Moby Dick
discussion
What is it about?
A captain who was severely injured by the White Whale goes on a looong hunt to avenge his injury. The vast majority of the book is descriptions and details of whaling, ships, characters and religious commentary. It is a slug but some of the best writing I have encountered. I did read it serially- chapter or two a day and that made it far more enjoyable.
There is currently a discussion on the "Classics and the Western Canon" board here on Goodreads.
Yeah, some of the writing is good, but I did not like how the story was constantly being interrupted to talk about whale science and such. :( Plus, the end was a bit... well, I suppose that'd be too much info.
This is a textbook for apprentice whalers that is annoyingly and continually interrupted by a story which expands on the author's ideas about revenge and religion.
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "This is a textbook for apprentice whalers that is annoyingly and continually interrupted by a story which expands on the author's ideas about revenge and religion."AHAHAHAHA! Man... I never looked at it that way before. *snicker*
it appears that in the printing process a technical volume on whaling got bound up inside an engaging story of obsession on the high seas. For some reason the error went unseen until several thousand copies had been printed. The printers decided to send it out anyhow and the public (not wishing to seem foolish by 'not getting it') declared it to be genius... so they went on printing them.Consider it this way. For the price of one book you get a great story and a very handy tome on whaling that will serve you well should you ever fall through a worm-hole in the time-space contiuum onto the deck of an 1840's whaler.
Mark wrote: "...a very handy tome on whaling that will serve you well should you ever fall through a worm-hole in the time-space contiuum onto the deck of an 1840's whaler..."Or if they ever start whale farming and it becomes an attractive career choice...you know...when the oil runs out and we have to get it from whales again...
Melville is our (U.S.) first Modern writer. Our very first.
It's an allegory for an America on the precipice of civil war. Melville was also writing just after peak (whale) oil, an industry that America dominated and was beginning to wane. In short, it captures a nation on the brink in many many ways. Admittedly, it is at times plodding in it's descriptions, but those same descriptions are invaluable, especially since a true study of the fishery hadn't really been written before.
Barry the Scrivener is so much more entertaining.
Or, one could simply see it as a tale of relentless and conceited man pridefully pitting himself against an equally relentless but less flawed natural world personified by the whale. We can get plenty out of it just thinking of it in those simple terms.I've always felt the beauty of great writing is that it can stand on many different levels and mean something to the reader.
This 'classic' is wayyy overrated in my opinion.
Dan wrote: "It's an allegory for an America on the precipice of civil war. Melville was also writing just after peak (whale) oil, an industry that America dominated and was beginning to wane. In short, it capt..."To say it is "at times a bit plodding in its descriptions" is like saying Antarctica is at times a bit cold. What is it about? It is about wanting to stick a fork in your eyes so you won't be able to read any more. I read this because I love books, so it kind of felt like I should be able to say that I read it. I have never been so happy to close the back cover of a book. Pure torture. Yes, there is a great story in there. It could have been told effectively in 20 pages.
If I ever need to write a report about whaling, I know where to look.
This novel is about obsession and revenge, and the folly of them both. Great book, if not a bit overboard in detail about the whaling industry.
I tried reading MOBY DICK when I was young and couldn't finish it. I picked it up in my forties and couldn't put it down. Some books that are required reading in high school, or college, often have a reader that hasn't had the life experience to comprehend the deeper meanings.MOBY DICK, to me, is about human arrogance. It is about a man that cannot face his immortality. MOBY DICK is the force of nature that we can try to fight, but we will never beat. It is witnessed by someone that is contemplating his mortality.
The fact that this is required reading at such an early age, probably ruins it for a lot of people. I picked it up in my late-twenties and found it to be riveting. When I was younger I hated it. For me the details of the whaling industry only pulled me further into the book. I found the details to be a nice break from such a heavily layered story. It pulls your brain into low-level details while your higher brain functions can ponder the big picture.
Excellent comment Andre. I also loved that Melville would discuss the anatomy of a whale, and move from physical features to philosophy, for example how whales have eyes on opposite sides of their head. After writing about this he later asks,something like, if they could comprehend two different images at once, could they also comprehend two different thoughts at once?
Joe wrote: "Some books that are required reading in high school, or college, often have a reader that hasn't had the life experience to comprehend the deeper meanings..."Aye, never got why schools did that.
Got loaded with Shakespeare at the school and didn't get most of it. Now it's smashing...
Sure you can regurgitate the facts from notes in an exam, but otherwise it's all pish when you'd rather be outside up to mischief...
However, once you're older and wiser (or still younger, but having had an "interesting" life) the light goes on and you get a whole bunch of it...same with all art...the more you bring to the table, the better you eat.
