TDSOH: Not sure if Heavens for me!

[Keith]

So I'm around half way through the book now and I'm enjoying it so far. It's an interesting take on the while heaven v hell story and I like the Law and Order vibe I'm getting.

I've come across the same problem I've had in other books, films and TV programmes though...Heaven sounds really dull! In this case it sounds even more than dull...it sounds like a drug induced high. People are described as having no real idea who or what they are other than ecstatically happy. Heaven is described as a place of "No Responsibility."

Is it just me or this this sound like a terrible afterlife? It sounds more like One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest!!!

Maybe my reaction says more about me...I've always been more attracted the Norse like Afterlife with Beerhalls, Food, Fighting and Women!!!

[Tassie Dave, S&L Historian]

It sounds better than my expected after life.

worm food :-?

;-)

[Paul]

Maybe my reaction says more about me...I've always been more attracted the Norse like Afterlife with Beerhalls, Food, Fighting and Women!!!


Aye, Now that's an afterlife I'd be willing to believe in!

[Erik]

Yeah, I just started the book (about 50 pages in) and the description of the souls in Heaven reminded me of the fabricants in the Sonmi story in CLOUD ATLAS. They have no identity and are happy for no real reason. Becoming a mindless zombie doesn't seem like much of an ultimate reward.

Also, Heaven sounds way too bright and shiny for me. Like I'd need to wear sunglasses all the time or my eyes might start to bleed.

[Robyn]

Keith wrote: "Heaven sounds really dull! In this case it sounds even more than dull...it sounds like a drug induced high. People are described as having no real idea who or what they are other than ecstatically happy. Heaven is described as a place of "No Responsibility."

Is it just me or this this sound like a terrible afterlife?"

Just keep reading. Several characters in the book share your view and agree wholeheartedly with you.

(view spoiler)[
Actually, that view of heaven is the motivation behind the major plot/storyline of the book. (hide spoiler)]

[David Sven]

Yeah, I'm not real sure Dirty Streets of Heaven or most of Heaven's portrayal in pop culture is that theologically accurate.

[Robyn]

David Sven wrote: "Yeah, I'm not real sure Dirty Streets of Heaven or most of Heaven's portrayal in pop culture is that theologically accurate."

Nothing is theologically accurate. One religion is so different from the others.

But the interesting (good) thing about Disty Streets of Heaven is that it managed to maintain an internal consistency (so far), while avoiding focusing on any particular religion.

[David Sven]

Rodrigo wrote: "Nothing is theologically accurate. One religion is so different from the others."

I agree that the book is not a "religious" book or a serious take on any religion. However, it still follows pop culture shows like "Supernatural" in providing an "alternative" version of the Biblical heaven, angels and demons. As such it is deriving a lot of its imagery and elements straight out of the Bible but presenting an alternative or parody "theology."

So I agree with the OP in that the version of heaven as presented in this book and a lot of modern shows and media sucks. But why would I take pop culture as serious commentary on religion? None of it as far as I can see, takes itself seriously.

[John]

Except that if you were in (this version of) heaven you wouldn't mind. You would be blissfully happy and not think it dull at all. You can't really know until you go, and you'll never go because this version of heaven is fiction.

[Paul]

John wrote: "Except that if you were in (this version of) heaven you wouldn't mind. You would be blissfully happy and not think it dull at all. You can't really know until you go, and you'll never go because th..."

To be fair ALL versions of heaven are fiction. Unless you mean in the subjective sense.

[Sean]

John wrote: "this version of heaven is fiction."

That implies there's another version that isn't.

[David Sven]

Paul wrote: "To be fair ALL versions of heaven are fiction. Unless you mean in the subjective sense"

That would be your version of heaven

[John]

Sean wrote:
That implies there's another version that isn't."
You are right Sean, because I believe in another version of heaven. If you would like to talk about belief, I wouldn't mind having that conversation, but I don't think this is the place for it. I hope that we can both respect each other's differences of opinions and get back to the book.

I'm getting a bit of an Orwellian vibe from heaven. It's another thought controlling dictatorship, where everyone loves their immortal leader and they are in a never ending war with an opposing force.

I'm not even at page 200 yet though, so I'm looking forward to finishing the book and seeing if that view changes.

[terpkristin]

I cannot get into this book in the least. It feels like a bad cross between Showtime's old show, "Dead Like Me" and any "Law and Order" variant. While I loved DLM, L&O is beyond boring to me.

Further, the writing is terrible. If this is indicative of Tad Williams' work, I can't figure out why people like him.

TL;DR I'm going to try a little more but can see lemming it. Dresden is better for modern-day fantasy. Significantly so.

Edited: "Dressed is better orders day fantasy" because apparently autocorrect isn't my friend

[Courtney]

I agree. I think this book is totally hokey and the writing is immature and cheesy.
Courtney

[George]

As a highly visual reader, I've found that visualizing Tad Williams's Heaven really starts to tire me out after a while. The Fields I can deal with better -- just pastoral fields that happen to kind of glow, but when you get into the city it's such an alien landscape inhabited by supremely alien beings. If they make a movie out of this, the Heaven scenes will have to be entirely CGI to get it looking even close to what I imagine.

