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Infinite Jest
Infinite Jest - Spine 2012
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Discussion - Week Four - Infinite Jest - Page 299 - 398 (418)
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Several scenes that made me stop and ponder in the reading:Hal tells Orin he discovered Himself’s exploded head in the microwave along with discussion of Deconstruction vs. reconstruction. And Hal’s first thought in entering suicide scene was “That something smelled delicious.”
Lyle saying “Do not underestimate objects. The world is mostly made up of objects.”
Narrator asking on page 343 during Boston AA meeting “how do trite things get to trite?”
Joelle has shown up (alive!) at Ennet House on page 361. She’s pumped up with Inderal and nitro after the Final Debauch/OD. She’s sexy, veiled, desiccated. I’ve noticed that word “desiccated” many times in the novel now in describing a character. Considering a lot of the characters are trying to “dry out” the word is striking.
I could not read the Eschaton scene closely. Very boring. Although when it degenerates into a kind of Lord of the Flies real world war, it was funny and meaningful.
I notice Erdely, who had an early scene in the novel waiting for a fifth of a kilo of pot and is, in fact, addicted to pot, shows up at Ennet House on page 360. And Gately is beginning to interact with him and that both Erdely and Gately are attracted to Joelle.
Mod
Hal tells Orin he discovered Himself’s exploded head in the microwave along with discussion of Deconstruction vs. reconstruction. And Ha..."
The Eschaton scene with Pemulis rabid and hopping up down mad about what is the map and what is the territory is just too funny. It's like some kind of scholarly debate that builds and builds until the first punch is thrown and the animal within debunks all theories. Magnificent stuff!!
I enjoyed the Eschaton scene as well. Very funny. Have you guys seen this? If not, I think you'll like it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpfK7...
Mod
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpfK7..."
Very well done! I watched this earlier this year, but long before I started IJ, so no context to understand.
I'd never heard it before-loved it.
Phil wrote: "Several scenes that made me stop and ponder in the reading:Hal tells Orin he discovered Himself’s exploded head in the microwave along with discussion of Deconstruction vs. reconstruction. And Ha..."
Really appreciate the connection with desicated and dried out & the reappearance of the word/theme.
Moments like these are part of why I like a good group read. Thanks.
Another thing that started more obsessions:Mario
He was "a surprise." “Incomplete gestation and arachnoidal birth." Teeth all bicuspid. Wears a Bolex H64 head mounted camera. The camera freaks me out.
yet he's not retarded (!), just slower.
So did Himself actually die, or just stage the suicide? OR is Hal completely lying to Orin about the death scene, as he tells us directly he's lied about plenty that he's told his brother on the telephone? Any takers?
At this point I don't see this "reveal." but it's something to consider though I think it would make the book dishonest. Of course, it's not a mystery so Wallace can do whatever he wants.In the first 400 pages the suicide is remembered by a few others. Joelle on page 230 says "how much must a person want out, to put his head in a microwave oven?"
page 248 orin says "I think it came out generally at the funeral." (of course, he didn't attend so how..)
For some reason, hal is lying about which foot he's cutting nails during that conversation.
page 314 third peson narrator says "Mario...carried the later Incandenza's film adn lenses..."
a footnote 24 mentions "posthumous provisions in his will."
Also--Helen asked Orin about his dad's suicide which prompted the call to Hal. Isn't she like the government and would know (check with the Boston police department)
I do think it seems there's something suspicious with Moms, CT, and Himself (and Mario.) All of them are shadowy characters since i think there's been little or none pov with them.
I kept thinking about the Eshaton game in comparison to this week's endnote, i.e. the conversation between Hal and Orin about radical French Canadian politics and one that becomes so deep and authoritative it becomes its own reason to be an endnote. In particular, Pemulis becoming irate and animated over the deepness to such a degree he felt to me like he was perhaps strangely aware of being trapped in an endnote. Which made his reaction at its end hilarious and reminded me of this "experimental film":http://youtu.be/cH6i2Z6mTRE
Although I don't think DFW wanted you to think about this film, it does serve to mention that Pemulis is described as being like a cartoon character during his reaction to real life butting up against the game world of Eshaton. It's funny that Pemulis, quickly becoming one of my favorite characters I might add, feels that he doesn't think real world can affect game world scenario, since it would seem to me to be false since real world conditions and entropy constantly wreak havoc on systems people setup to control or define reality. Also it may serve to point out that the very scenario they are rehearsing can ONLY be looked at theoretically.
Mod
Ceci n'est pas une pipe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mag...
a whole discussion of general semantics wrapped up in a game of Eschaton. No wonder Pemulis was jumping up and down... of course, there was also the Bob Hope in effect...
The Daffy Duck was quite funny. I don't think I saw that as a child, or maybe I don't remember.
