Twilight
discussion
Are people who dislike Twilight "obsessed" with Twilight?
"We do it for for the joy of trolling". The 9th grader smiles smugly and leans back with an overwhelming feeling of satisfaction. Congratulations, you have won the internet. Here's a cookie.
I am sorry for that people. Note to self: Never let your friend troll on your goodreads account. Ever.
Diane wrote: ""We do it for for the joy of trolling". The 9th grader smiles smugly and leans back with an overwhelming feeling of satisfaction. Congratulations, you have won the internet. Here's a cookie."
I will give said cookie to her on Monday. ( Actually it would be Teusday. Darn time change.)
@Jocelyn: Well to me, manipulation sounds like a really negative term. Though I can't think of anything else at the moment. Coaxing is better but it's too mild a term, it's more flattery-based.
Well, anyway, everyone is different and what works for some may not work for others. I disagree with them not being honest with each other. For example, they were able negotiate the terms of their sexual intimacy and wedding. That requires communication and honesty.
You can have teasing and "seduction" and still be honest with each other.
@MinecraftCreeper: Haha it's okay. xD*whispers* The cookies are raisin instead of chocolate chip. Mwahahahaha.
*Bites into cookie, wondering if this is true* Aggghhhh!
Alex wrote: "Please, don't let me stop you from living the patriarchal dream. Don't educate yourself, don't have a career, spend your entire life cleaning and organising a house for your man and child. I would hate to be accused of being unfeminist so I'll gladly support your right to do that, but in return I think you should allow my right to think that's a little bit sad and to maybe be allowed to tell other people that I think they should have aspirations and goals in life. Deal? "Wow.. no deal whatsoever.
Diane wrote: "@Jocelyn:
Well to me, manipulation sounds like a really negative term. Though I can't think of anything else at the moment. Coaxing is better but it's too mild a term, it's more flattery-based.
W..."
Perhaps "induce?" We could say that Edward induced Bella to overcome her fear and go with him. Or "persuaded."
Yeah, I suppose that they weren't totally dishonest with each other. I actually thought the marriage was some more manipulation/persuading/coaxing/inducing, because Edward hangs the promise of sex before her, therefore manipulating/persuading/coaxing/inducing her to marry him when she clearly doesn't want to. But in the end, they DID find a way to work it out so they could both be happy. It's a win-win situation.
Well to me, manipulation sounds like a really negative term. Though I can't think of anything else at the moment. Coaxing is better but it's too mild a term, it's more flattery-based.
W..."
Perhaps "induce?" We could say that Edward induced Bella to overcome her fear and go with him. Or "persuaded."
Yeah, I suppose that they weren't totally dishonest with each other. I actually thought the marriage was some more manipulation/persuading/coaxing/inducing, because Edward hangs the promise of sex before her, therefore manipulating/persuading/coaxing/inducing her to marry him when she clearly doesn't want to. But in the end, they DID find a way to work it out so they could both be happy. It's a win-win situation.
Jocelyn wrote: "when every single female character, or almost very single one, is a stay at home mom/girlfriend"I'm not even sure what you're talking about there. I'm pretty sure Bella was the ONLY stay at home mother in the series, and she was only a mother for a few months throughout the course of the story.
Alice and Rosalie, I'm pretty sure, were the only "stay at home girlfriends", as you put it.
I don't see how three is almost all of them.
Meh, if I join a discussion about how I didn't really like Twilight, for me, it's actually debating practice. Thinking of being a lawyer and knowing both sides of the argument and being able to refute the opposition is a good thing to know in debating:) And since I don't like Twilight, I practice with other GR-ers to improve my debating skills xD
Plus, who cares why we argue about it?
Plus, who cares why we argue about it?
Cassie wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "when every single female character, or almost very single one, is a stay at home mom/girlfriend"
I'm not even sure what you're talking about there. I'm pretty sure Bella was the ON..."
Haha, no, I didnt mean stay at home girlfriends, I meant stay at home moms OR unrealistically devoted girlfriends, as in two separate things.
