Abusive Relationship

[Cynthia]

I agree that Rhett and Scarlett's relationship isn't healthy. It's fueled by too much passion, the violent kind. But they truly are my most favorite characters.

[Tytti]

Carina wrote: " My query was never about whether there is abuse but why it isn't spoken about. "

Because most people don't think there is abuse?

IIRC Rhett encourages Scarlett to speak her mind, knows already that she has a girlish crush to Ashley, and Scarlett, even though she doesn't always like what Rhett has to say, has to admit that Rhett tells her the truth and respects him for that. For me that isn't abuse, just two strong-willed inviduals who are used to getting their way, always.

[Carina]

Tytti wrote: "Carina wrote: " My query was never about whether there is abuse but why it isn't spoken about. "

Because most people don't think there is abuse?

IIRC Rhett encourages Scarlett to speak her mind,..."

Thanks Tytti - not sure what IIRC means, but you have answered the question - a lot of people do not see the relationship abusive (which actually also applies to Twlight... go figure).

TBH when I first read the book I never said "that was an abusive relationship", I just didn't think it was a great one - I really wish I could recall where I read about it being interpreted as abusive so I could post a link, but it got me thinking that what some people see as abuse others don't.

[Tytti]

IIRC = if I recall/remember correctly (I read it over 20 years ago, I was 11 at the time.)

Of course Rhett might sometimes act slightly patronizing but then again, he is 33 and Scarlett 16 when the book starts. In the end Scarlett has grown up but is still only 28 when Rhett is 45. In fact I always found Rhett to be supporting and sometimes even proud of Scarlett, even when other people were criticizing her. They weren't perfect people but perfect people are usually boring anyway.

Twilight doesn't interest me one bit but I quickly googled and found some posts about the issue. They do seem to bring up some points that for me sound like abuse. But then again I don't remember anything like that from GWTW. Of course GWTW is a book for adults and Twilight is for... non-adults... so that might affect how they are treated.

[Carina]

Tytti wrote: "IIRC = if I recall/remember correctly (I read it over 20 years ago, I was 11 at the time.)

Of course Rhett might sometimes act slightly patronizing but then again, he is 33 and Scarlett 16 when th..."

Thanks for explaining IIRC.

Again you make a point I had not considered about the intended age range (I read both books when I was 17 so had not thought of that).

I think Cynthia says it quite well in her above post: ... Rhett and Scarlett's relationship isn't healthy. It's fueled by too much passion, the violent kind but at the same time he was incredibly supportive of her as you say when others weren't.

I believe another poster said that this was a realistic portrayl of a relationship from that period of time, as opposed to an idealised one.

[Tytti]

Carina wrote: "
I believe another poster said that this was a realistic portrayl of a relationship from that period of time, as opposed to an idealised one."

I wouldn't say it was realistic for its time, we have no way of knowing that anymore. In fact I doubt it, it might have been too modern. But in any case it felt more real because it wasn't idealized, well maybe a little.

[Kim]

Carina wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Hang on, Rhett rapes her?? Seriously? Good Grief I've been reading the wrong Gone with the Wind if that happened in it!!!"

You recall when Scarlett was getting drunk and Rhett comes..."

We don't really know what happened in that bedroom after Rhett carried Scarlett up the stairs because it's not written in the book. But the next day Scarlett wakes up happy and singing, and mentions that she reveled in what happened between them the night before. My take on it was that it was the first time Scarlett had actually enjoyed sex.

[Tialisa]

I've often avoided certain romance authors who turn downright abuse into a love story but in this novel I didn't get severe abuse only dreadful communication and a couple of egos that wouldn't stand for losing control. Scarlet didn't know what she wanted until she lost it and Rhett fought to gain control over a woman he loved for her rebeliousness. There are far worse modern love stories than Gone With The Wind.

[Pauline]

To my mind, the word 'abuse' in this thread is being abused. I have known many abused women and Scarlett does not fit the bill. She has no bruses or broken bones, just sometimes a hurt ego when he refuses to act the way she wants him to the way every other man except Ashley does. I think a reality check is needed here.

[Kirby]

Meghan wrote: ""She screamed, stifled against him and he stopped suddenly on the landing and, turning her swiftly bent over her and kissed her with a savagery and a completeness that wiped out everything from her mind... He was muttering things that she did not hear, his lips were evoking feelings never felt before. She was darkness and he was darkness and there had never been anything before this time... Suddenly she had a wild thrill such as she had never known; joy, fear, madness, excitement, surrender to arms that were to strong, lips too bruising, fate that moved too fast. For the first time in her life she had met someone stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break... Somehow her arms were around his neck and her lips trembling beneath his and they were going up, up into the darkness again..."(Chapter 54)"

seeing this section quoted like this has changed my mind- I don't think it was rape.

