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Bryn question:"Are you saying you believe Jesus gave you the Bible to interpret without having any way of knowing who's interpretation is right????"
You still haven't figured out Bryn that God can work through chaos. We are always 3 steps behind God. He's brilliant that way. How did God work through the story of Jezebel? Or Herod? Or Pharoah? Or Saul?
Maybe God's interpretation of the Bible is right? Did God not give some of us the Holy Spirit as guidance? Or is that only for the Pope and Catholic officials?
Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
And that is how we are to function. Examine the scriptures for ourselves to see if these things are so.
Do you not think God is capable of getting his message any farther than the Catholic Church Bryn? The disciples traveled all over the World - Christianity would have been fine without Constantine and the Catholics.
You seem to think we have only the Catholics to thank for our Bible. Maybe you should look a little more carefully at the history of the Bible itself. Especially up to A.D. 300.
1 Kings 19
14He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”
15The Lord said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. 18Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him.”
Never under estimate God to get the job done only ONE way. :D
Notice how I said; "and i'm confident, based on the Word of God."Did you see that part C.J.? You probably overlooked it. Understandable.
Christianity has FAITH for a reason. Do you know why C.J.?
Islam claims to have some grading curve that is impossible to keep track of. The Bible is very clear about forgiveness, grace and mercy. The problem is when people lie to themselves.
I wrote that "I sure hope so" because I am constantly questioning Christianity. That is the only way to be sure I am not fooling myself and being duped. This is also why I chat with atheists so much - I enjoy their complaints and opinions.
I am not a Christian because of supernatural adventures or warm fuzzy feelings whenever the Holy Spirit is close by. I am trusting God based on clues and good & evil.
My favourite Bible verse:
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
These people actually have to think. :D
Bryn question:"You didn't answer my question curiously...(Are you saying you believe Jesus gave you the Bible to interpret without having any way of knowing who's interpretation is right????)"
What exactly do you think the job of the Holy Spirit is Bryn? Is it not possible that the Holy Spirit is capable of steering us through God's Word?
I wonder if you have replaced the Holy Spirit with the Catholic Church and its politics?
Side question for Bryn:"What does Anathema mean?"
I come across it in a great deal of Catholic statements. And apparently it applies to me quite often. Do you agree with this?
The problem is that I don't know who the elect are? Maybe everyone who ever lived (except 10 people) are the elect?My guess is God knows something I don't. I'm very sure he knows a whole lot that I don't. Based on all the verses about LOVE in the Bible I have no problem trusting him to always do the right thing.
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
The problem is many people do not WANT to turn from their ways.
It's not as black and white an issue as you might think.
Hey all. My injured relative is getting better, so I'm back on the thread. Great to see y'all! :D@Rod
I don't want to fight. I'm just saying that I REALLY don't understand how Christians could possibly know where to turn when they are looking how to interpret the Bible (non-Catholics, I mean).
One Church says this, one Chuch says the oposite, on every issue you can find. Every one claims to be right, everyone claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit, everyone claims to be God's manifestation of working through chaos. If I wasn't Catholic, I wouldn't know where to turn, much less what books even belonged in the Bible! If my Bible is my only authority, it can't tell me what books belong. I supose I could accept the Gospels, which I don't believe were ever rejected. But The Bible is a lot more than the Gospels.
Of course God's interpretation is right. It's finding (and more than that agreeing) on who is teaching God's interpretation that would seem problematic for non-Catholics.
Can God get His message farther than the Church? Well for me that's an odd question, since I believe God established the Church TO SPREAD His message. No, I dont believe Constantine is necessary, nor no any Catholic who claims he was. Furthermore, without the Church, yes you can spread God's word, but you also will spread error. Because Christians can't agree. We teach oposing things, so inevitably, some one is teaching error.
Rod wrote: "Side question for Bryn:"What does Anathema mean?"
