A Game of Thrones
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Jon Snow is a lot better than Ned Stark's children. Don't you think Jon deserves to be treated fairly by Catelyn?
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Meryl
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Oct 26, 2012 11:27AM
I think so!
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i would think that a lot of characters that were killed deserved better, but it's just not in the cards is it?the more we see of cat the more we see a petty and jealous streak in her, the more we a pointed contrast to ned's stoic and rational demeanor. their entire relationship hinged on duty and honor, and though i'm sure they grew to love each other, I don't truly believe that they were actually in love.
I was really hoping that Catelyn would come to accept Jon.I don't know how far you are in the series, but I just finished book 3 and I really don't think I am going to get my wish.
Absolutely! Cat was my least favorite character simply because of the way she treated Jon. It certainly must have been difficult to have your husband's bastard son living with you, but it certainly wasn't Jon's fault. (view spoiler)Edit: removed offending spoiler
You have to look at Cat's character within the frame that she is living. In the 7 kingdoms, Ned bringing Jon home was a huge insult. It was kind of her just to allow him to be there. Add insult to injury, Jon looked like and was more like Ned than any of his own sons. That had to really pain her.
Ultimately, I adore Jon and don't really care for Cat, but I don't blame her for what she cant' help.
If you ask me, the one thing they should have done was allowed him at the feast when the King came to visit. Ned condoned that behaviour, you can't just blame Cat.
Kim wrote: "Absolutely! Cat was my least favorite character simply because of the way she treated Jon. It certainly must have been difficult to have your husband's bastard son living with you, but it certain..."Don't you think this spoiler should have been contained to book 1! Really pissed. It's like you wrote that just to piss people off, it has nothing to do with the context. WTG &*#@!!
Laurie wrote: "Kim wrote: "Absolutely! Cat was my least favorite character simply because of the way she treated Jon. It certainly must have been difficult to have your husband's bastard son living with you, bu..."if you're referring to the same spoiler I see (the one in the spoiler tag), it's not really a spoiler...it's more of a theory that some readers have. I had a HUGE spoiler dumped on me in one discussion, so I know how bad it sucks to not get to find out for yourself, but she actually didn't reveal any plot points or anything! happy (unspoiled) reading! :)
I think I’m the only one who likes Catelyn, and dislikes Jon. I don’t condone her treatment of Jon, but I do sympathize to some extent. Any woman would hate having to raise the product of her husband’s infidelity. Of course, it’s not Jon’s fault – but Ned certainly didn’t make it easier for Catelyn either.I don’t understand the title of this thread. Why does Jon deserve better than Ned’s children? He is one of Ned’s children! (Fan theories aside, anyway.)
Obviously Jon didn't deserve to be treated badly over something that isn't his fault, however, I don't think Catelyn was overly mean to him, to me, she tolerated him, in a way treating him like any other Bastard. I also think that to her he was a constant reminder of how in her mind, she wasn't good enough to Ned I don't think it helps as Jon looks more like a Stark than her other children so it is more realistic if there was some more hostility.and jon better than his other children? i think you would need to determine what you meant by better :) more honourable? interesting character?, either way I think we all have our favourites among the Stark children, to me Arya is the best character in the book so Jon doesn't compare!
Kirby wrote: "Laurie wrote: "Kim wrote: "Absolutely! Cat was my least favorite character simply because of the way she treated Jon. It certainly must have been difficult to have your husband's bastard son livi..."Why in the world would a 'theory' be labeled as a spoiler? That's even worse... and still has nothing to do w/ book 1 or even 2, 3 or 4. I was assuming I was in for a shock in 5. Here's to hoping your correct. (And no, you don't need to reiterate, I'd rather assume and hope for the best).
Excuse me for not stating that it was a theory and not fact. I put it behind a spoiler, I am horribly sorry. Forgive my ignorance. I did not write it to piss people off as you state. I believed it was in context with the topic.I have edited the orginal to remove the offending comment.