If I recall correctly, Esme was also a stay at home mom. Leah Clearwater pined after Sam. Emily was also a housewife, there's this scene that really stands out in my mind when her sole role in the book is to bake muffins (or was it cookies? I can't remember) for all the big strong werewolves and Bella. Victoria's sole motivation is her mate James. Etc.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about there. I'm pretty sure Bella was the ON..."
Haha, no, I didnt mean stay at home girlfriends, I meant stay at home moms OR unrealistically devoted girlfriends, as in two separate things.
If I recall correctly, Esme was also a stay at home mom. Leah Clearwater pined after Sam. Emily was also a housewife, there's this scene that really stands out in my mind when her sole role in the book is to bake muffins (or was it cookies? I can't remember) for all the big strong werewolves and Bella. Victoria's sole motivation is her mate James. Etc.
Jocelyn wrote: " I actually thought the marriage was some more anipulation/persuading/coaxing/inducing, because Edward hangs the promise of sex before her, therefore manipulating/persuading/coaxing/.... "Yeah but remember, it was both of them who wanted something, and both of them who didn't want to do that thing that the other wanted.
Edward wanted marriage and didn't want to have sex while Bella was human. Bella wanted to have sex while she was human and didn't want to get married.
They compromised.
And bringing this up again: "But it is worth mentioning that Bella could be whatever she wanted if she so chose. Esme is an interior designer as well as mother. Alice is a fashion consultant, stock market person (haha, whatever you all those). Rose is a mechanic. "
Also unrealistically devoted is probably right. Since vampires and bonding and you can only have one mate or something like that. It works both ways though, the men are devoted to their women as the women are to their men.
It's true that Bella could be whatever she wanted. Feminism, for me, is not the ability to choose, it's the kind of choice you choose to make. This probably makes me look very narrow-minded because it's such a...strict, I suppose you could say...model of a strong woman for me. It's just personal though, I wont try to shove it down your throat. :) I did think though that Bella should be choosing to be something other than being Edward's soul mate. Every single little thing she does simply HAS to have some sort of Edward in it for her to agree to do it. Like going to college, for example.
Mostly it's the underlying message of women being unable to be happy without a man in their lives, not just that a few don't have ambitions--because as you pointed out, some actually do. Like I said, Rosalie wasn't able to find any happiness before Emmett. Esme had a very New Moon-like situation before she met Carlisle. Leah refuses to get a life, instead being kicked around in a pointless love triangle between Emily and Sam.
Mostly it's the underlying message of women being unable to be happy without a man in their lives, not just that a few don't have ambitions--because as you pointed out, some actually do. Like I said, Rosalie wasn't able to find any happiness before Emmett. Esme had a very New Moon-like situation before she met Carlisle. Leah refuses to get a life, instead being kicked around in a pointless love triangle between Emily and Sam.
Actually, Esme was an interior designer and an arcitect (And yes, she did actual work for clients throughout the course of the story) and Emily was a teacher at the reservation high school and Community College. While it's true that she baked muffins once, I don't think that makes her a bad person.
Dorothy wrote: "You know, I was really fucking angry with you until you declared your gender. Now I get it. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. You've read books on the subject. Oh, my. Good for you on educating yourself. Not everyone who disagrees with your point of view is uneducated. You might do well to remember that.."You know, I was really fucking angry with you until you declared your gender. Now I get it. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. You've read books on the subject. Oh, my. Good for you on educating yourself. Not everyone who disagrees with your point of view is uneducated. You might do well to remember that.I'm glad you get it because I'm quite in the dark as to what it is you "get".
I'm not here to make judgement on whether or not you are educated , and what books you might or might not have read. I took a guess that you hadn't read many because you're unable to respond to what I'm saying except through anything other than anger and I don't think that anger facilitates very good debate.