[Meghan]

Kirby wrote: "Meghan wrote: ""She screamed, stifled against him and he stopped suddenly on the landing and, turning her swiftly bent over her and kissed her with a savagery and a completeness that wiped out ever..."

No. She was definitely a willing participant ;)

[Meghan]

Michele wrote: "Meghan wrote: "I didn't see their relationship as abusive. Scarlett was a shrew of a woman and she was so unbelievably frustrating, but Rhett didn't beat her (which at that point in time would have..."

I'm not saying it's okay! Don't misinterpret what I said. I was pointing out it wouldn't have been an unusual thing if he had. Remember it's the 1860s, women were still considered a man's property. I don't like it anymore than any other girl does, but it was what it was and the social norms would have allowed it.

[C.D.]

Meghan wrote: ""She screamed, stifled against him and he stopped suddenly on the landing and, turning her swiftly bent over her and kissed her with a savagery and a completeness that wiped out ever..."

I'm glad you posted this, Meghan. That was how I remembered the scene. I couldn't figure out where rape came from.

I actually do think of GWTW as a romance, although I realize it's much more than that alone. The character flaws and fights and misunderstandings in this book set up to be a great romance. Someone wrote earlier, if books were written about perfect relationships they'd be incredibly boring. I agree. Give me characters I want to shake! I read purely for entertainment, btw.

[Clarissa]

I think another factor in why people complain about abuse in 50 shades and Twilight is because those books have been sweeping the nation now and in the recent past, and the trend is for the media and also regular people to ask: "Are women reading books in which the female role models are no good?" Gone with the wind is still popular but it is a cultural artifact from the past, a classic, so people don't question it as much. Also in Gone with the Wind so much more is going on, in the other titles you mention the abusive relationship is pretty much all that the book is about.

[Tialisa]

Did anyone mention that in the 1860's it was perfectly legal and acceptable to beat your wife? Women had no rights and Rhett allowed Scarlett her own business which at the time would have been unheard of. For the era this book takes place in it's overly tame.

[Meghan]

Tialisa wrote: "Did anyone mention that in the 1860's it was perfectly legal and acceptable to beat your wife? Women had no rights and Rhett allowed Scarlett her own business which at the time would have been unhe..."

Yeah. I did.

[Mochaspresso]

I think the issue gets cloudy because she wasn't willing at first, though. He presses on and she eventually gives in. Yes, she does enjoy it, but it also makes it very hard to justify the "No means no." mantra.

I have noticed on some goodreads discussions that when some people are faced with similar circumstances in another book (particularly one that they didn't like) some tend to see very similar actions quite differently. For example, what about Tess of the D'urbeyvilles? People seem to be quite divided on whether Alex rapes her in the beginning. Scarlett and Rhett's relationship is justified as "violent and passionate". So is Heathcliff and Cathy's in Wuthering Heights, but the relationship in books like Fifty Shades of Grey, Twilight and Beautiful Disaster are generally considered abusive by those who are critics of them. When asked to justify their opinions, some of the justifications given are exactly the same elements that were present in GWTW or in Tess or in WH. Besides the times settings, the only difference to me seems that GWTW, Tess and WH are generally regarded as a classic novels.

[Samantha]

It is a great novel because it has 1. well-developed characters that seem real to the reader 2. an excellent historical context which shows the often neglected perspective of the south 3. lots of drama.

Pauline, whether Scarlett enjoyed it or not, she absolutely was raped by a drunken Rhett.

[Robbie]

For me, Scarlett and Rhett where not what GWTW was all about, but were merely analogies of the bigger issue. Scarlett represented (early in the book anyway) the spoiled, entitled and somewhat lazy Southern aristocracy who needed slaves to maintain their lifestyle. Rhett represented the northern capitalistic ideal that any man is worthwhile if he is industrious and determined. Rhett's treatment of Scarlett as the book wore on represented the general "rape" of the South by first the Yankee army, then later by northern carpetbaggers who flocked in to capitalize on the defeated south, bringing tremendous heartache in their wake. Rhett's disdain of her and her lifestyle while still caring about her was a good analogy of how northerners in general felt about the southern aristocracy at the time. The downfall of the South, and Scarlett's eventual acceptance of her altered circumstances with her famous "I'll never be hungry again" line represented a new South rising from the ashes. There's more, so much more, but I'm generalizing here due to lack of time and space. The point is, what abuse there was in the relationship directly reflected what was going on in the world around them at the time.

