Miévillians discussion
Perdido Str Station Discussion
>
SECTION 3: Chapters 7-9
Since most of our readers seem to be at least up to this point by now,(and some much farther on) this section is officially open.I'd be very interested in hearing comments on :
Garuda philosphy/society,
the Victorian freak show,
Isaac's quest,
Derkhan and the apparent political backdrop of the novel;
and
only first-time readers who have not progressed past the first quarter of the book:
speculation on what could be the mystery surrounding the mysterious caterpillars delivered at parliament. ;D
Why, hello, JK Rowling.Disappointed, Mr Mieville. Disappointed indeed.
And Magesta Barbile...acidic, as well.
Scribble wrote: "Why, hello, JK Rowling.Disappointed, Mr Mieville. Disappointed indeed."
Oh? Elucidate?
and I've got a personal joke with myself - he uses palimpsest in every book, here it is on page 71 lol. Took a bit longer to pop up in The Scar.
Andrea wrote: "does she mean Septimus?"Nah...it's just a few things starting to coalesce. I'll leave the actual elucidation for the review :P
Hint: I think I actually like his short stories better.
The Circus of Weird. A nod to the New Weird surely.The Circus itself is upsetting, very much exploitative. One of the nastier features of Victorian society used perhaps as a mirror for our own voyerism and fascination with the macabre. And we would leave such a display with a smug feeling of satisfaction that we are luckier than the poor inhabitants. A nasty side of human nature, brought out of the darkness....the shadows into the harsh lights of the candles and gasjets...concentrated...into dramatic spots
Yes, i think he was spotlighting the horrible Victorian obsession with 'freaks' and the freak shows that they loved to attend. And the charlatans that so eagerly fed these appetites. I thought it was a pretty sad vignette.Of course, since the novel has a Steampunk theme,(which is based on Victorian themes) the freak show is part of setting that background, and is quite a clever part of his atmosphere building. I think he manages to give it (through the eyes of Isaac and Dherkan) a 21st century viewpoint though? Do you agree, or?
Andrea wrote: "and I've got a personal joke with myself - he uses palimpsest in every book, here it is on page 71 lol. Took a bit longer to pop up in The Scar."Oh absolutely! I had actually toyed with the idea of starting a separate thread just for us to see who can spot the word "palimpsest" the most times...
Traveller wrote: "Oh absolutely! I had actually toyed with the idea of starting a separate thread just for us to see who can spot the word "palimpsest" the most times... "I first came across this term as the title of Gore Vidal's memoir.
Not sure whether it is first mentioned in this section, but can I add the magazine "Runagate Rampant" or "Double-R" as a topic?Possible (but unlikely?) reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramparts...
Ian, yes, I loosely referred to it when i mentioned meeting Derkhan, and that here we start to see more of the political backdrop. However, just quickly have a peep at section 4. In that section, Derkhan and the mag is even more specifically dealt with?, and there might be an even better place to discuss it in any depth of detail than here. (Because then we are introduced to, erm, other elements surrounding Derkahn's activities as well, don't you think?)
Nice catch on the Ramparts. I do think that Mieville is perpetually allusive, so it's possible. I never thought of the Left as Catholic, or of Catholic being Left, but, live and learn.
Traveller wrote: "I never thought of the Left as Catholic, or of Catholic being left, but, live and learn. "The Left wasn't exclusively Catholic (or vice versa), but I think Catholicism influenced the French Left, and in Australia, the Labor Party was closely associated with upwardly mobile Irish Catholic aspirations until the Party split in 1955 to 1957:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australi...
Interesting! Thanks.Yes, Catholicism seems to have some quite dichotomous blendings of dictatorship and communism. Communism from expanding on the teachings of Christ, and dictatorial, because The Pope is the (not entirely impoverished) boss of the world. :P
Andrea wrote: "and I've got a personal joke with myself - he uses palimpsest in every book, here it is on page 71 lol. Took a bit longer to pop up in The Scar."I'm counting cacophony. (I wonder if palimpsest and cacophony live together in perfect harmony.)
I suspect that there is not a group of legislators known as parlimentarians, but a large construct known as Parliment. Parliment's guts are made up of a very simplistic computer run mail system. Up in the highest offices is Research and Development that's running some very nasty experiments behind it's aggressively white facade. Why does a supposed political entity need R&D anyway? The only people who seem like politicians are Mayor R and his gang or are they criminals? The Militia is an omnipotent force soaring above the roofs of Crobozon and grabbing anyone at anytime. They're always watching from their diragables or are they having a party instead?
