó Cortiella. He was stayi..."
unfortunatly, no I haven't met him; never heard of him actually. I find it really hard; believe it or not, to read books in my own language.
Mickey wrote: "Eva wrote: "As he said he's already stated them."He hasn't made a case for them, though. That's what I'm waiting for him to do. (Didn't I clarify that in my last post?...)"
I think it will be best to ignore you since you are only listening to your own words.
I liked Twilight but I didn't think it was particularly well written. I think the Mary Sue criticisms are valid ones. Other than that, I think my issues are probably minor compared to others, though. I thought some of the writing was "hokey" for lack of a better word. There were some things that the characters say that had me thinking "Ok, a typical teen probably wouldn't say that this way." I don't think that she always got the "teen voice" quite right. That's what I thought....but millions of teens seem to like it so that makes me wonder whether I am actually right about that particular criticism, though. Personally, I think I am and that maybe young readers are more willing to accept more purple prose in a book that they really love.
Eva wrote: "I find it really hard; believe it or not, to read books in my own language."How comes? Many people in Croatia think that your language is beautiful.
Zoran wrote: "Eva wrote: "I find it really hard; believe it or not, to read books in my own language."How comes? Many people in Croatia think that your language is beautiful."
In a way I think the spanish writers use a lot of big words that live you looing at a dictionary most of the time and I end losing interest, as well books that have been traslated into spanish seem to lose the writing style.
and as people say, the grass is greener in the other side..
OME she is AMAZING hands down what are you on about child?
Eva wrote: "and as people say, the grass is greener in the other side.. "I think we have something like that going on here in Croatia, with our readers :-)
Little Miss ♥ Breaker wrote: "She's not, just take The Host for example. I think people just don't like Twilight."I agree. Some people just hate on Twilight because it's extremely popular. Personally, I really enjoyed the series.
Bookworm wrote: "Some people just hate on Twilight because it's extremely popular."Yup, but also because it is badly written. "Song of Ice and Fire" is quite popular right now, but there aren't many haters. Because it is very well written.
On the other hand, "50 Shades..." gets a lot of scorn because it is extremely popular AND lousy written... much like "Twilight" ;-)
I'm waiting, Zoran... Saying over and over again that it's badly written isn't really stating a case.
Mickey wrote: "I'm waiting, Zoran... Saying over and over again that it's badly written isn't really stating a case."Well, I even gave you a link to Mary Sue article so you can read what is wrong with "Twilight" characters.
But if you prefere, just keep waiting ;-)
Zoran wrote: "Well, I even gave you a link to Mary Sue article so you can read what is wrong with "Twilight" characters."You gave the link without any analysis of why it fits Twilight or any Twilight character (although later made some snide remarks about Edward, although who knows if these are connected?).
There are several things in the link that are problematic for any character in Twilight. You need to make your case in a way to show how this would still apply.
So far, I'm not impressed with your skills.
And I do have a suspicion that I will keep waiting. You are the one claiming that Meyer being a bad writer was "a fact". Most people (even those who don't like it) acknowledge that it's a subjective matter.
I think Stephanie is an amazing writer! I mean, People can say they don't like the books, that's they're opinion. But the storyline doesn't make her a good/bad author. People are only saying that because maybe they don't like love triangles, or they are mad that vampires sparkle or anything else, but she made this whole thing up, which is amazing to me and she definently has some serious talent.
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I don't think that love isn't valuable issue, but I do claim that Mayer's writing is so bad, that the only satisfaction the reader could possibly get from it, is dreaming of Prince Charming.
Because that's the greatest problem with her Edward character. He is perfect, and that makes him good Prince charming fantasy, but on the other hand the fact that he is perfect makes him an awful book character, because he is Mary Sue, he has no depth and he is a clear sign of a bad writer at work.
Also, I don't think that all romances are badly written by default, but I do think that the huge success of books such as "Twilight" or "50 Shades of Gray" happened only because most of their readers weren't interested in the quality of writing. They just wanted that what the book was about, and didn't care how it was written.