Gone with the Wind was a period piece about war, relationships and redemption. Rhett and Scarlett were, each in their own way, representatives of the two sides of the battle. Abusive? Well, 1.1 million people died as a result of the conflict, which makes the "abuse" Ms Mitchell portrays through her characters look pretty tame in comparison to the big picture she was trying to convey.

Compare it to Twilight? Sorry, I never read Twilight. I did read FSoG, and I can't say it's fair to compare them. Aside from the writing in FSoG being juvenile in comparison, the subject matter can't be compared either. As best I could tell, FSoG was only about the sexual relationship between a high powered man and a naive girl. Taken in context, I really can't see a comparison at all.

[Carrie]

SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!

I watched the movie first, and then I read the book; when ‘Scarlett’ came out I read it right away. After reading ‘Gone with the Wind’, I felt like I understood Scarlett and her decisions, I didn’t when I saw the movie. (No offense to the actors or director) I get why she married the men she did , (I get why she "boarded" her kids with her sister (to keep her sister and Tara in money. Had she just given money to her sister it would have been looked like charity and that did not fly back then.) She fought tooth and nail for Tara and her family (both by blood and by love), keeping it away from the tax men and carpet baggers AND keeping it running. She knew if Suellen had married Frank Kennedy that she would not be in a position to keep the whole lot of them going. (Only Suellen and Frank would have been alright had they married and from Franks business sense they would not have lasted long) Scarlett encouraged building and sold lumber, she ran the store and kept the books. I liked Frank but he was not the business man Scarlett was, if she had not been hampered by her womanhood I think she would have owned most of the county. As it was however she did the best she could with what she had available. I may not agree with her methods but I understand the intentions.
As for loving the blond dimwit Ashley, (sorry, even I don’t get the attraction here, he may have been pretty and an all-around good guy but, his lack of backbone and common sense kills it for me) well we can't help who we love nor can we always tell it from infatuation. It is clear early on Scarlett and Rhett are perfect for each other. He did not let her get away with most things and what he did let slide he told her to her face. 'I know and you know this is stupid and your spoiled but I think it is funny watching you scramble, even though I love you enough to never let you fall'.. She loved Mellie so much and took her responsibility to Mellie's last request so hard she let the whole town treat her badly because no one would have believed her anyway. Sure she could have left town and washed her hands of it just sending money to support Tara but that would not have fulfilled her promise as Ashley would have seen anything she did as Charity so she had to stay.
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!
Scarlett has our heroine ending up in Ireland trying to raise a daughter who she loves. Time has smoothed some of the edges from Scarlett but not so many that she is a different person. She goes through hell and I won't tell you the two big reveals but I will say I love her daughter...
‘Rhett’, (okay I am still reading this one... or I was before I misplaced the book.) this is as I recall (it has been a few months since I lost the book) takes place during part of GWTW and recounts what Rhett was thinking at specific points. How they fell in love, why he is who he is and why he is the perfect man for Scarlett.
GWTW is definitely NOT a 'romance' novel. Neither protagonist is near perfect. They have flaws and I think the reason it IS so popular and classic is because most people can identify with at least one person in the story. A spoiled girl with no cares who loses her entire world but fights like a wet cat to get it all back only to find it will never be the same, continues to fight to ensure no matter what she and hers would never be at the mercy of money again and through it all finds true love only to lose it???? Sounds damn interesting to this woman. LOL (yeah it's my favorite book.. lol)

[Michael]

Meghan wrote: "(nobody on this thread has ever had angry sex?).."

You caught my eye with this one. Angry sex, if the woman decides she enjoyed it or at least was truly willing; "date rape" or real rape if she wakes up in the morning and decides she didn't and wasn't? How would the man actually know, until way too late?

He wouldn't, would he? It could be labeled anything, making him either a hero like Rhett -- or, as with today, a rapist and destroying his life.

[Sindhu]

Those in abusive relationships are the last ones to realize they are. Hence, family and friends should STEP IN.

[Ellen]

I have more trouble with the portrait of slavery in the novel. I can't get past the racism-it wasn't written in the 19th century and there is nothing to balance the white, Southern point of view.