I come across it in a great deal of Catholic statements. And apparently it applies to me quite often. Do you agree with this?"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455...
Do I think you are anethema? NO.
Rod wrote: "Bryn question:"You didn't answer my question curiously...(Are you saying you believe Jesus gave you the Bible to interpret without having any way of knowing who's interpretation is right????)"
Wh..."
The Holy Spirit is the sould of the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ. He sanctifies it, and members recieve grace from Him. Jesus sent Him to the Church on Pentecost. Non-Catholics can recieve the Holy Spirit the same way Catholics can (prayer, sacraments, etc.) if they choose to, but many Protestant reject the Holy Spirit by rejecting many of the ways He comes to us, like the Sacrament of Confirmation.
Good to see you back Bryn. Lots of fun things to chat about. I'm just finishing a book called The Roman Catholic Controversy by James R. White. (very dangerous stuff).Do you not think the Holy Spirit talks to us individually and guides us to the truth? Does it not make sense that so many religious people are confused because they just don't have the Holy Spirit? And i'm not talking about the charismatic holy spirit foolishness - I mean the teacher sent from God.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
All we need is a good Bible and the Holy Spirit. Fellowship with Christians is wonderful too! :D
Bryn wrote: "Hey all. My injured relative is getting better, so I'm back on the thread. Great to see y'all! :D@Rod
I don't want to fight. I'm just saying that I REALLY don't understand how Christians could p..."
Each of us has to make up our own mind about what we believe is the truth. Read Romans. There are some great passages in there that are very applicable to this discussion.
We need to stop getting lost in all the minute details. That is the kind of thing the Pharisees did. They were more interested in keeping the smallest letter of the law than in actually helping someone be kind or in helping someone find God.
Each of us need to read the Bible and pray to God, asking for guidance on what is right and wrong. No one else can tell me what is written on my heart. Is it good to talk to others about it? I believe it is and I believe that is very helpful and God uses that to help all of us learn. Ultimately it is up to each of us to make up our own minds. When we died God will be asking me about my actions and about what I believe, not what the Pope or someone else said people should believe. God is not petty.
@Rod“Good to see you back Bryn. Lots of fun things to chat about. I'm just finishing a book called The Roman Catholic Controversy by James R. White. (very dangerous stuff).”
Thanks Rod. It’s great to be back. :D Sounds like a book to make a thread on. I can’t wait!
“Do you not think the Holy Spirit talks to us individually and guides us to the truth? Does it not make sense that so many religious people are confused because they just don't have the Holy Spirit? And i'm not talking about the charismatic holy spirit foolishness - I mean the teacher sent from God.”
I think an example is called for to illustrate my point.
3 friends, Kelly, Tye, and May are all devout Christians who believe the Bible is the sole authority (apart from God). They believe the Holy Spirit will guide us to truth if we trust Him.
When searching for what God thought about abortion, each one consulted their Bibles, and prayerfully and sincerely asked the Holy Spirit to guide them to truth.
Kelly claims the Holy Spirit told her that abortion is always wrong, pointing to Exodus 20:13.
May claims the Holy Spirit told her all abortions are fine, because she says the soul does not enter the body until the first breath, pointing to Genesis 2:7.
Tye claims the Holy Spirit told him that abortion is fine for health reasons, pointing to Proverbs 24:11, claiming abortions in this case are a form of self defense.
Adam, another friend, but an agnostic, ask the three of them what Christians believe about abortion. They explain Christians think diferent things, their own individual opinions, and why they hold them.
Adam responds, “Hey, it’s great religion has worked out so well for you guys, but face it, how do you know you are right. Because of two of you three have to be wrong, assuming God exists.”
Kelly explains the Holy Spirit guides Christians to truth. May explains God is the Good Shepard, leading his sheep who have faith in Him. Tye explains Adam should try reading the Bible for himself to see what it’s all about, which happens to be a historically acurate document.