So, first glimpse at Remakes: love the concept, very, very original, if sinister. Chapter 9 takes on a surreal air. I mean, come on, one lone scientist asks for a few winged specimens, and all of a sudden the entire city is on it? A little disproportionate but then Mielville can be a drama queen at times. Besides, we're still in the 'build up' phase (since nothing happens until page 300), so a lot of these chapters are going to be background scene setting.
Believe me, once the action starts, it really takes off! I actually liked a lot of the start where he sets the scene, because thinking back on it, there's a lot to chew on in terms of contemplative material.
Some of the later action bits are also a bit too much..-you'll see. There are bits that i really thought he could rather have added to some other novel instead of making this one so crowded.
I'll mention the when i add that particular section.
I was going to add chapters 18-19 today, but I had many distractions. I will add a few sections in the next 12- 18 hours.
Knig-o-lass wrote: "So, first glimpse at Remakes: love the concept, very, very original, if sinister. Chapter 9 takes on a surreal air. I mean, come on, one lone scientist asks for a few winged specimens, and all of a..."I feel the widespread reaction to Isaac's request emphasized how good Lemuel is at his chosen profession. And of course, Mieville's an economist, so a scene that demonstrates an extremely effective and well run black market is in character with his interests.
Hmm. This is China's thesis. http://www.amazon.com/Between-Equal-R...I really need to research his bio better. I'm trying to find out what he did before his PhD, which is officially in International Law, but deals a lot with commodities, Marxism etc.
He is of course a
You got any nice links, Aubrey? I need more info for the bio section.
No links, sorry. I presumed that he was an economist from the blurb on the dust jacket about him pursuing a PhD at the London School of Economics, as well as Keely's review. I may have done so incorrectly, and if so I apologize.
Sorry, Aubrey, no, i didn't mean it that way. I don't think or mean to imply that your assumption is incorrect. I was merely saying that i myself would like to have a bit of more in-depth background about the man.He is a Marxist anyway, and that would presuppose at least some Economics background-- and his PhD does deal with, i think, Economics issues on a world-scale. I've been meaning to look him up in more detail for a while now.
Between Equal Rights, A Marxist Theory of International Law originated as his PhD dissertation:
http://sdonline.org/42/speculative-fi...
and:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Twxz...
Mieville on Politics and Writing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y45u7J...
and as coeditor:
http://www.plutobooks.com/display.asp...
From his wiki on Politics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Mi...
Thanks Robert! Would you mind if i steal some of that for our bio thread?
Yes, as i had mentioned in the bio section, as per Wikipedia:Miéville was educated at Oakham School, a co-educational independent school in the historic market town of Oakham in Rutland, for two years. When he was eighteen, in 1990, he lived in Egypt teaching English for a year, where he developed an interest in Arab culture and Middle Eastern politics.
Miéville studied for a BA degree in social anthropology at Clare College, Cambridge, graduating in 1994, and achieved both a Masters' degree and PhD in International Relations from the London School of Economics in 2001. Miéville has also held a Frank Knox fellowship at Harvard University.
A book version of his PhD thesis, titled Between Equal Rights: A Marxist Theory of International Law, was published in the United Kingdom in 2005 by Brill in their "Historical Materialism" series, and in the United States in 2006 by Haymarket Books.
I gather that this is where CM earned his Masters and PhD: http://www2.lse.ac.uk/home.aspx
[London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) ]
Traveller wrote: "Thanks Robert! Would you mind if i steal some of that for our bio thread?"Mi libro, su libro, amiga.
Robert wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Thanks Robert! Would you mind if i steal some of that for our bio thread?"Mi libro, su libro, amiga."
that's so sweet :)
Dear members, regarding the progress of the group read:Please only open a thread when you've already read the contents of the chapters described in the thread title, or else you'll be spoiled.
Remember that we said at the beginning of the read, in the "preparation" section, that our group has vastly varying reading speeds, (as measured by the poll we did), and to avoid frustration for the faster readers, we will be opening the whole book in advance so that the faster readers can go ahead and the slower ones have only small sections of book to deal with per section (roughly 40 pages), so that when they open that section, they should have already read that part, and therefore it won't spoil anything for them if others have already posted there.
So, if you see others posting ahead of you, please don't worry about that, just keep reading and posting at your own pace, these threads aren't going to run away. We will still be here when you reach that part of the read.
Some of the members who promised that they were going to take part in these discussions, have not even started at all yet, and they may still decide to come in at some stage, so, don't worry, i'm pretty sure there will always be someone to talk to about issues in the threads.
Keep in mind that i have also gone to some measures to have these topics show up on the book's home page, so we might just pick up some members as we go along, who might see our threads and may want to have their say as well.
