Atheism, Agnosticsism & that kind of stuff

[Ed]

It means that biopoiesis can pop up very quickly. The process by which life and consciousness arises from matter seems to already be programed into our universe - otherwise how could it pop up so quickly? Isnt this also a trait that is found in other forces within the universe? Gravity? Magnetic attraction? Don't these things naturally show themselves when the conditions are right?

Gary wrote: Besides we know that abiogenesis occurred quite quickly after the Earth cooled enough to allow it. So therefore it may be so likely that the universe is full of life.


Gary wrote:Didn't you elsewhere posit the idea that since particles were "aware" of each other via electromagnetic force and similar that they therefore were conscious of each other?

I said that particles, etc are aware of other matter. I did not say that an inanimate object such as the house that Robb was referring to has consciousness.

[Gary]

Ed Wagemann wrote: "It means that biopoiesis can pop up very quickly. The process by which life and consciousness arises from matter seems to already be programed into our universe - otherwise how could it pop up so quickly?"

It didn't. Life did. However for 3 billion years it didn't move beyond a relatively simple set of creatures with simple chemical processes. It took around 500 million years for that to flourish and out of them conscious life has only been around for probably less than 2 million.

And it took 10 billion years for stars to cook enough elements to form viable planets.

So life appeared quickly on an appropriate world after enough of the universe had evolved. Again this points to consciousness being an eventual product that is possible within the universe, not an intrinsic part of its make up.

Ed Wagemann wrote: " Isnt this also a trait that is found in other forces within the universe? Gravity? Magnetic attraction? Don't these things naturally show themselves when the conditions are right?"

No, they have been around in their current form for 99.9999% of the universes lifetime and the first second they may have been muddled together.

Ed Wagemann wrote: "I said that particles, etc are aware of other matter. I did not say that an inanimate object such as the house that Robb was referring to has consciousness. "

So a particle is, the universe is, certain beings are, but a house isn't?

A particle isn't any more "aware" of another particle than a stone is aware of a stone. Current theory suggests that particles transfer the information of forces by exchange. Aware implies the ability to detect and register the existence of another thing, not simply be effected by it.

[Ed]

Gary wrote:So life appeared quickly on an appropriate world after enough of the universe had evolved. Again this points to consciousness being an eventual product that is possible within the universe, not an intrinsic part of its make up.

The timeliness of it doesnt really matter though because the time it takes is dependent on the conditions. For instance if you have two magnets on opposite sides of the universe that are continually growing in strength, it is going to take millions or billions of years for their magnetism to finally manifest itself in the form of them connecting to each other. The time it take for magnetism to be percieved is reliant on the condidtions. Same goes for the time it takes consciousness to be percieved. Theoretically there could be conditions in which conscoiusness is able to pop up in a matter of a few "Earth" seconds - or even in the time it takes two magnets to attract to one another.

---
Gary wrote: Current theory suggests that particles transfer the information of forces by exchange.

Which means that they must have some way of recieving and sending this information, doesn't it?

---
Gary wrote:So a particle is, the universe is, certain beings are, but a house isn't?

Right, the particles that make up the house have awareness of other particles that are on their atomic level. The house itself, as an entity, does not have that awareness.