The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion
Thrillers of any Kind
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What does it take to create a villain?
I agree with Scout about Stephen King opening his innr demon when writing his villians. I am at present reading The Stand and the character Harold Lauder Starts off as a reasonably ok young man all be it a bit geekie, as the book goes on he becomes a very desturbed individual.
These type of characters are what tends to hold the reader in suspence wanting to keep going just to see what they will do next.
For me, a good villain can almost seem real. That makes him or her scarier - the idea that they might actually exist somewhere.
The most effective villains IMO are those who have the greatest ability to get in the head of the protag and by extension into the head of the reader. In fact, not just get into the head, but establish some sense of intimacy. That intimacy then creates great vulnerability. Scary. Someone mentioned Hannibal Lecter. Great example. Hard to write.
It does put me off when I'm reading a book and I feel that the author just cannot hide his disdain for the villain. I think, as an author, you have to love your villains as much as your heroes. Murderers are by far and away the most interesting people I've ever met in real life. Not because I admire them. Of course not. But they are endlessly fascinating. They really do have a different set of ethics from the rest of us. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, they seem to think that they are entirely normal. But that's part of the fascination.
Mark wrote: "It does put me off when I'm reading a book and I feel that the author just cannot hide his disdain for the villain. I think, as an author, you have to love your villains as much as your heroes. M..."
Hey Mark
I totall agree! And how surprised I am about that mix of love and hate inside when I write Moriarty. So cool! And sometimes scary, too.
But always enjoyable.
Annelie
Jerry wrote: "The most effective villains IMO are those who have the greatest ability to get in the head of the protag and by extension into the head of the reader. In fact, not just get into the head, but estab..."Hi Jerry,
that is what fascinates me, too. Especially when creating such a villain and the guy plays with MY grey matter. Its really hard to create, this feeling of hate that transforms into understanding and attraction while the story unfolds. Just to punch the reader and the protag into the face/gut/heart once the villain shows his evil again in the final scenes.
I love to be a crime writer. And I'm totally astonished that this threat is still going!
Cool!
Annelie
Mark wrote: "It does put me off when I'm reading a book and I feel that the author just cannot hide his disdain for the villain. I think, as an author, you have to love your villains as much as your heroes. M..."
And sometimes you get the opposite - the author loves the villian too much and the story suffers as a result.
The villain should be more mysterious than the other characters. But you should deal with him as any other character. The author must love the villain but he should make readers hate him.
True, R.M.F. Moderation in all things.Konstantina, I have to disagree. The act of 'making' a villain hated and 'mysterious' is what often leads to cartoon-like characterisation. Only my opinion.
Mark wrote: "It does put me off when I'm reading a book and I feel that the author just cannot hide his disdain for the villain. I think, as an author, you have to love your villains as much as your heroes. M..."
As a writer who has struggled with the challenges of getting people to warm up to my dubious protagonist - my character, One Eyed Jack is a professional blackmailer - I have found that it is a fine line to walk. I have had to purposely keep Jack both conflicted and mysterious. He knows that what he does is wrong, but then he sees so much else wrong in the world that he cannot help himself from doing what he does. It must have worked because most of my fans tell me that they are cheering for him by the end of the book.
For me, a villain cannot be a cardboard character. I like dimension and I also like a villain I can relate to and feel some emotional connection, even if I'm horrified by his actions. I want to be able to understand them and think, "Gosh, yes, I can see why he would act that way because of what happened to him." One pitiful villain that stands out for me is The Other in Dean Koontz's Watchers. He is so tormented and we can understand his murderous rage and why he kills. We all have monsters inside us, dont we? Which is funny, as I just wrote a blog post about this! http://blog.donnagalanti.com/wp/the-m... And this is how I fashioned my own villain, X-10, in my paranormal suspense novel A Human Element.
Annelie wrote: "Hum... I think most readers didnt want Hannibal Lector dead, because for some bizzare reason he appeared "sexy" enough. Maybe because he was dominating in every sense? He had the ability to control..."I think Hannibal was a great villain as he had his own code too (screwed up as it was!). He was actually a protector of Clarice and loyal to her with his own brand of code. Giving a villain a code to live by, that's justified, makes them more human too.
R.M.F wrote: "Sandi wrote: "Mark wrote: "The interview with Lee Marvin is quite famous. I think the interviewer asked him how he played villains. Lee said he didn't 'play' villains. He just played men trying to ..."I love Lee Marvin and James Scott Bell just had a great post on him and Lee's background related to writing, on The Kill Zone - check it out
http://killzoneauthors.blogspot.com/2...