Jennifer wrote: "So did Himself actually die, or just stage the suicide? OR is Hal completely lying to Orin about the death scene, as he tells us directly he's lied about plenty that he's told his brother on the te..."It's been some time since I've read IJ, and I've been finding it difficult to do a reread now, due to be currently deep into "Under the Volcano," but I do believe the suicide was staged. And I would disagree that you couldn't classify IJ as a mystery. It's everything, really. DFW manages to create a universe in this book.
But doesn't Himself discover the Moms' dalliances and connection to the Quebecois Separatists (and I do believe her trysts were tied to the movement.) I believe this was brought out in the Professional Conversationalist scene, where he is interrogating Hal about this.
But, like I said, it's been a while since I've read it, so it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. ;)
Mod
As others mentioned above, Himself is dead... unless it's a widespread conspiracy and he's on that island with Elvis and Jim Morrison...
As a cross between an "insomniac, an unwilling agnostic, and dyslexix," (p. 41), I'll be torturing myself mentally over the question of whether or not there's a dog--or a suicide. If indeed, the suicide was staged, I still need to see more clues. But if you've read the book and remember that it was--so be it. I just meant Wallace was not P.D. James.
Not remembering that it was. Pure conjecture on my part. There's probably an infinite number of interpretations with respect to this book. As it should be.
Jim wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "So did Himself actually die, or just stage the suicide? OR is Hal completely lying to Orin about the death scene, as he tells us directly he's lied about plenty that he's told his ..."I think he's dead, but the fact that Hal has some kind of vision of digging up Himself's head in the graveyard with Big Don Gately and John Wayne at the beginning of the book casts into doubt for me that the head was exploded in the microwave. Supposedly the master tapes are buried with Jim--I have always had a queer idea that they are somehow in his head (or are his head?), although I am not sure there's textual backup for that theory.
Mod
Right, the dream. Well, IF the master tape is in the coffin and IF Hal really did see Himself's exploded head painting the kitchen walls, maybe it's some kind of subconscious, trauma-induced dream mash-up. I can definitely support that.
I'm halfway through the book and suddenly want to pick up the pace.
Wow, I think I misread jennifer's original comment. I do believe he's dead, but I don't believe he killed himself. It was "staged" to look like a suicide, to cover up the murder. Sorry for the confusion, guys.
Mod
Uh oh! Spoiler alert! Now I want to read even faster!
BTW, after watching the Decemberists video, I've been visualizing a whole series of paintings and drawings of the images I get while reading IJ - Himself packed into the microwave, Otis P. Lord similarly attired with the Eschaton color monitor, Mario with his police lock and lead weight, inclined at 45° like a character from a Bosch painting, Orin flying into the Cardinals' stadium, Lyle licking sweat - the possibilities seem infinite...
Oh no, I’m not giving anything away, Jim. It is never revealed that he was murdered; it’s just a personal theory of mine. I have quite a few regarding this book (maybe I should just probably keep them to myself.) I just know that after reading it, I had more questions than answers about a great number of things. A couple more rereads might clear it up for me. Maybe. There’s also the 400 or so pages that were cut from the book. I happen to live in Austin, where the Harry Ransom Center is, and they have all of DFW’s papers (including the 400 pages that didn’t make the final draft.) I’ve been wanting to get over there and take a look. And you are so right about how visual the book is. Do you think someone would ever have the chutzpah of doing a film version? Probably impossible, but Cloud Atlas…
Mod
No harm, no foul...
The conversation with Orin is pretty awesome though, especially Hal's strategy for dealing with the mandatory grief counseling.
What I'm really looking forward to is finding out how this bright boy ends up speechless in his Arizona admissions interview. I suspect Madame Psychosis may be involved...
Let's hope some future scholar will pull off some kind of Norton Critical Edition deal that includes the extra 400 pages!
I suppose you could make a film version in a Royal Tennenbaum's kind of way, but it would be a pretty long movie.
more random thoughts...A lot of people blow their brains out in this book.
I think a lot of interpretation will have to do with the good old mind/body problem (and Head). Which of course seems to one of the main themes--the relationship between the mind and body in tennis, politics, AA, free will, etc.
a lot of folks have small or rather large or misshapen heads also for what its worth.
During Hal's "hallucination" on page 17 he says they dug up his father's "head."
In hamlet, Yorick is just a skull.
As far as I can tell, Himself's whole head (including skull) exploded (like a "baked potato" without cuts in it fired in the microwave) and only his body without the head was able to fit the casket (footnote 160). Why is he buried in the Mondragon plot in Quebec?
I have to say, this book really freaks me out. I don't know that I want to know more about Wallace and his suicide. I do understand he didn't blow his brains out, which implies he did not "hate" his brain.