Kim wrote: "Excuse me for not stating that it was a theory and not fact. I put it behind a spoiler, I am horribly sorry. Forgive my ignorance. I did not write it to piss people off as you state. I believed..."Well, at the time, I thought it was actual and came from as far out as book 5. It was a huge shock to see in discussion for book 1; though perhaps my assumption that spoilers will be contained within the book of topic is wrong.
Needless to say, I'm glad it's just a theory.
Kat wrote: "Obviously Jon didn't deserve to be treated badly over something that isn't his fault, however, I don't think Catelyn was overly mean to him, to me, she tolerated him, in a way treating him like any..."I couldn't agree more with you about Arya being the best character but for me the most interesting is the little man.
Cat's behavior towards Jon is quite natural and understandable. He is a constant reminder of Ned's betrayal of his vows to her. The best thing about this series is that no one is perfect and you cant hate or love a person absolutely. Everyone has his or her flaws and redeeming qualities.
I cannot keep straight what I learned in one book from another! I'm not sure which Stark kid I would have liked best at the end of Book 1 but I've come to appreciate them all. I will make no comment on Cat; she is an enigma.
I think Jon tries to act better than Catelyn's own kids because he knows he's a bastard. Bastards are generally looked down upon throughout the series and I believe Jon tries to act as honourable as possible to persuade others that he's not a "typical bastard".
Cat holds a helluva grudge in the way she hates Jon Snow. Too bad because he's such an honorable character. All the Stark kids are good though. Drove me nuts how they left Jon's fate hanging in the balance at the end of A Dance with Dragons. And no publishing date for the sequel...gahhhhh!!
I kind of see Catelyn's point, actually. I mean, she loved one man, then was made to marry his brother.Now, she's trying to make the best of things and has even come to respect and care for Ned over the years.
But then, that same man you are trying to build a life with comes home with a child not yours and gives him a place in a home you really didn't want in the first place.
I can totally see why she's embraced the bitter. She wanted a family with the brother, and got a bastard to raise. She's from a proud family and I can understand why she'd be stubborn about it. It was likely very embarrassing for her. Especially when Ned treats Jon equally with her children.
Not that it's right, just that I can see her point on that one.
Meryl wrote: "I think so!" Better than Arya & Bran? Really? I see those three as the interesting ones, although I'm taking to Sansa more the further I get into the series.
Granted, I've only read the first book so far, but I think because Jon isn't her son and she believes Ned really loved his mother that she'll never accept him. She really should tho; he's a wonderful young man and very intelligent.
Danielle wrote: "Granted, I've only read the first book so far, but I think because Jon isn't her son and she believes Ned really loved his mother that she'll never accept him. She really should tho; he's a wonderf..."I don't think Jon is particularly wonderful, but otherwise I agree. Part of Cat's negative attitude towards Jon stems from jealousy: she believes that Jon is the son of the woman Ned really loved (Ashara Dayne, according to gossip), even though he was forced to marry Cat. Mistreating Jon is Cat's (admittedly very immature) way of expressing her jealousy towards his mother.
I agree with the comments on here that you can't really blame Cat for having a grudge against Jon. That doesn't make her a bad person
The main reason I disliked Cat's treatment of Jon was because she seemed like such a good, involved mother. She didn't seem like the type of woman who would treat a motherless boy the way that she treated Jon Snow. Yes, he was her husband's bastard but it's not like Ned was her first choice anyways. I would have found it more true to her character if she accepted Jon Snow just because she was such a nurturing woman.If we are discussing our favourite Stark children here, I'd say that Jon is my favourite, followed by Arya, then Bran, then Sansa, then Rob.
Honestly I think she treats him very well. Does she like him? No. But does she ever really go out of her way to be cruel to him or abuse him? No again. Fact is he isn't her son, one of the few rights she has is to not treat him like one. Cat really couldn't have that fight with Ned about Jon, it was the one thing he really put his lordly foot down about. So ya Cat is cool and distant from him for the most part, but keep in mind she never discouraged a relationship between him and the other Stark children. There are no scenes of Cat poisoning them against Jon in any way, her issue with Jon is her issue and she keeps it that way. Let's be real if her name were Cersei Jon would've been and had an "accident".