You don't really understand why feminists think that Twilight is an anti-feminist novel because you're completely unwilling to try and understand what feminists think and how they view the world. I'm not going to reiterate the same point ad infinitum for you to ignore, tell me I'm wrong and then tell me you're angry without you even trying to actually rebut everything that I've said.
What I thought was reprehensible was that women are brought up to believe that their best/most natural/correct option in life was to become a stay-at-home mother. I have a lot of personal experience of this as it happens, having come through the comprehensive system in England (I'm a working class kid) and seen first hand the lack of aspiration and education that the working classes generally have (though it's by no means limited to one class). I've seen in my life over and over a dominant attitude that says men can be x y z (insert career choice here) whereas women can be maybe z but really what we wanna know is when are you gonna have kids? Conversations with other people with me would always begin "so what are you doing with your life" whereas conversations with my girlfriend would always be "so, you're gonna have kids - when?" When her inevitable response was "I'm not going to do that" she'd be told that she was unnatural and unfeminine. All women are destined to become mothers, apparently.
Believe it or not, I have as much experience regarding men, women and relationships as you do. It was these experiences that led me to want to read up on and to understand a topic, so I could get a better understanding of what was happening, how and why it was wrong. I'm sorry if it sounds arrogant to you but the evidence of this conversation says to me that you're blatantly not interested in finding out about the issue, which I think is really sad, personally.
Jocelyn wrote: "It's true that Bella could be whatever she wanted. Feminism, for me, is not the ability to choose, it's the kind of choice you choose to make. This probably makes me look very narrow-minded because..."Fair enough. At least you added "for me" in that. xD
Well I suppose it's understandable to want to look for certain types of "strong women" or "role model type women". Though I just feel Bella has been too harshly judged and criticized for going for what she wants.
And if you wanna look at it another way (this is something that Mickey mentioned in another thread), it's not really only the women side of things. Singles in twilight are generally depicted as unhappy or unfulfilled. Both the men and the women needed each other for happiness.
Methinks Meyer just likes writing about couples.
Cassie wrote: "Actually, Esme was an interior designer and an arcitect (And yes, she did actual work for clients throughout the course of the story) and Emily was a teacher at the reservation high school and Comm..."
Oooh, thanks. Details. I forget that Emily was a teacher.
We live in a world, created by men, in which men are defined by their penises, which represent virility, aggression, forthrightness, intelligence, power, the drive to succeed, and women by their vaginas, which represent caring, honest, kind, motherhood. If you're born with one you are one type of person, another and you're something else.I think that a lot of women don't see this anymore because it's more subtle and less in your face than the trad 50s advertising "look at meee, I'm a mum with an ironing board" style sexism, but it's still very much there. Women in movies/books are so often portrayed as madonna/whore "types" defined by their relationship to men, whilst men are portrayed as the passionate, dominant, successful hero.
This relates to Twilight because Bella fits neatly into the pattern even though the book is written from her perspective. it's possibly worse because of this. At the start of the novel Bella is an independent girl until she meets Edward and inexplicable falls in love with him. There's no interaction, character development or anything that makes this happen, she simply falls for him based on his otherworldly good looks, a motivation that is repeated ad infinitum to the end of the book. Within the space of about 50 pages Bella has defined herself through a male cypher, she's not interested in herself as a project anymore, she's only interested in Ed Cullen. In turn, Ed is interested only in "protecting" her ... for no reason other than he just happens to like her.
This is the most facile and stupid description of love you'll read and it turns male/female relationships into being that of the protected and the protector. Bella's entire personality is expressed through this facile relationship.
I don't think that Meyer is deliberately writing to be anti-feminist, I think that this is probably how she grew up and how she understands relationships. I find this all far more creepy than Ed spying on Bella when she sleeps (though that's a fascinating incident). I'm surprised that people can't or don't want to see what an unhealthy relationship dynamic this is for women now ... why Twilight is such an appalling book for teenagers right now because it's a book that is trying to take male/female relationships back to a simpler time in which men were the protector and women the cared for mother. it's certainly an alluring prospect because it's so safe and simple, we can all be dazzled by one another's beauty, we don't need to worry about making complex choices or to understand the different ways in which we could define ourselves. men are men, women are women, they love. (and then go on to lead really boring lives) The End.