Adam says, “Ok, so maybe all that could be true. None of that tells me--or you--which of you three are wrong. That’s why I’m not Christian. You all have the same God, authority, and method of seeking truth, and you do so with sincerity. Yet it doesn’t work. The Spirit misled 2 of you 3 on this, clearly.”
May responds that the Spirit gives one message, that many people choose to ignore, and then claim their beliefs were inspired by the Holy Spirit, when they really weren’t.
Adam gives her an incredulous look. “The three of you have devoted your lives to Christ. You’re all the real deal. You go to Church, give up things you’d enjoy because the Church says no, and do all sorts of things in obedience to God’s laws. I don’t believe one of you knowingly ignored what you felt God was telling you. Of course, it’s possible you can’t differentiate between God’s voice and your own logic. Which poses another problem. If you can’t hear God when He talks to you, again, you’re faced with not knowing what God teaches about things like abortion.”
So, yeah I believe the Holy Spirit can and does lead us to truth, but I don't think individual Bible interpretation is enough, for reasons the above example demonstartes. Furthermore, I belive that relying on individual Bible interpretation alone does not provide for us everuthing God wants us to know, and provides none of the gifts God wants us to have, aprart from the Bible, like the Sacrarmetns, which require the Church.
Wow, that was a great example Bryn. There's still alot of problems with your thoughts:Bryn's cast of characters: "3 friends, Kelly, Tye, and May are all devout Christians..."
How do you know they are devout Christians? Cause they go to Church and play with religion? What if Kelly is a Mormon, Tye is a J.W., and May is a Branch Davidian? That would mean they all claim to love God and trust his Word - but they would all be wrong.
If you say an Organization is correct instead (like the Vatican), I would have to say what about a God ordained organization (says them?)like the Mormon Senate in Utah, Or the Watchtower office in the Bronx? Why is an organization all of a sudden more Holy Spirit filled than a person? Even the Catholic Church has numerous theological disagreements and randomly disposes and toys with old creeds. They are not sure of their once and for all truth either.
The Holy Spirit does not force us to believe the truth, it teaches and guides us to it individually. But even Christians want their own will more than that of God's. So confusion will indeed set in. But God can work through this.
We are all back at trying to properly understand God's Word individually. But we must be careful - our heart may lie to us.
Good post, Byrn. Rod just can't get past the idea that there are no absolutes ... no one "right answer" hidden somewhere in the Bible, no one single Truth pointed out plainly by God.Unfortunately, things just aren't that tidy, so all the fundies who think they're somehow privy to the one right answer will keep dissin' the rest.
The Bible is one single clear truth pointed out plainly by God. The problem is many people just refuse to accept it. :D The challenge is God gave us some grey areas to allow our true hearts to shine through (or condemn us). For instance:
The Bible mentions speaking in tongues very few times - yet people make an entire religion out of this.
The Bible mentions Jesus Mother Mary in only a few books - so people attempt to make an entire religion out of her.
The Bible does not clearly condemn polygamy - so people make an entire religion out of this.
The Bible briefly mentions Peter as the Rock (?) yet people make an entire religion out of this.
And weirdest of all - the Bible mentions God's LOVE - so people ignore the rest of the Bible and attempt to make a religion out of only this.
What I do that seems so strange is attempt to make a religion that agrees with the entire Bible. Every single bit. My right answer is no single one thing or two - it incorporates everything God says throughout the entire Bible.
Thanks J.D.! I try very carefully to be accurate and honest about God's word. It's a relief when others grasp it as we'll. :D Thanks for support.
@ Rod"Wow, that was a great example Bryn."
Thanks. I like it too.
"How do you know they are devout Christians? Cause they go to Church and play with religion? What if Kelly is a Mormon, Tye is a J.W., and May is a Branch Davidian? That would mean they all claim to love God and trust his Word - but they would all be wrong."
Because I created them, :D.