This is why I'm trying to say only the bare minimum in my little thread introductions, to give you guys leeway and space to write down your thoughts and interpretations.
Robert wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Thanks Robert! Would you mind if i steal some of that for our bio thread?"Mi libro, su libro, amiga."
Thanks Robert! That's why we're friends here on GR right! :)
Yes, Robert is indeed very sweet and generous--i've noticed that before, actually.
Another word that I started noticing was "gout".
I'm not sure where best to make this comment, but I felt that Bas Lag consisted of City-States, rather than fully-fledged nations.New Crobuzon has a Mayor rather than a Premier or a Prime Minister.
Part of the novel deals with International Law and Sovereignty in the sense that there is a concern that one person or State recognise and respect and enforce the laws of another State.
So there is a sense in which the novel explores some of the concerns of CM's thesis.
Oops, apologies, i might have got something wrong. Mieville might not be a classical Marxist, I might have mis-remembered this because i remembered that he had stood for the Socialist party. By far not the same thing... so i'm not sure anymore, if he is a Marxist proper as well.
Apparently, Mieville has stated that: I’m not a leftist trying to smuggle in my evil message by the nefarious means of fantasy novels. I’m a science fiction and fantasy geek.
I love this stuff. And when I write my novels, I’m not writing them to make political points.
I’m writing them because I passionately love monsters and the weird and horror stories and strange situations and surrealism, and what I want to do is communicate that.
But, because I come at this with a political perspective, the world that I’m creating is embedded with many of the concerns that I have... I’m trying to say I’ve invented this world that I think is really cool and I have these really big stories to tell in it and one of the ways that I find to make that interesting is to think about it politically.
If you want to do that too, that’s fantastic. But if not, isn’t this a cool monster?
Here is an exchange from another interview: JG: In what ways does the novel develop or explore Marxism? How does it bring Marxism into a contemporary perspective? Is there a kind of postmodern Marxism and, if so, is it at work in Perdido Street Station?
CM: I don’t really accept the term “postmodern” as explaining very much in the real world—I’d use it as a description for certain schools of theory, and certain schools of art. I don’t consider myself a postmodernist in any real sense.
Postmodernism has done quite a good job of colonizing lots of techniques and implying that anything like those techniques is therefore “postmodernist.” You can use certain deconstructive techniques, for example, without being a postmodernist—still being a classical Marxist. I realize that to some extent this is a semantic quibble, and if someone finds it useful to describe my stuff in that way, that’s up to them, but I’d resist it, because I don’t think it’s fair that hybridity, uncertainty, blurring identities, fracturing, formal experimentation, or the blurring of high and low culture should be ceded to postmodernism!
I want all that, and I’m a classical Marxist. For me, much of that list is about dialectics, which is something that underpins a lot of what I think about.
The novel isn’t “about” Marxism. When I want to explore Marxism, I write non-fiction. However, I represent certain concerns in fictional form because they fascinate me. There are direct political topics, such as the arguments over union organization, over the class basis of fascism, over the internal contradictions of racist consciousness, and so on, in the book. There are also slightly more abstruse ones. The model of consciousness explored in the book—where human consciousness is apparently ego plus subconscious, but is in fact the dialectical interrelation of the two, rather than an arithmetic addition, is a playful exploration not only of dialectics. It also explores the models of consciousness that I think explain social agency and the relationship between intuition and knowledge, which is something that Gramsci, for example, talks about a great deal.
I write the novel because I love writing books about weird shit and monsters, but I fill it with the concerns and fascinations that are in my head, and it’s no surprise that Marxism features large in there.
And another:"My dissertation is entitled A Historical Materialist Analysis of International Law and the Legal Form.
It’s a critical history and theory of international law, drawing extensively on the work of the Russian legal theorist Yevgeny Pashukanis.
Its direct influence on my novels has been very slight.
There’s a reference to jurisprudence in Perdido Street Station which is drawn from it, and there’s something about a form of maritime law in The Scar, but that’s about it.
The thesis is really an expression of a much broader theoretical interest and approach, which in turn informs the fiction, so to that extent, they’re both infused with a shared outlook."
Ian wrote: "Here is an exchange from another interview: JG: In what ways does the novel develop or explore Marxism? How does it bring Marxism into a contemporary perspective? Is there a kind of postmodern Ma..."
Ok, thanks--I meant i my post # 34, he had stood for the Socialist Party in the UK. In that sense, in the practical sense, a Socialist.
However, in the text you quote, he says: I want all that, and I’m a classical Marxist. For me, much of that list is about dialectics, which is something that underpins a lot of what I think about.