It's also very hetero-normative, isn't it?
Alex wrote: "What I thought was reprehensible was that women are brought up to believe that their best/most natural/correct option in life was to become a stay-at-home mother."I dunno why you're getting this from twilight. A lot of the women from Twilight have jobs. I mentioned them. Cassie mentioned them.
It's sad that people STILL expect all women to have families and become mothers. But why bash the women do want that and only that?
Sure you say you're not anti-housewifery, but you don't think keeping a household and parenting are enough contributions as a person, do you? You sure implied as much.
"Women have been deprived by the patriarchy for hundreds of years from being anything other than wives or mothers, so it's a positive thing to encourage them to realise that they can - and even should if they want to live an authentic existence - have goals and aspirations beyond that"
So we women can't "live an authentic existence" if we don't have goals and aspirations beyond motherhood?
I don't see how they is feminist at all.
And I think the protector/protectee thing has much to do with the vampire/human dynamic, does it not?But say, a couple has this dynamic. What is wrong with that?
You seem to think it's outdated and should not exist ever. Dude. That's not that way it works. People choose their own relationships, the dynamic, the terms, etc.
It's not bad to have a protective man. It's not bad to be a housewife.
Samantha wrote: "Don't call us "haters". Just because not everyone loves this stupid series doesn't mean we hate it just to hate it. The majority of us that have rated it one or two stars have actually read the boo..."Well said!
Alex wrote: "Since women are 50% of the population issues regarding the portrayal of women in fiction are ever-present whether you happen to want them to be or not. You cannot write a book without touching on ..."I wish there was a 'like'button on Goodreads :)
Jocelyn wrote: "Meyer is basically reusing and portraying what women have been believed to do for thousands of years, which is, essentially, shutting up, bowing down to your man, and staying at home. Edward being chivalrous doesn't really relate to the gender roles as a whole. You're right that men are also devoted to their women. But the difference is that the men in Twilight act on their motivations, while the women stay at home, sit on their butt, piss and moan endlessly about how they're not able to do anything. Bella whines about how she can't do anything instead of ACTIVELY looking for something to make herself more useful. etc. The men in Twilight are active, and the women in Twilight are passive.
And this is the part where I ask, when in the books did Bella whine- OUT LOUD to anyone? ... Oh.. whats that? Never? My bad. When did anyone female in the books whine ever?
Not to mention what? what? the women sit at home on thier butt? Really? Alice BTW happends to be one of the major bread winners of the family. Bella had a job. What does Emmett, Edward or Jasper do that is work related? So its ok for them to "sit on thier butt" but more should be expected out of the women.
More on the gender roles: Alice is a very powerful fighter, since she's able to predict her opponent's moves, yet she stays out of the fight. Why? Because she's a girl. No logic, no practicality in that, just because she's a goddamn girl. It's almost like Meyer's going out of her way to solidify the gender roles"
She doesn't stay out of the fight. When did she stay out of the fights? Am I remembering the fight incorrectly? I could be wrong, I'm having one of those moments where I think I've lost it. I do recall Alice saying Jasper was trying to be everywhere at once, after she in fact was fighting.
Katrina wrote: "Are you saying that people who finish a book they're not into are displaying abnormal behavior?"I think its abnormal. It's all a matter of opionon. It also depends on the cirumstances. Who cares if it is abnormal. Whats abnormal to me, maybe perfectly fine to you.
Heidi wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Meyer is basically reusing and portraying what women have been believed to do for thousands of years, which is, essentially, shutting up, bowing down to your man, and staying at hom..."
Bella did whine when she was with Alice and I believe it was Jasper? She was saying, stop rescuing me, blabbity blah.
As for Alice not fighting, I already admitted that I was wrong and Dorothy was right, I had not correctly recalled the plot point.