Brittanie wrote: "Honestly I think she treats him very well. Does she like him? No. But does she ever really go out of her way to be cruel to him or abuse him? No again."Of course Catelyn goes out of her way to be cruel to Jon! In what is their first conversation (and IIRC, their only one in the first two books) in GoT, Catelyn tells Jon that it should have been him instead of Bran who fell from the tower, and who, at that point in time, was in a coma, and possibly dying. It is extremely nasty and completely unwarranted, given that all Jon is doing in that scene is crying over Bran, and trying to comfort Cat. After that scene, I was determined to hate Cat - but fortunately, she turned out to be a much more nuanced character, and I started liking her again later in the book.
It's possible to read her cruel words in this scene as her simply lashing out in her grief at someone she didn't particularly like. But that doesn't change the fact that from Jon's point of view, the closest thing he has to a mother wishes him dead.
The jury is still out on Catelyn - nuanced is an understatement. I forget the youngest son's name but I suspect we may be hearing more about him at some point -- if we ever get another book!
A lot better in what? They're people, imperfect realist people in a culture where bastards do not receive the same station as their trueborn siblings. In this context, they're not the same. I think Catelyn treats him fairly, just not lovingly. Jon plays the martyr too much at the beginning of the series, his character grows to be more than that. Keep reading!
Meryl wrote: "I think so!"People don't get what they deserve. That's life, and that's good writing.
Mitali wrote: "Of course Catelyn goes out of her way to be cruel to Jon! In what is their first conversation (and IIRC, their only one in the first two books) in GoT, Catelyn tells Jon that it should have been him instead of Bran who fell from the tower, and who, at that point in time, was in a coma, and possibly dying."yeah, I had a very hard time liking her after she said that to jon.
if everybody ended up up loving everybody else in these books, it would make for a much less interesting story.(though I'm pretty sure if anybody could pull it off, it'd be G.R.R. Martin)
I for one dislike Catelyn majorly. Woman just rubs me the wrong way with her sometimes pious/righteous demeanor. "Oh, I'm doing this atrocity for my children so do not judge me harshly." Yes, I will Cat. I will judge you and find you harsh.
Catelyn shall be rewarded appropriately in the next seasons as you would think she deserves her fate....
Jamesepowell wrote: "Catelyn is angry at Ned, but directs it at Jon Snow. She is Lady Stark and a Tully. It is one thing for her Lord to have produced a bastard. But to have done so such a short time after their mar..."Bingo. That is precisely the reason in my opinion too. And FWIW, we see a little more of that in the coming books.
The morally correct answer here is yes. But humans don't always do what is morally correct and sometimes they just can't help feeling the way they do. Hence Cat's a bitch to Jon Snow.
I think it says a lot about Jon's strength of character that he grew up with no resentment or jealousy towards any of his siblings.When they found the direwolves he was like 'one for each of the Stark children' excluding himself before they found the 'bastard' pup.
Catelyn is a bit resentful, and her little children are good Starks too!
As much as I like Jon, I don't think Catelyn is a bad person for thinking the above. For all she knows, Jon and his children could be a potential threat to her grand-children's claim to Winterfell, particularly since Jon was raised as a Stark alongside legitimate heir Robb. Moreover, what Ned is doing really does seem rather unusual. Compare how Jon Snow was raised to Larence and Ramsay Snow.
Well, that's true, there is something about him, we'll see in "winds of winter"
yes Jon Snow is better then the Stark kids besides Aya i mean no disrespect Jon
Yes - but its true many women, especially mothers, are jealous of their husbands, boy friends, partners other children - no matter that they are nice people. It's just life.