Annelie wrote: "Hum... I think most readers didnt want Hannibal Lector dead, because for some bizzare reason he appeared "sexy" enough. Maybe because he was dominating in every sense? He had the ability to control..."I think we can create a villain to be human - but still horrify the readers. Giving them a great backstory helps, one filled with desires not met, heartache, loss. And giving them a soft part - something that is relatable. In my novel A Human Element my villain X-10 (an imprisoned experiment) does horrific things but he wants one thing so badly, to have a name and be called Charlie 'cause nice guys are called Charlie. Something to relate to. I think then, as readers, perhaps we feel horrified at ourselves that we can justify what they do :)
Annelie wrote: "Hum... I think most readers didnt want Hannibal Lector dead, because for some bizzare reason he appeared "sexy" enough. Maybe because he was dominating in every sense? He had the ability to control..."
The Hannibal Lecter of the book was abhorrent and not a bit sexy. Clarice was a victim in the book. Shades of Gray, sick.
Brenda wrote: "The Hannibal Lecter of the book was abhorrent and not a bit sexy. Clarice was a victim in the book. Shades of Gray, sick."I dont see Hannibal as sexy either, just sick. Interested to see how others perceive him in this role.
Hummm.... Maybe I was the only one who thought that there was supposed to be some kind of sexual tension between the protagonists? In real life, most such criminals are very sex driven (Ted Bundy).
Annelie wrote: "Hummm.... Maybe I was the only one who thought that there was supposed to be some kind of sexual tension between the protagonists? In real life, most such criminals are very sex driven (Ted Bundy)."Annelie, yes - I can see the sexual tension underlying between Clarice and Hannibal. That has different meaning for me altogether than thinking Hannibal is 'sexy'. And you are right - villains are often sex driven for many reasons. :)
Yeah, that was me trying to put myself into the heads of the villains:-)
Annelie wrote: "Yeah, that was me trying to put myself into the heads of the villains:-)"
Ha ha! You must be a writer then :)
The best villains are the ones we can relate to. If we can see their point of view or understand their motivation... that's huge. Also, one with dimension. Not everything about them can be bad or reprehensible.
Like all characters in a great book, I think motivation is pretty important for the creation of a villain. Even if something it's as simple and basic as greed, the motivation drives the villain to do the things they otherwise normally wouldn't (then they'd be just another character, or even a protagonist).
In my opinion, the best kind of villains are the ones you never see coming. They wear their humanity like a suit. Over the course of the story, damage is done to that suit, cuts and tears that give us a glimpse of what lies beneath the surface but they are never fully exposed. It's the facade and how well they wear it that makes them so scary.
Dianne wrote: "The best villains are the ones we can relate to. If we can see their point of view or understand their motivation... that's huge. Also, one with dimension. Not everything about them can be bad or r..."
Completely agree. Maybe not so much as relate, but at least understand and somewhat support their motivations.
Completely agree. Maybe not so much as relate, but at least understand and somewhat support their motivations.
Dianne wrote: "The best villains are the ones we can relate to. If we can see their point of view or understand their motivation... that's huge. Also, one with dimension. Not everything about them can be bad or r..."Disagree. The best villians are those with cool wheelchairs. Think Davros in Doctor Who and think Gary Oldman's character in the Hannibal film. His name escapes me, but that particular villian was better than Lector!
To me, the best villains are the ones that do not give away all of their secrets in one book. They have complex natures that keep you guessing. And over time they also evolve, becoming dominate in your thoughts, hooking your emotions and strangling your will to avoid them.
Johnny wrote: "To me, the best villains are the ones that do not give away all of their secrets in one book. They have complex natures that keep you guessing. And over time they also evolve, becoming dominate in ..."That's true as well, but a wheelchair (with built in stuff) is the icing on the cake!
There's villains who are just plain evil, and we may like them for the breathtakingly awful deeds they do, but they're quite obvious. Then there's the ones who are seemingly normal until some life-changing event crops up in their life, and they resort to villainy to get them out of a spot, but it just gets worse and they dig themselves deeper into the pit of crime. It's the psychology behind them that interests me – or is evil in us all if we're pushed?