Bella did whine when she was with Alice and I believe it was Jasper? She was saying, stop rescuing me, blabbity blah.
As for Alice not fighting, I already admitted that I was wrong and Dorothy was right, I had not correctly recalled the plot point.
Alex wrote: "We live in a world, created by men, in which men are defined by their penises, which represent virility, aggression, forthrightness, intelligence, power, the drive to succeed, and women by their va..."
Well said!
I don't hink it's the fact that all the women have boyfriends or husbands that bothers feminists, it's the fact that women in here--especially Bella--are SOLELY defined by their relationship. They may have ambitions and occupations, as Diane and Cassie pointed out, but without their man they are nothing. Without Edward, Bella has no reason to live, no reason to really strive for anything in life. So it's not the fact that the women are couples, it's the fact that when they're single they find it impossible to be happy.
Well said!
I don't hink it's the fact that all the women have boyfriends or husbands that bothers feminists, it's the fact that women in here--especially Bella--are SOLELY defined by their relationship. They may have ambitions and occupations, as Diane and Cassie pointed out, but without their man they are nothing. Without Edward, Bella has no reason to live, no reason to really strive for anything in life. So it's not the fact that the women are couples, it's the fact that when they're single they find it impossible to be happy.
Heidi wrote: "Katrina wrote: "Are you saying that people who finish a book they're not into are displaying abnormal behavior?"
I think its abnormal. It's all a matter of opionon. It also depends on the cirumsta..."
Do you and Mickey mean LITERALLY abnormal, or just weird?
I think its abnormal. It's all a matter of opionon. It also depends on the cirumsta..."
Do you and Mickey mean LITERALLY abnormal, or just weird?
Jocelyn wrote: "No, it's not mostly the seducing that bothers me (though it does bother me quite a bit), it's the fact that Bella clearly doesn't want to because of a real psychological fear, and Edward acts like he's doing some sort of test to see how devoted she is to him. I wouldn't have a problem if Edward just said, "Come on now, I won't let you get hurt."Part of me wonders if you've ever been in a relationship. People do stuff for thier partner all the time they don't want to. And sometimes they are seduced into it. If my Fiancee had his way I'd be following him around like a lost puppy. I love him. But I like my alone time too.
Alex wrote: "Also, I would criticise any man that didn't have aspirations to educate himself. I don't think it's very authentic to expect someone to look after you and to pay for you. I think we should strive to live life in as meaningful and purposeful way as possible."That would beg the question:
What do you consider a meaningful or purposeful life?
Note:
It's not that I disagree on the general notion, women fought hard for their right to get equal education and job opportunities - if they take the latter is up to everybody themselves, though - and one should not easily give that up that.
The point is, and this seems to be a major rub for most feminist minded readers, that you can have an education and still decide to live happily as a stay at home mom, whereas Bella poses it as a black & white affair of either/or.
With a proper education you have something to fall back on when it should turn out that stay at home mom isn’t what you really wanted from life.
Jocelyn wrote: "Do you and Mickey mean LITERALLY abnormal, or just weird?"I can't speak for others. I can only draw conclusions from my life, not Mickeys, not yours. And in my life, when I don't like a book, when its lost all its joy or I've come to hate it I put it down. Unless circumstances make me mozy thru it. ie - My work as a program where someone can go to classes to learn how to do the job better. People have to read books and write book reports pertaining to what they read and saw in the class. After you go to so many classes you get a raise.
So yes to repeat, since I myself am no longer in school, the only books I read are for recreation. I consider it silly - for me personally to keep reading a book that doesnt bring me joy.
Jocelyn wrote: "Bella did whine when she was with Alice and I believe it was Jasper? She was saying, stop rescuing me, blabbity blah.I usually bring my Nook everywhere. I'm rereading the part where she supposedly is whining the only thing I see close to that is she was hysterical. It says that, no where does it say "Bella whined blabbity blah". Basically shes freaking out because shes fearfull for Edwards life.