Michael wrote: "Oh no, I’m not giving anything away, Jim. It is never revealed that he was murdered; it’s just a personal theory of mine. I have quite a few regarding this book (maybe I should just probably kee..."I'm in Austin too--I went to the HRC for the big reception and reading when they got his stuff, and I saw a few of the pages they had on display, but I haven't had the ovaries to go sit down with his pages yet. I feel like it'd be pretty difficult for me--this book has been a big part of my life for a very long time and I suspect I'll go to pieces.
I dunno, I am *pretty* sure JOI is dead, but sometimes I wonder. Wallace doesn't let you nail down any "objective" narrative reality in this book--like for instance no one will ever adequately prove if Joelle is disfigured or not, no matter how hard they try--so I feel like Himself works according to the same impossible and sublime ambiguity. Which makes sense--he's like Hamlet's ghost. He's there and not there, meaning it doesn't effing matter if he's there or not there--he's *present.*
If the comparisons to Hamlet hold, I think Himself must be dead. IMHO, of course
I'm looking at JOI as certainly dead, whether murder or suicide. However, I always thought of ghosts in reality and in Hamlet as sort of like trauma. And having lost a father not too long ago myself, I can say that even though said paternal figure isn't there, my father was certainly on my mind and more so, more noticeable in my life in ways I never looked at before.
Accidentally posted without finishing my thought, sorry. As I was saying, It seems to me that Hal is kind of going back through those memories of his father as if they were a kind of ghost. What's more the things that come to a head (pun unintended) with this are the thorny things of Himself's fathering and such. At least that's one angle I'm looking at JOI in the novel.Also, I couldn't help but feel a sense of actual voice coming from some of the endnotes that seem particularly JOI focused, such as his filmography. As usual, your mileage may vary.
A couple of people have mentioned the mystery of whether Joelle is disfigured. Is there a reason to think that something happened to her and that is why she wears a veil? When she was introduced as the PGOAT (prettiest girl of all time) there were comments about the disadvantages of being that beautiful. I thought maybe she was wearing the veil to disguise her looks because it was a nuisance being fussed over, and/or it was some kind of political statement in support of the deformed.
Mod
Himself definitely functions as a presence, or ghost, throughout the book. His legacies are his family, ETA, his car rear-view mirrors with the "Things are closer than they seem" message etched in the glass, his addiction to alcohol, the memory of his suicide, and the macguffin of this whole novel - "The Entertainment". The Ennett House residents find jobs at ETA, his family lives and works there, Mario carries on his father's film work, the Quebecois and the OUS are chasing eachother trying to find the master tape, and so on. Much like Hamlet, everything in this book is informed by the ghost. Plus, we get scenes that feature Himself alive and well and walking in the world, in some cases, decades before the main action of the book. An imposing paternal presence, fer sher...
Mod
There is a suggestion, never really confirmed, that she may have had acid thrown in her face. I don't remember where that is in the book. And as you say, she may wear the veil because her extraordinary beauty causes her much trouble with excessive attention from men, and so a different kind of deformity. The credo of the Union seems to suggest that extreme beauty is a kind of hideousness, and so, the veil.
We get a few conflicting versions of Joelle's accident over the course of the book. I don't want to engage in any spoilers but one version in particular comes from a really unreliable narrator relatively late in the book, which is the spot a lot of readers point to as the main source of ambiguity.
Mod
In our reading for Week Six (pp. 531-8), there is a long exchange between Joelle and Don Gately where he asks about the veil, and she explains the theories behind U.H.I.D. and how they differ from AA. At the end of the exchange, she makes a very clear declarative statement about her appearance, but even then, there is a touch of Wallacian* ambiguity.
*"Wallacian" as in Proustian, Shakespearian, etc. I don't know if this is a word, but it should be!
Mod
Jennifer - I've been thinking all week about your post and how IJ has been a big part of your life - and specifically how it relates to this statement by Jonathan Franzen in his 2011 article in the New Yorker:
The curious thing about David’s fiction, though, is how recognized and comforted, how loved, his most devoted readers feel when reading it. To the extent that each of us is stranded on his or her own existential island—and I think it’s approximately correct to say that his most susceptible readers are ones familiar with the socially and spiritually isolating effects of addiction or compulsion or depression—we gratefully seized on each new dispatch from that farthest-away island which was David. At the level of content, he gave us the worst of himself: he laid out, with an intensity of self-scrutiny worthy of comparison to Kafka and Kierkegaard and Dostoyevsky, the extremes of his own narcissism, misogyny, compulsiveness, self-deception, dehumanizing moralism and theologizing, doubt in the possibility of love, and entrapment in footnotes-within-footnotes self-consciousness. At the level of form and intention, however, this very cataloguing of despair about his own authentic goodness is received by the reader as a gift of authentic goodness: we feel the love in the fact of his art, and we love him for it.