But more than that, my characters represent people I know, and from knowing them, I believe they are devout and sincere. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said my characters were "who believe the Bible is the sole authority" I was implying they were Bible Christians. I should have wrote that. But I do believe that there are Mormons, JVs, etc. that sincerely love God, and His word, but simply believe God's word is more than what's in the Bible, or interpret it wrong. Many are born into these faiths, and never get exposed to the truth (because it's forbidden for them to read 'dangerous' literature, and we have to remember that.
"I would have to say what about a God ordained organization (says them?)like the Mormon Senate in Utah, Or the Watchtower office in the Bronx?”
Um, well I’m not familiar with those, but let me tell you why I’m Catholic and not in another organized Church. Simply put, they teach things I believe are unbiblical, and absurd.
For example, Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael the archangel. Also, these organizations were founded by individuals LONG after Jesus’s time, while the Catholic Church was founded by CHRIST, and is the oldest Church of Christians that exists, which backs up our claim. Many other organizations claim the Church corrupted, and was in need of reform. Catholics say: “ the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [church].
“ Even the Catholic Church has numerous theological disagreements and randomly disposes and toys with old creeds. They are not sure of their once and for all truth either.”
What do you mean exactly by “theological disagreements”? We make news creeds sometimes, but the teachings are never changed, even if they are sometimes perfected. We only claim to be infallible on teachings of faith and morals. And we have never changed our teachings regarding faith and morals once. We are perfectly sure about truth, once and for all, regarding everything we need to know to attain salvation, and then some.
“We are all back at trying to properly understand God's Word individually. But we must be careful - our heart may lie to us.”
So let me ask you Rod, what do you believe God teaches about abortion, and how do you know you’re right, and your heart isn’t lying to you?
“The Bible mentions speaking in tongues very few times - yet people make an entire religion out of this.
The Bible mentions Jesus Mother Mary in only a few books - so people attempt to make an entire religion out of her.
The Bible does not clearly condemn polygamy - so people make an entire religion out of this.
The Bible briefly mentions Peter as the Rock (?) yet people make an entire religion out of this.
And weirdest of all - the Bible mentions God's LOVE - so people ignore the rest of the Bible and attempt to make a religion out of only this.”
I see your point, and I’m glad you pointed that out. You’re right, we need to read the WHOLE Bible, and follow every teaching in the Bible. Some denominations fail to do this. Catholics aren’t one of them. In case you’re referring to Catholicism as Mary’s religion, it’s not her religion. We have a high respect for her, because if God can honor her (as he did, obeying her as mother for 30 years) then so should we. I’m guessing you’re calling Catholicism a religion made out of the Pope. Catholicism is in no way a religion focused around the Pope. We are a Church that focus’s on God’s Word in Scripture, that uses the Pope’s infallibility, and God’s work that comes to us through Sacred Tradition, to interpret what God is telling us through the Bible. Catholicim could exist without the Pope. But seeing as Jesus gave us a Pope, and the power Jesus gave Him, we’d be ungrateful idiots to toss aside this gift God gives us.
“The problem is many people just refuse to accept it [Bible]. :D"
You’re right. However, Catholics who accept the Church’s teachings, and are actively striving towards holiness (IOW, not cafeteria Catholics. I call them heretics, because most are. Catholics for Choice....(shakes head) ), DO accept it fully and often enthusiastically.
"What I do that seems so strange is attempt to make a religion that agrees with the entire Bible.”
It’s not strange at all. Everyone on this thread can see you’re sincere and love God, and thus his word. It’s how God prefers us to serve Him that we can’t agree on :D.
Rod wrote: "I try very carefully to be accurate and honest about God's word. "I just wanted to say, I really admire that. I can tell you're sincere and devout. That's awesome. :D
"Of course my friend, you are one of the few "elected" by God to accept His word."
I sure hope so
(and I'm confident, based on the Word of God.) Heaven won't be a lonely place though. You might even be there C.J.! But not at the rate you are going. But there's still hope. :D