Guess all the times I've been hyserical when my Fiancee hasn't called makes me whiney and weak. If you have a routine everyday that your lover veers from, it can freak you out. Not saying thats what Bella had, but I'm saying I can understand what shes going thru in terms of freaking out.
Diane wrote: "I dunno why you're getting this from twilight. A lot of the women from Twilight have jobs. I mentioned them. Cassie mentioned them.It's sad that people STILL expect all women to have families and become mothers. But why bash the women do want that and only that?
Sure you say you're not anti-housewifery, but you don't think keeping a household and parenting are enough contributions as a person, do you? You sure implied as much."
Am I bashing those women? I thought that I was bashing the patriarchy that's dis-empowering them.
In all honesty I don't actually meet, in real life, that many women who would honestly say to me "I'd be content and happy if this were the path that were laid out to me". As I think I've already stated, this isn't about me saying "I believe that your individual choice in life is WRONG" it's about me saying that it's wrong to make the decision to live this life in-authentically. Twilight is an excellent text on how to live an inauthentic life.
Gerd Wrote "That would beg the question: What do you consider a meaningful or purposeful life?"
One in which you make decisions and create projects free from the restraints and restrictions of others. One in which you define yourself, rather than be defined by the aspirations of other people.
Gerd Wrote The point is, and this seems to be a major rub for most feminist minded readers, that you can have an education and still decide to live happily as a stay at home mom, whereas Bella poses it as a black & white affair of either/or.
With a proper education you have something to fall back on when it should turn out that stay at home mom isn’t what you really wanted from life.
You seem to see an "education" as a tool that you use to "get stuff". Doesn't matter that plan A failed I have my "education" to fall back on. Huh? That really makes no sense. One takes from an education a whole lot more than a piece of paper to pass around at parties.
Alex wrote: "You seem to see an "education" as a tool that you use to "get stuff". Doesn't matter that plan A failed I have my "education" to fall back on. Huh? That really makes no sense. One takes from an education a whole lot more than a piece of paper to pass around at parties. Depends on the person. There are some people who don't have that piece of paper and are doing just fine in life. Others that do have the paper and did noting with it. Depends on the person, thier drive, what they want to do with thier life and sometimes luck. Most people further thier education "to get stuff". A lot can be covered with "stuff".
Heidi wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "No, it's not mostly the seducing that bothers me (though it does bother me quite a bit), it's the fact that Bella clearly doesn't want to because of a real psychological fear, and E..."
If it was really teasing, then Bella would have been laughing or giggling or something. Remember what I was saying about the connotation of the words that Meyer uses? I can tell that it's supposed to be teasing and cute, but for me it doesn't come off that way. Bella gets "nervous" before Edward seduces her. It is put into the kind of perspective that you name, but comes off a different way. For me, at least.
To be honest, no, I have never been in a relationship. My comments and thoughts on Bella and Edward's relationship is based mostly on common sense and observation of my friends who do have relationships.
If it was really teasing, then Bella would have been laughing or giggling or something. Remember what I was saying about the connotation of the words that Meyer uses? I can tell that it's supposed to be teasing and cute, but for me it doesn't come off that way. Bella gets "nervous" before Edward seduces her. It is put into the kind of perspective that you name, but comes off a different way. For me, at least.
To be honest, no, I have never been in a relationship. My comments and thoughts on Bella and Edward's relationship is based mostly on common sense and observation of my friends who do have relationships.
Heidi wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Bella did whine when she was with Alice and I believe it was Jasper? She was saying, stop rescuing me, blabbity blah.
I usually bring my Nook everywhere. I'm rereading the part whe..."
That brings me back to my old statement: the women in Twilight are passive. Bella whines about it, but she doesn't do anything about it. She has desire, but she does not act on that desire. She's fearful for Edward's life...then she should freaking do something about it! She should convince Alice and Jasper to go along, or band them all together and go after James as a group of seven vampires.