☞ Old-Barbarossa, I did the same with Shakespeare. I remember feigning my understanding of Romeo and Juliet in 7th Grade. Later in life after living on my own in Europe for a year, challenging my University professor over the possible ages Mercutio could be, based on what his differences are with Romeo on Love. For a long time I gave up on my intellect because of this way of being taught.
Tom wrote: "The only possible way to depict what was a brutal, lengthy expedition is with a brutal, lengthy book."A great observation Tom! I just now saw this. Very perceptive.
The book is an enormous history of all the grand passions of humanity since written story telling and a resounding conclusion of while these passions, based on human emotion, ambition and ever escalating improvement of science and technology, can be and are rendered futile by things bigger than our culture, wherever in the world we come from.
i read "in the heart of the sea" first, and that really had comparitively more technical whaling info. to me they were both gripping. one of the things that surprised me about MD was that chapter 3 and chapter 33 were both laugh-out-loud funny. they made the whole thing so much more real.
William wrote: "Melville is our (U.S.) first Modern writer. Our very first."Yeah, except for James Fenimore Cooper and Edgar Alan Poe. Maybe others.
Basically, in this book Melviile was just saying 'be yourself'.
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "This is a textbook for apprentice whalers that is annoyingly and continually interrupted by a story which expands on the author's ideas about revenge and religion."I Love it! I've only ever managed to get about halfway through the book, but now I'm going to have to try to tackle it again.
I don't believe James Fenimore Cooper was the "first" American writer. He was writing from a British style. ALL American literature begins with Mark Twain.
Larry wrote: "I don't believe James Fenimore Cooper was the "first" American writer. He was writing from a British style. ALL American literature begins with Mark Twain."Washington Irving ,Poe??
Buzz wrote: "Larry wrote: "I don't believe James Fenimore Cooper was the "first" American writer. He was writing from a British style. ALL American literature begins with Mark Twain."Washington Irving ,Poe ??" to name a few where pretty good.But its and interesting pt about pre Civil War writers.Remember everything was print. Ambrose Bierce ! .
I hate this book! But that's because I was forced to read it in two weeks in college, and I did! I even read all the footnotes in my edition, because I didn't get certain parts unless I read them. And at times the footnotes took up more of the page than the actual text! Maybe if I had taken my time reading it I wouldn't feel this violent when Moby Dick is mentioned. Nevertheless, as much anger as I feel towards this book, Melville is a genius.
Its about the whaling industry and being obsessed to the point "of no return"
Larry wrote: "I don't believe James Fenimore Cooper was the "first" American writer. He was writing from a British style. ALL American literature begins with Mark Twain."Larry, it matters not whether you or I believe it. Google his name and the first page of references, including major American universities, such as the University of Wisconsin pronounce Cooper as "America's first successful popular novelist."
However, I'll personally disagree with all the others and call Thomas Jefferson the first American writer. You may have heard of his most famous work. It starts: "When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands..." It is of course the Declaration of Independence, perhaps the most important single document in human history. It changed the world.
While it admittedly was written in a "British Style" that would be very dangerous ground for anyone to accuse Jefferson of being a British writer. :-)
Buzz wrote: "Buzz wrote: "Larry wrote: "I don't believe James Fenimore Cooper was the "first" American writer. He was writing from a British style. ALL American literature begins with Mark Twain."Washington I..."
What?
Edgar Allen Poe ,Washington Irving, Nathaniel Hawthorne, . Ambrose Bierce who was Twains contemporary was a terrific if dark writer.
in fact at the time of the civil war he was more read than Twain.
I disagree with your statement .I also think Twain is a truly great force in american writing "Life on the Mississippi"is a masterpiece along with Tom and Huck.
Buzz wrote: "Edgar Allen Poe ,Washington Irving, Nathaniel Hawthorne, . Ambrose Bierce who was Twains contemporary was a terrific if dark writer.
in fact at the time of the civil war he was more read than Twa..."
Assume you mean Samuel Clemens. Never said he wasn't. But Cooper was earlier. Also, as I pointed out, Jefferson could be argued as the best - certainly the most widely read. :-)
"Moby Dick" is about meglomania, arrogance, blind pursuit of commercial gain, hubris and monomania, which are traits that we've seen so little of in the governance of our great Republic.
Like it or not, I had to WADE through the book. It was worth it for the moments of brilliance but I probably will not be able to re-read it. The weather report? Long and boring with patches of brilliant writing.
The best writing always seems to challenge its readers. If a novel doesn't challenge you as a reader, then odds are it's beneath you and you won't learn much of enduring value from the reading. Immortal genius works stay with you a lifetime and "Moby Dick" is a masterpiece so I'm glad you made it through.
That's why I chose to read it and also why I chose to finish it.