As I've been reading the book, I keep asking myself, "How is he doing this thing? How is he drilling into our psyches and making us FEEL? Is it simply that he is speaking a truth - or THE truth - and we recognize it as such?"
Is IJ a kind of psychic samizdat, but without the debilitating effects of The Entertainment? Does IJ, in it's effect on the reader, become a kind of biblical text - The Book of David? This might sound extreme, but considering the moral vacuum of contemporary times, can this kind of writing fill a gap in our empty souls?
Food for thought...
I am finally in a place where the discussion thread I'm reading here is also somewhere near the part of the book I'm actually at. Still 2 years behind the times, though.I have to say, there are many many parts of this section that I loved. I thought Eschaton was hilarious, and not even just the breakdown, but the whole set up of the scenario, the physical preparations of the tennis court, the whole nine yards. I love that DFW has somehow managed to put together a totally improbable level of international displomatic sophistication (that I suspect may surpass in some ways that of the adults they are imitating) with a totally believable sense that these are still fundamentally little kids, whose behavior can devolve exactly as these kids' did. I love the moment where Hal is watching Ingersoll realize his realization and plan his plan:
"Hal can almost visualize a dark light bulb going on above Ingersoll's head." The reader can too, you can see in these momemnts just what will happen, how this is the moment when all hell breaks loose.
I also cannot get over how beautiful footnote 110 is. The way that the discourse is 1. believable as a real (if somewhat eggheaded) coversation 2. totally decipherable to the reader despite 3. containing its own argot which, while not any slang I know, is also somehow exactly LIKE how slang or some kind of in-joke thing works inside a group. The use of the word Subject here, especially since Hal is really laying into Orin for being precisely the kind of guy who describes woman as Subjects to begin with. Oof.
Then of course the way that the whole Québec seperatism long-term strategy thing is wedged into that familiar got-to-get-off-the-phone-dressing-with-one-hand-already type thing is just beautiful. You want to finish and hang up and get to the point but also to know what the seperatist theory actually is, all at once.
Overall I guess that somehow the book has found a way to take all kinds of non-literary speech patterns and somehow render them egg-headed and beautiful all at once, and when I was reading footnote 110, I suddenly realized how this worked without being able to articulate it (stil, clearly), and, just, damn.
And finally, but by no means least, the puppet show cum film oval office exchange with is both fact and fiction within the fictional world of the novel, with the curly horned wagon-pulling animal ban and the Canadian-American negotiations in overwritten headline format. This was hilarious. The high point for me was the list of modes of evacuation transport and, in the midst of everything, the tiny corrections of vocabulary that just show how totally fucked up these guys' priorities are:
"SEC. H.E.W.: Rollerblades I think you mean, Marty.
SEC. TRANSP.: All feedback and input welcome, Trent."
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
So thanks for letting me spew forth thoughts. I am now fully in this novel's clutches.
Mod
Here is a music video that recreates a game of Eschaton:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7T1...
This link should work in Europe.
Ok, that's fantastic. It also really drives home how odd it is to be a spectator at something like that, even weirder in many ways than it is to participate.
Begins: 14 NOVEMBER YEAR OF THE DEPEND ADULT UNDERGARMENT Poor Tony Krause had a seizure on the T.
Poor Tony Krause tries on actual Withdrawal and realizes it’s not a good look for him. Prorector Mlle. Thierry Potrincourt’s Saturday class ‘Separatism and Return: Québecois History from Frontenac Through the Age of Interdependence’ gives Hal a queasy feeling especially when Orin calls for intellectual back-up on possible motives of the various Separatist cells, with said questions posed as a supposed strategy to help Orin get into the panties-and-a-half of Subject-and-a-half Helen Steeply, which we can only suspect will present quite a sexual dilemma to poor horny Orin should he succeed with said strategy, since it smells like love, and yet, there seems to be more to these questions than just a lengthy end note. A detailed account of Mario’s entry into and movements through the Incandenza family universe. Marathe and Steeply delve deeply into Freedom to Choose. An epic Eschaton game devolves into Armageddon when a disagreement over the question of Map v. Territory gets physical. Don Gately takes us on a lurid guided tour of the Boston AA Commitment circuit. Lyle and Himself get drunk in the weight room, Himself on Wild Turkey, Lyle via lingual-contact-high, so to speak. During the annual Continental Interdependence Day celebration/sugar binge, E.T.A. Staff and students watch Mario’s video puppet play and relive highlights of the formation of O.N.A.N., as presented in Mario’s much-condensed version of Himself’s The ONANtiad.*
*My apologies for the original schedule of pages for this week. The I-day celebration episode actually continues to page 418. Please feel free to discuss all the way through the scene!
To avoid spoilers, please restrict your comments to page 299 – 418 (and the earlier pages).