In regards to the historical period, my problem is that the book seems to celebrate women as manipulative, objectified creatures (powerlessness leads to either passivity, shrewishness or both) and slavery as a not-so-bad state for clearly witless people who are better off being "taken care of."

I love the book anyway but these are real obstacles for me that stop me from rereading the book more often, especially as I get older for some reason.

[Charlotte]

Historical fiction is supposed to reflect the morays of the time period in which it is set. Sometimes people living in modern day cannot understand or accept the history part of it. People did not have the same values we have today. Trying to understand that and present it is a great challenge for the historical fiction writers, who sometimes feel that they have to write for today's morality (in order to sell it). Margaret Mitchell's book has a real problem going in that regard since neither she nor her character lived in the present day world. That being said, I personally loved the book and Scarlett, even though she sometimes frustrated me when she would not forget about Ashley and realize that she loved Rhett. Historical fiction is valuable for what it can teach us about the past as long as the author is able to figure out what living then was like and then to present it as was--a formidable job.

[[deleted user]]

Teresa wrote: ""The book caused some scandal in it's day (1936), because of the use of words like "damn" (gasp)and "whore"(heaven help us!). The New York Society for the Suppression of Vice objected to Scarlett b..."

Source? I'm interested in learning more!

[[deleted user]]

Alex wrote: "I haven't read the book but seen the film a couple of times so have a vague idea what it's about.

Firstly I think there are other examples where relationships between men and women go beyond roman..."

You put some of the message the film failed to portray (at least without multiple observational rewatches)that was one of the central themes of the book.

But I really recommend you read it at least once, there are so many messages and commentaries that Mitchell brilliantly blends in with the plot and character development that you can't find in the movie. Its one of the book where if you even just reread your favorite scenes you'll find something new every time or at least find yourself pondering. I only read it once (this year) but each time I read the final chapter for example even without analyzing it I find myself pondering so much. Imagine what more in my future rereads of the book from cover-to-cover!

Read it when you have the chance and please tell me what messages you've spotted or what ideas and thoughts you developed from merely on completion of the book! I'd love to hear your take considering you already spotted one of the book's main themes from watching the movie a few times which alone is impressive.Many people watched the Selznick's adaptation like a thousand times but never get that message, thinking the story is all about the failed romance between Rhett and Scarlett (which never was the primary theme of the story in the first place).

Oh if you're interested I published three threads recently here on the discussion board that came to my head after rereading some scenes. They're not even scratching the surface of how complex and such a human story Gone With the Wind is!

[Mrsbooks]

Scarlet was NOT raped by Rhett. Definitions of rape:

1.the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Rhett may have started the night on a forceful note but Scarlet LIKED that. If she hadn't have LIKED that, she wouldn't have woke up the next morning all smiles and sunshine, she was SINGING for goodness sakes. She may not have WANTED to have sex for her own selfish head strong reasons, but those reasons quickly fled after they started getting into it.

However, I am curious to know if Rhett WOULD have raped her, if she hadn't given in. To me that's a more interesting question. Not whether what happened was rape or not, since it wasn't. Women who are raped don't wake up the next day all happy like the sun is shinning out their ass and like they've been reinvigorated. Come on!

Anyways, to the posters original comment about why the abuse isn't talked about so much in GWTW.

I believe because the abuse wasn't one sided. Scarlet and Rhett were abusive to each other. This makes it seem less, I don't know the right word, but less serious I guess. Of course it isn't less serious, in fact it's doubly awful but you have to admit that when 2 people willingly abuse each other it's different than one dominating the other. Scarlet and Rhett both gave as good as they got.

I also feel that we HAVE to make allowances for a time period. To not do that is to not make allowances for another culture. It doesn't make things right. It's history though. Those who want to ignore history, I guess all the power to them. But can you imagine a character in an old book that's politically correct for our time? It just doesn't work. It's not real. I personally like realism. So when I read a book based upon an older time I don't expect the leading lady/man to be this awesome person who meets today's standards. I expect him to be very flawed, and not flawed from the ways of today either. I mean flawed with conceptions that have taken dozens if not hundreds of years for humans to work their way passed.

[S]

GWTW, like Wuthering Heights, is often viewed as a great romance, but neither of them are. GWTW is about two rather unlikeable people, although their abrasiveness helps them survive the war, and Reconstruction, where some of their colleagues do not. And the couple in Wuthering Heights is SEVERELY dysfunctional, but that's a discussion for another time.