And I have to bring up another thing: this is fiction. If you try to make fiction into real life, you're going against your own work. Fiction has a separate purpose. Your being hysterical has nothing to do with Bella, because you are in real life, and Bella is fictional. Fiction is partly about portraying things a certain way, putting different perspectives into different lights using plot points and characterization.
I usually bring my Nook everywhere. I'm rereading the part whe..."
That brings me back to my old statement: the women in Twilight are passive. Bella whines about it, but she doesn't do anything about it. She has desire, but she does not act on that desire. She's fearful for Edward's life...then she should freaking do something about it! She should convince Alice and Jasper to go along, or band them all together and go after James as a group of seven vampires.
And I have to bring up another thing: this is fiction. If you try to make fiction into real life, you're going against your own work. Fiction has a separate purpose. Your being hysterical has nothing to do with Bella, because you are in real life, and Bella is fictional. Fiction is partly about portraying things a certain way, putting different perspectives into different lights using plot points and characterization.
Jocelyn wrote: "If it was really teasing, then Bella would have been laughing or giggling or something. "You dont have to be laughing or giggling to tease. And I never said that. I think you ment to respond to someone else.
Heidi wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "If it was really teasing, then Bella would have been laughing or giggling or something. "
You dont have to be laughing or giggling to tease. And I never said that. I think you ment..."
I don't mean you have to laugh and giggle to tease. Again, I was talking about the connotation and tone of the words that Meyer decides to use. If the scene was written in a different way I would have no problem with it.
You dont have to be laughing or giggling to tease. And I never said that. I think you ment..."
I don't mean you have to laugh and giggle to tease. Again, I was talking about the connotation and tone of the words that Meyer decides to use. If the scene was written in a different way I would have no problem with it.
Jocelyn wrote: "That brings me back to my old statement: the women in Twilight are passive. Bella whines about it, but she doesn't do anything about it. She has desire, but she does not act on that desire. She's fearful for Edward's life...then she should freaking do something about it! She should convince Alice and Jasper to go along, or band them all together and go after James as a group of seven vampires.And I have to bring up another thing: this is fiction. If you try to make fiction into real life, you're going against your own work. Fiction has a separate purpose. Your being hysterical has nothing to do with Bella, because you are in real life, and Bella is fictional. Fiction is partly about portraying things a certain way, putting different perspectives into different lights using plot points and characterization. "
No where in the book does it say she whines, so you are in fact incorrect when you say so. During panic attacks or hysteria, most people are passive. Thats a normal reaction. She calms down because Alice talks to her, and because Jasper makes her, which makes her distrustfull of them. Which I think she has every right to feel distrustful towards them at that moment, as she is being manipulated. You do remember how the story goes right? Flash forward a little bit -what does little miss passive do? She decides to not be passive and go get him herself.
Jocelyn wrote: "I don't mean you have to laugh and giggle to tease. Again, I was talking about the connotation and tone of the words that Meyer decides to use. If the scene was written in a different way I would have no problem with it. "And again at the end of the day, I never made a comment on the connotation or teasing in the first place. Look at message 508- i didnt post it.
It never says she explicitly whines. How does that make it any less whiny? Maybe I should reword that: she complains, not whines. (same thing, but the connotations are different.) She isn't portrayed as complaining, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for her to complain.
And like I said before: this is fiction. If you try to make it mimic real life, you're working against yourself. This isn't necessarily the same as being realistic. Being realistic is different from trying to mimic real life. This is fiction. This is escapism. When I read something like this, I don't want to read about an everyday girl reacting in everyday ways. I want an everyday girl to actually actively do something about the problem. That can still be realistic.
Isn't that the basic goal for almost every signal book out there? The conflict is the problem, the protagonist helps solve the conflict. If the protagonist does not solve the conflict (in fact, Bella further complicates the conflict by going after James on her own), then, well, your protagonist is a really weak protagonist.
And like I said before: this is fiction. If you try to make it mimic real life, you're working against yourself. This isn't necessarily the same as being realistic. Being realistic is different from trying to mimic real life. This is fiction. This is escapism. When I read something like this, I don't want to read about an everyday girl reacting in everyday ways. I want an everyday girl to actually actively do something about the problem. That can still be realistic.