Nick wrote: "There's villains who are just plain evil, and we may like them for the breathtakingly awful deeds they do, but they're quite obvious. Then there's the ones who are seemingly normal until some life-..."I agree Nick, the twist of life and complexity of a character is what keeps me reading (and writing). I LOVE and HATE writing my villains, because they get underneath my skin, make me sick, bleed me out, and at the same time, I can relate to them having turned "evil".
But evil wheelchairs sounds brilliant, too. (@RMF)
:-)
Sometimes heroes are just too dull, and the complexity of the villian carries the story. Spiderman is living proof of this.
I've always rather liked the idea of the good guys being worse than the bad guys if that makes sense? If the bad guys care more about you than the good ones, then where does that story take you?
So many good points here. Something else that can make a great villain is if he or she is something we've never seen before. It would be best, of course, if he meets any number of other criteria of a good villain -- e.g, having the ability to walk around among us while we unsuspecting potential victims don't recognize him for what he truly is -- but somebody who is showing his evil in ways we haven't seen before and in ways most of us couldn't imagine. I don't necessarily mean simply rising to gorier heights. I simply mean something we haven't seen. Jack the Ripper was mentioned earlier. I'm fascinated by that case but not because of how horrible the crimes were per se, and not just because it's still a mystery (though I'm fascinated by that, too), but by the fact that the killer taunted the police with his "Dear Boss" letters. The thing about Jack the Ripper is that, at the time, he was like nothing anyone had seen. So his story really stuck with us. So, as an author, I'd love to conceive of a villain who could demonstrate a new dimension of evil -- again, not necessarily new depths of it. That kind of villain has a chance to be remembered.
I think a villain with a driving passion for his goal at all costs and a callous lack of consideration for other human beings makes him scary--the take all prisoners type--someone who could easily say "You're dead to me." Kevin on Shark Tank (ABC reality TV show) is super scary to me.I like what Stephen King said a long time ago in an interview I saw or read---He told the reporter that when he was a boy, he'd keep a trapper keeper full of photos and newspaper clippings of murderers just to see what they looked like--what they had in common; namely their dead looking eyes. I wonder what his teacher thought of that? lol
Lisa wrote: "I think a villain with a driving passion for his goal at all costs and a callous lack of consideration for other human beings makes him scary--the take all prisoners type--someone who could easily ..."His teacher died in mysterious circumstances :)
Mark wrote: "And I forgot to say, Annelie, that if the villain is the primary protagonist, he's known as an anti-hero."I am not sure an anti-hero is necessarily a villain. An anti-hero to my mind is a protagonist who does not fit the stereotype of the hero. Dustin Hoffman in the movie Midnight Cowboy is a classic anti-hero, IMO.
I think the scariest villain is the one you cannot identify. At the end of the book you think you have the evil doer in custody or they are dead, but you don't see the Moriarty behind your focal character. Even if the true villain is only in the mind. Look at Jack the Ripper. No way the guy could still be alive, but I doubt anyone would walk a dark alley off the main road without once in a while think about that sort of man following them. No longer able to kill, but has inspired lunatic copycats for long past a century now.Yet, to manage to focus on a bad guy or gal while hiding the truth of another hand in the shadows is not as easy a task as one might think. Especially in tying many different attacks to one source.
K.J. wrote: "I think the scariest villain is the one you cannot identify. At the end of the book you think you have the evil doer in custody or they are dead, but you don't see the Moriarty behind your focal ch..."Good post.
Hi, I starred writing my own stories nearly a year ago, and I have kept an eye out on anything that makes great heroes and villains. My impression of a villain that's great is a villain that has the option to be redeemed. I'm not saying that the villain will ever be redeemed, but they have opportunities to make the decision to change. Other villains or the same ones may also seem like they aren't a villain at moments until they turn around and backstab the hero. The villains that are so evil they have to die really doesn't get my attention. If my impression is that the character must die, I might not care much about the story. A villain often gets defeated by the hero, but defeat comes in many forms. There's a wise man's phrase that says "The best way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend." A villain is often defeated, but sometimes you have a hero that knows that killing the villain might make them no different than he or she is. Sometimes the villain is the way they are because that's just a fact of being for them. The story I'm practicing to write has many villainous characters, but the big bad villain responsible for all the pain in the story is something the readers will have to wait for.All I'm saying is that when the villain has the option to choose a path of good, but often doesn't take it, the hero has more opportunities to confront the villain. The best stories have the villain and hero interacting, and the hero doesn't always have to kill the villain. A villain might just see the heroes struggle, and he or she's choice to help them or not might just make difference in the story, and it's resolution. The villain aiding the hero more and more might make them end as a changed character. They overcome their demons, and they find a new purpose. Purpose is something many seek in life. The more the villain chooses to hurt the hero when they have the chance to help adds drama. The reader will look at the story and realize that the villain could have helped a character hanging from a cliff, but instead they grind their foot on their fingers until they fall and die. The character's death is witnessed by the hero, and he gains greater resolve to defeat or kill the villain because the character was a close friend or family member. The hero might even find out something about the villain that might cause them to have internal conflict. They struggle knowing the villain can change, but the hero has seen too much to be willing to let it happen.