[Adam Zajicek]

I agree that the heaven in this story is pretty messed up. A person dies and goes to heaven only to live out an eternity in blissful ignorance or forever high. On top of that they lose all their memories of their past life. Something really sinister is going on in heaven. On the other hand, I guess it beats burning in hell forever.

[Sky]

Adam wrote: "On the other hand, I guess it beats burning in hell forever."

That's one of the parts that made this book fall flat for me. The implication stated order of things in hell seems to be "work hard, make other people miserable, and you'll be all right." I mean, Caz told Bobby that (view spoiler)[her husband was happier in hell than he ever had been when he was alive (hide spoiler)].

So... what, hell's only bad if you didn't actually deserve to go there? Or even then, as with Caz, if you're a busy little bee you can make your way back to the mortal world where you can live forever, look however you want, remember your past life, and have the kind of power and resources that angels only dream about. (view spoiler)[Oh, and it sounds like the Third Way might be able to get you out of there anyway. Because, you know, eternity's really more of a guideline. (hide spoiler)]

It feels like the system just wasn't quite thought out all the way. Or maybe there are earthbound angels all over the place defecting from heaven. Who knows?

[Heather]

“When you’re an angel of the Lord you just have to get used to certain ambiguities.”

This line jumped out at me when I read it. You tend to think that only mortals would have to deal with the whole "God works in mysterious ways" deal. Shouldn't angels get at least a little more insight into God's plan?

Did anyone else start to wonder if maybe God doesn't actually exist in the story? That maybe the system is just grinding along, maintained by habit or inertia and nothing else? Or maybe God's attention has wandered away from the heaven/hell system. It's pretty clear that we're not supposed to like heaven. Prefer it to hell, sure, but like it for itself? Nope.

[Rik]

Heather wrote: "“Did anyone else start to wonder if maybe God doesn't actually exist in the story? That maybe the system is just grinding along, maintained by habit or inertia and nothing else? Or maybe God's attention has wandered away from the heaven/hell system. It's pretty clear that we're not supposed to like heaven. Prefer it to hell, sure, but like it for itself? Nope. "

I'm kind of thinking that when the whole trilogy wraps up that we'll find out it was God, er the Highest, that is behind the 3rd way.

[Tim]

@David Sven: Williams went more in for alternatives to Biblical Heaven in this book. Consider as other sources the Quran, various apocrypha not selected by the Nicene Council, the Orthodox traditions, the Gnostic books, and even the various other apocalypses than "Revelation", rather than dismissing it as "pop culture".

Separate from that; The salvation by works mantra was really his only choice, unless the goal was to pander to a specific faith. By choosing that everyone is wrong, we have a book of apparently dubious enjoyment. By picking a winner, we'd have a screed. I loved it, but my more theologically hidebound friends won't even discuss it with me. the idea of an imperfect Heaven blows their gaskets.

[David Sven]

Tim wrote: "I loved it, but my more theologically hidebound friends won't even discuss it with me. the idea of an imperfect Heaven blows their gaskets."

I suspect one would have to take Williams writing seriously before they could "blow their gasket?"

[George]

Sky wrote: That's one of the parts that made this book fall flat for me. The implication stated order of things in hell seems to be ..."

That's all part of the point of the book. No one really understands how the politics in Heaven work -- though it seems fairly stable, and in Hell it is possible to improve your station through thieving and treachery. Of course, we only see those few denizens of Hell that have been able to climb that ladder enough to get onto Earth. The majority of the damned are still in pools of lava or flaming shit, just as it seems the majority of the blessed are frolicking in the Fields in a blissful haze.

[David(LA,CA)]

Keith wrote: "Maybe my reaction says more about me...I've always been more attracted the Norse like Afterlife with Beerhalls, Food, Fighting and Women!!!"

You could always see if there's an opening with the Harps or the Advocates. Bobby didn't seem to be missing any of those four things.

I wonder if part of the reasoning for the way memories are handled as part of the after life is part of the punishment/reward thing. You end up going to hell, and you remember your life. You remember what you did that landed you there. You can remember a time when your life wasn't pain and suffering. You can remember people you'll never see again. On the other hand, you go to Heaven and your sins are forgotten. You don't run the risk of an bad memory popping up at random to ruin your good time. You don't feel loss for all eternity because you made it, but a close relative or good friend didn't.

I can't say I like heaven removing people's memories, but on some level I can sort of see a reasoning behind it.

[George]

David(LA,CA) wrote: You could always see if there's an openin..."

That is probably the rationale for removing memories. A lot of Christians struggle with the idea of non-believing family members possibly not getting to Heaven. I believe that may be why some have a concept of "carrying" one's family members to heaven through prayer.

(Note: I'm just talking about beliefs some people have. I do hope this doesn't spark a religious argument.)