I don't think Catelyn was all that great a person. Perhaps she was a good person, she was flawed most certainly. She certainly made a good deal of bad judgments and her treatment of Jon just happens to be one of them. However! Her treatment of Jon is one of the many things that happen in his life to shape him into the person he is- which, in turn, makes him a bit different from his siblings...things happen for a reason. Also, I think Bran's a good kid.
I don't think she treated him unfairly. I think she treated him the way she did because of who he is. I mean, think about it... if your husband came home and introduced this boy to you as his son and told you he was going to live with you and be treated the way your children are treated, you'd probably have a chip on your shoulder too. Do I agree that it was right how she treated him? No. It wasn't his fault. He didn't ask for Ned to be unfaithful to Catelyn. But it happened. And she couldn't deal in any other way than how she was. I don't think that makes her mean, or evil or anything else bad. I think it makes her human... flawed.
Have to remeber the time this is written. Jon was lucky to be raised by his father. If the world was different no matter of your birth you'd be treated the same. We know that it is not - we are treated due to our race, religion, birth rite, weight, disability.
I confess, each time Catelyn turned Jon's attempts to be close to her down I gritted my teeth. It was just so hard to forgive her for her treatment of this child. Let's all be honest here, Jon is not really a reminder of Ned's betrayal, he's a boy. NED is a reminder of NED's betrayal, and if she's got a problem with that well then their obviously successful sexy life since could possibly make up for it.I always wanted to be a step-parent, so to see one portrayed like such a shrew made it hard for me to read. I thought I had picked up a Disney story... and then read the rest of the series and WOW, not Disney!
Well actually I believe Jon is not Ned's son but the bastard of his dead sister & he promised her to take him as his own so that Robert would not murder him. I too wish th enext book would come out so I can see if I'm right.
I understand Catelyn's treatment of Jon. As already stated above, he is a constant reminder of Ned's betrayal. However, Jon IS a very good man. He should be treated on his own merits, on who he is as a man. Not on his father's infidelity. So to me, Catelyn is a bit overboard. Vindictiveness? Spite? I haven't read all the books yet, but I believe her attitude toward Jon isn't very just at all.
In regards to the title of the thread, I do not think that Jon was any better than any of the 'Stark' children (except maybe Sansa but jury is out on her). I think he was a more interesting character (but that is more due to later books than the first one), but not necessarily 'better'.In terms of the way that he was treated by Catelyn I agree with a lot of the previous posteres. Catelyn is a member of the nobility and although having basterd children does appear to be a common thing the fact that it is being thrown in her face must be incredibly galling. Another poster brought up the fact that Catelyn was originally in love with Neds brother, so to not only lose the man you love but to have your husband cheat on you and have proof of it in front of you every day must be incredibly hard. In some ways I am surprised that she is as 'polite' as she is to him.
I do agree that what she says to him after Brans fall from the tower is incredibly harsh and unwarranted but she is an emotional wreck at this point, the vast majority of her family are leaving her whilst one of her youngest children is basically on deaths door - a fear she had obviously had as she asked him not to climb again. She is just lashing out and Jon happened to be the best scapegoat for it.
TBH I think she is blaming Jon for things which aren't his fault - she ought to be blaming Ned but she can't do that. So although Jon does deserve fair treatment (he never asked to be born out of wedlock) given the various circumstances he was, unfortunately, never going to get that.
Eva wrote: "I LOVE JON X"babe he's mine called dibs first
"Jon Snow is a lot better than Ned Stark's children."Why would you even think that? What makes him better?
If anything, he abandoned the family to serve in some backwater useless order of celibate runts.
"If anything, he abandoned the family to serve in some backwater useless order of celibate runts."He didn't abandon the family. The choice was compelled upon him by his father - the idea planted by Catelyn.. He tried to escape a few times to return to his family but Samwell consistently interfered.
I disagree that Jon is "a lot" better than his half siblings (barring Sansa) but he is on par with them and, perhaps, may exceed them in destiny. We just have to wait and see.
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