Most of the people who are discussing this on this board seem to be looking at it through the prism of the 21st century's attitude, which is get to the story and not too many detours. Melville had an entirely different audience, one without a whole lot of alternatives in entertainment. In that context, Moby Dick is revolutionary -- yes, it takes a lot of detours, and, no, I didn't read through the chapter on whales. But no American book looks harder at the totality of the American experience in the 19th century, not, great as they are, Hawthorne, Poe, or even Whitman. Moby Dick takes on who Americans were at the time -- the restless expansion (whatever the cost to others), the beliefs, larger society and the way the individual struggles against it. And of course, there is the splendid writing and a lot of humor -- Ishmael's shock at first seeing Queequeg is one of my favorite moments. My one objection to the book is that it's a man's world, which women barely enter. I have always believed that we can't fully understand this nation of ours until we understand where we've been. And Melville is where we've been.
Mark wrote: "it appears that in the printing process a technical volume on whaling got bound up inside an engaging story of obsession on the high seas. For some reason the error went unseen until several thousa..."Brilliant! I agree 100%.
Pamela wrote: "Mark wrote: "it appears that in the printing process a technical volume on whaling got bound up inside an engaging story of obsession on the high seas. For some reason the error went unseen until s..."I agree with Mark. I especially liked his comment, "the public (not wishing to seem foolish by 'not getting it') declared it to be genius... so they went on printing them." Most people can't explain why it is "genius."
The content about the day-to-day on the Pequod is an integral part of Melville's project. A dry, academic way to put it is that early American Romantics--including Melville--saw their work as a means to record things of historical importance for posterity. As many of you put it, he succeeds wildly in that effort, as you know how life on a whaling ship in that period was despite a remove of two centuries.My own interpretation of why he does it, though, is to make it a truly immersive experience for the reader. Moby-Dick or, The Whale is, along with The Scarlet Letter, one of the two great psychological works of literature in this period of American literature. I think Melville wants you to be invested in the stakes of the story. He wants you to feel like a member of the Pequod and to see the narrative unfold from that POV.
As for the narrative itself, like any great work, the meaning of the story is open to a wide range of interpretations, depending on what you choose to attend to in the story. If you attend merely to the surface level, it's a cautionary tale of obsession. However, there are great questions to explore if you pay close attention.
The book opens with Ishmael informing us that the need to escape from land-based society compels him to go out to sea. This compulsion brings him onboard the doomed Pequod. Is Melville trying to tell us something about society, i.e. a "the fault lies not within the stars but within ourselves" kind of storyline? How might the allusions to Jonah and other religious themes and subtext play into that?
What of the whale itself? What is it a stand-in for? What is Ahab really struggling with? Is he made at nature? Does the whale's whiteness and dealing of injury to him nod to the pall of death, making this a story about the captain's refusal to accept his own mortality? Is it a cautionary tale of man versus nature? Does the whiteness of the creature instead mean to connote the divine? Is Ahab mad at God? All these readings and more fit into Starbuck's charge that Ahab's obsession is a mad one because the object he is so invested in is utterly indifferent to him.
Larry M, yes, I'm familiar with Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence, thank you.
As far as its initial reception goes, Moby Dick did very poorly. Critics panned it. It didn't sell. In fact, after his first two books, the now widely unread TYPEE and OMOO, Melville sold very few books in his lifetime. His classic BILLY BUDD was found in manuscript form in a desk drawer after his death. This is all to say that it wasn't until the 20th-century that Melville became appreciated, in large part due to D.H. Lawrence's STUDIES IN CLASSIC AMERICAN LITERATURE. He has been in the canon less than a century.
Melville wrote, "Call me Ishmael. Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off - then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship."Me too! I'm a tall ship sailor in real life, and nobody has said it better. Melville was a sailor, and that is something people forget. It's not that there's anything wrong with life ashore, it's that life at sea is better.
“It isn’t that life ashore is distasteful to me. But life at sea is better.” - Sir Francis Drake
Yes, sir Francis. YES.
“When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.” - Dr. Samuel Johnson
Also true :)
“Sailors, with their built in sense of order, service and discipline, should really be running the world.” - Nicholas Monsarrat
Hey, it's gotta work better than other systems we've tried!
M. Kei, author of The Sallee Rovers
Old-Barbarossa wrote: "This is a textbook for apprentice whalers that is annoyingly and continually interrupted by a story which expands on the author's ideas about revenge and religion."grin ...
I read Moby Dick ruined Melville's writing career. The critics/readers of his time were completely baffled by it. I enjoyed the book, especially the first 100 pages, but I'd recommend that you read only a small passage at a time (it took me a year to read it). As other comments point out, there is amazing detail about whaling and ships and whales but through it, you become very much a part of the expedition.What really struck me about Moby Dick was how modern it was, both in language and structure, which most critics now would call experimental. If you're looking for traditional narration, this isn't for you (or just read until they get on the boat). But if you're looking for great writing and an "experience", you might really like it. Just keep your mind open.
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