[Carrie]

Jocelyn, I beg to differ, on Scarlets intelligence. Scarlett was very smart. To smart actually and she got into trouble trying to play the role of the "little woman" she saved the store when husband number one was running it in to the ground, she figured out how to make a profit building homes for people with little money, not only that she insisted that they be safe. In doing this she kept her promise to Melly by only using Ashleys lumber yard (which he was letting fail before she came along). She left her kids with her sister and brother in law so she could send money to take care of the kids (and a little more to help take care of her sisters family) she had to do it this way to avoid the pride people had about accepting charity. The way she did things made it look like she was cold and money hungry, smart maybe she was money hungry at first but it was so she could feel safe and take care of Tara and her family. (which included Mammy and Big Jim (?) I forget his name but get families former space that saved her in "carpet bagger" town..) Scarlett was very intelligent, she also knew that to get things done she could not depend on anyone but herself. That is why she and Rhett had a hard time, she could not trust anyone by the time she figured or she could trust Rhett it was to late Rhett had given up on her. He was tired of being her back up plan, to Ashley. When she finally realized the Ashley she had put on a pedestal was not the same Ashley she was looking at she realized he was not strong enough, sheer needed and loved the ONLY man who knew her and loved who she truly was.. But it was as I said to little to late. She truly loved Rhett and I can't recall who told him (Rhett) to leave Scarlett alone when she lost the baby, but I remember she cried for him in her fevered sick bed.

[Carrie]

That was not rape darling, that was something else entirely. And Scarlett awoke the next day thinking she and Rhett had a new start, so she was happy, Rhett however thought that was a good bye and so he took Bonnie away. It its a true love story in that rereading it tippy see all these missed connections where if one person had looked back, asked why or was just a little more clear they could have been happy. But hind sight is 20/20 and that its the way life works. I myself just got married this last spring because my husband and I had 18 years of near misses. If either of us had been able to look past our broken hearts any on the umpteen times we broke up and got back together we would not be celebrating our first Christmas married this year but perhaps our 10th or 15th.. Love is hard, and this is a fantastic and enduring love story BECAUSE its not cut and dried. They do not magically get locked in a closet until they admit their feelings, they do not have a happily ever after and a lot of real world turmoil is going on in the back ground affecting everything. It is left open at the end... Does Scarlett track him down and beg him for one last chance? Does Rhett get to the train station and change his mind? Or will they both be lonely forever? I read Scarlett because I wondered what other people thought and I liked the way it ended.. Things from GWTW that I had not thought about affected the story in ways I had not dreamed.. I liked it and I recommend it to anyone who wonders what happened next.

[Betsy]

Carina wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Hang on, Rhett rapes her?? Seriously? Good Grief I've been reading the wrong Gone with the Wind if that happened in it!!!"

You recall when Scarlett was getting drunk and Rhett comes..."

She was also happy and contented the very next morning which seems strange if she was truly raped.

[S]

Let's put it this way: the film, at least, has dated in its portrayal of such a scene. It is amusing, however, to note how the movie clearly shows that-within 1939 censorship rules, Scarlett seems to have enjoyed herself. Again, not PC.

[Danica]

The entire point of the novel is to show what war does to people, be they selfish children(like Scarlett) or rakes like Rhett. At the time, when people were married, a man forcing "his rights" on a woman wasn't considered rape. (Right or wrong. The next day Scarlett actually had more interest in Rhett, and realized that her life with him was actually good. She was a spoiled child like woman, who had a shrewd business mind and a willful streak that often got her in trouble. She was an imperfect person in an imperfect world. The novel is considered great because it encapsulates the horror of war and it's affect on the human condition, while relationships drive the plot they are not the point of the book. This isn't some YA twinky vampire series (no matter how popular and enjoyable those books may be)...you cannot compare the two.

[Jeanette]

Carina wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Hey, that's interesting, Carina. Admittedly I've never read Gone With the Wind, but from what I hear, it's portrayed as abusive, right? Scarlett is portrayed as a moron and pays the..."

Calling it a rape scene is a bit much. The next morning, Scarlett reflects on the experience: "[he] used her brutally through a wild mad night and she had gloried in it."

She reflects on how a lady isn't supposed to enjoy sex, then admits to herself "stronger than shame was the memory of rapture, of the ecstasy of surrender. For the first time in her life she had felt alive, felt passion as sweeping and primitive as the fear she had known the night she fled Atlanta, as dizzy sweet as the cold hate when she had shot the Yankee."

The thought of her next meeting with Rhett has her nervous and excited.

This is not in any way the reaction of a rape victim.