Gah, can't get more pertinent than that, i guess. Now, maybe i should just delete my post 34? *sigh* Let me at least edit it. Thanks.
Traveller wrote: "Apparently, Mieville has stated that: I’m not a leftist trying to smuggle in my evil message by the nefarious means of fantasy novels. I’m a science fiction and fantasy geek.
I love this stuff. And when I write my novels, I’m not writing them to make political points."
Except he so DOES! He makes excellent political points, and the culmination of all of that is seen in 'Iron Council' which is undoubtedly his most political work to date, his thesis excepted. Yes, the worlds he creates are influenced by his political beliefs, but I find it hard to believe that he does not deliberately add quite a bit of politics to them.
"If you want to do that too, that’s fantastic. But if not, isn’t this a cool monster?"
If he actually believes it, he may be kidding himself a bit here. I can't even imagine someone reading his books - especially the Bas-Lag books - and being able to detach the experience from politics focusing on cool monsters alone. I don't think people who can easily do that would be the people attracted to CM's novels in the first place.
Straying from the topic of Marxism here:
I find it fascinating that on the second read-through it's easy to pick up the subtle references to the things that will be important in the subsequent books, especially 'Iron Council'. Like little Easter eggs scattered by CM for our enjoyment.
Like (view spoiler)
Ooh, Nataliya, I haven't read Iron Council yet, but now you're whetting my appetite to start even sooner on it than planned! Now, i'm still wondering if he just took things out of he first novel and embroidered further on them, or if he actually planned the whole series ahead?
Certainly a little item for our list of questions to ask his Chinaness...
It's not a big issue for me whether he is a Marxist or a Socialist or both or some version of one or other of them or both. (I think the UK Socialist Party is Marxist anyway?)It's just that I think his politics are there in his novel, usually subtly, he doesn't bash you over the head with them, and it's fun to look for them, as Nataliya says, like Easter eggs.
There are many flavors of Marxism, just as there are many flavors of Christianity. Um, ..wait..aren't we discussing that somewhere..? :P
Traveller wrote: "There are many flavors of Marxism, just as there are many flavors of Christianity. Um, ..wait..aren't we discussing that somewhere..? :P"That might have been the many flavours of Anarchism?
That as well! (and maybe especially that..) Everything has many flavors in this multicolored world of ours, some things more than others..
Traveller wrote: "Ooh, Nataliya, I haven't read Iron Council yet, but now you're whetting my appetite to start even sooner on it than planned! Now, i'm still wondering if he just took things out of he first novel..."
'Iron Council' has so many of these little subtle references to PSS that I'm only appreciating now. And it has a very understated and brief mention of one of the major characters in PSS - the part that made me both ridiculously happy and sad at the same time. I won't spoil it, but you will know immediately what I'm referring to when you get to that part.
"Certainly a little item for our list of questions to ask his Chinaness..."
This list is growing :) I'm really hoping we'll eventually get the answers.
Nataliya wrote: "'Iron Council' has so many of these little subtle references to PSS that I'm only appreciating now."Where do you go in CM after PSS? I think I need some more of his Dreamshit.
Traveller wrote: "That as well! (and maybe especially that..) Everything has many flavors in this multicolored world of ours, some things more than others.."
Nice mixed metaphor, Trav.
It's interesting that CM discusses scent and taste a lot, especially when describing (view spoiler)
On page 222, he coins the expression "taste-scent".
Ian wrote: "It's interesting that CM discusses scent and taste a lot, especially when describing the moths, but vision is not as imp..."If I recall correctly, (view spoiler).
Thanks, Aubrey. Technically, are antennae the equivalent of seeing?
I also meant to recall the difference in ways of seeing between Lin and Isaac.
Lin has a myriad of sensory pads lined up on a surface or plane.
Is anybody else fascinated by the development of the eye?
Ian wrote: "Thanks, Aubrey. Technically, are antennae the equivalent of seeing?
I also meant to recall the difference in ways of seeing between Lin and Isaac.
Lin has a myriad of sensory pads lined up on a..."
Antennae are perfectly good substitutions for eyes, but I wouldn't use the word equivalent, which implies similar processing of sensory input. If you went blind and had your eyes replaced by antennae, you'd have a hell of a time trying to use them to "see".
Eyes are pretty cool, but I personally think ears don't get enough credit. Their miniature bilogical accelerometers are really neat.
In this section, we meet Derkhan Blueday, and a few more of Lin and Isaac's friends.
The atmosphere starts to take on a more political charge.
Isaac is engaging in a quest.
I'd love to hear reader's comments on Isaac's experiences while looking for a Garuda, especially at the 'show' he attends with Derkhan.