Imagine being the hero with the villain's life in your hands knowing that he or she can change given the chance, but at the same time, you've seen so many chances present themselves where the villain doesn't choose the right path. However, you could throw in another twist. One of the characters closest to the hero has acquired the villain's compassion and concern. Maybe enough the villain would change. Could you kill the villain then.
Twists like this is a huge part of a popular tv series called Once Upon A Time. A villain know as the Evil Queen, Regina, adopts the grandson, Henry of her most hated foe Snow White, Mary. If Henry cares about Regina just as much as he cares about Snow White, Prince Charming, David, and his mom Emma. Can they really just kill Regina. Imagine what that would do to Henry. Would they just create another villain bent on vengeance for killing the step mom that raised him for most of his life.
The hero is a force of light, and the villain is a force of darkness. And just like the fairy god mother warns in kingdom hearts birth by sleep, "It's dangerous to fight darkness with light", Aqua asks why, and to paraphrase the response it's light that casts shadows on them. Trying to avoid spoilers. The hero is often the reason for the villains evil, and fighting them head on might only cast more shadows on others. The problem than lies in the issue that the only way to prevent more evil that exists in the villain is to not kill the villain or fight them head on. What will your story become if the end for the villain is changed by all of this.
A villain is simply a wicked or malevolent person. The consequences to their actions should equal the pain they cause another. However, there are creative options a writer can choose from to strengthen their plot and story, and it doesn't always include the villain dying. It would be nice to just kill every evil person on the planet, but that's impossible much like it's impossible to remove every hero or good guy on the planet. A great story in my opinion is a story where the hero finally faces the villain, and they realize that, if they simply kill this person deserving of death, there might just be another villain waiting around the corner. I think the way a villain should be, also includes the hero, whoever he or she is. Their conflict should answer the question "How can I put an end to Evil?" A question with few answers, but the answer can help a writer understand the end of their villain. Evil and Good is something that is. It flows up and down the beach like the tides. We will never be able to completely remove it from the world, but our endings for the villain can illustrate an end or foreshadow that endless struggle. The hero can defeat the villain, or to the readers displeasure, the villain kills off the hero. Either way it really is your story and your decision.
My very favorite villain is Iago in Othello. A true Machiavel or simply driven by jealousy or maybe something else.
Mod
Mod
"My impression of a villain that's great is a villain that has the option to be redeemed."
Some people are villains because in the story, things have happened where they could have had that option earlier in life and didn't take it.
Hmmm, a Villain is a far cry from a sociopath/psychopath, and I think you have hit it on the mark, Nancy; it someone who knows what's right and what's wrong, but willfully chooses to pursue self-gain and may be a narcissist. It is an excellent topic: good grief. I could go on and on and on.
Alec;Shakespeare was a master of villains.
Nancy wrote: "My all-time favorite villain is Count Fosco in Collins' The Woman in White. He is the epitome of villainy! If you haven't read this book yet, you should."One of the very first mysteries.
I would say to anybody creating a villain, that framing things in black and white only stifles characterisation. Grey areas are much more interesting from the dramatic point of view.
Mod
Very true. I know I prefer it that way!
Make your antagonist human. One dimensional monsters are no fun. The more readers can relate to the villain, the more successful the character. Also remember, everyone is the hero in their own story... that includes the villain. The best antagonists don't see themselves as bad people... they are just doing what they have to do.
The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Moriarty (other topics)The Woman in White (other topics)
The Woman in White (other topics)
Othello (other topics)
A Human Element (other topics)
I think a villain can start off as a bad guy or can become a bad guy in the course of the story. In my stories they become bad guys. In most thrillers (I think) they're bad guys from the beginning and are, in fact, the impetus for the plot — "Stop the bad guy" equals the story.