Isn't that the basic goal for almost every signal book out there? The conflict is the problem, the protagonist helps solve the conflict. If the protagonist does not solve the conflict (in fact, Bella further complicates the conflict by going after James on her own), then, well, your protagonist is a really weak protagonist.
Jocelyn wrote: "It never says she explicitly whines. How does that make it any less whiny? Maybe I should reword that: she complains, not whines. (same thing, but the connotations are different.) She isn't portrayed as complaining, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for her to complain."With that rational she could be whistling between every breath. Just because she isn't portrayed as whistling, doesnt mean its impossible for her to whistle between breaths.
People LOVE Twilight but some people just cant stand it the other people they just Say they dislike Twilight so they can fit in and stuff... i dont see why they just dont admit that they Are OBSESSED with twilight like me :) and other fans! So whos going to see the new movie in November? I know i am
Melanie wrote: "People LOVE Twilight but some people just cant stand it the other people they just Say they dislike Twilight so they can fit in and stuff... i dont see why they just dont admit that they Are OBSESS..."
I can't really agree with that. People who dislike Twilight are not secretly obsessed with it, they actually dislike it. Most people anyway. There might be some out there who fit what your ay. But overall, they dislike it for genuine reasons, not because they want to "fit in," like you say.
I can't really agree with that. People who dislike Twilight are not secretly obsessed with it, they actually dislike it. Most people anyway. There might be some out there who fit what your ay. But overall, they dislike it for genuine reasons, not because they want to "fit in," like you say.
Heidi wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "It never says she explicitly whines. How does that make it any less whiny? Maybe I should reword that: she complains, not whines. (same thing, but the connotations are different.) S..."
I don't quite get what you're saying.
I'm talking about the connotation of a word. Does whistling, generally, have either a negative or positive connotation? Not really. Does whining and complaining? Yes. I'm talking about what kind of perspective something is put in. The book acts like Bella is brave, strong, and smart, but she comes off as stupid, cowardly, and weak for me.
I don't quite get what you're saying.
I'm talking about the connotation of a word. Does whistling, generally, have either a negative or positive connotation? Not really. Does whining and complaining? Yes. I'm talking about what kind of perspective something is put in. The book acts like Bella is brave, strong, and smart, but she comes off as stupid, cowardly, and weak for me.
Jocelyn wrote: "I don't quite get what you're saying. Ill try not to be as cryptic.
I'm talking about the connotation of a word. Does whistling, generally, have either a negative or positive connotation? Not really. Does whining and complaining? Yes. I'm talking about what kind of perspective something is put in. The book acts like Bella is brave, strong, and smart, but she comes off as stupid, cowardly, and weak for me. "
Whining or complaining she does neither. Thus any connotation is moot. It doesn't say she complains or whines. Shes reacting. Shes panicking. Maybe you project whining and complaining because thats what you would normally do? Though I think I would give you the benefit of the doubt and say you have seen it so many times on the message boards, you've agreed. And the part of the book you point out to support this, is when shes fearfull for Edwards life.
If your ever fearful for your loved one, be it father, mother, brother, lover - I would hope that you wouldn't find a weak moment and WHINE or COMPLAIN about it. Because if you do once, your a huge whiner, and apparently do it all the time. /sarcasm
Heidi wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "I don't quite get what you're saying.
Ill try not to be as cryptic.
I'm talking about the connotation of a word. Does whistling, generally, have either a negative or positive co..."
Maybe I should clarify, because you clearly aren't interpreting what I'm saying as I think you should.
I am perfectly okay with whining. Believe it or not. I REALLY AM. What I am not okay with are characters whining without doing something about that problem. If characters whine, I'm okay. If characters whine and do nothing else, I'm not okay. If Bella had said something like, "omg I'm worried for Edward...what can I do to help?" I wouldn't be criticizing her behavior.
I will repeat, one more time. This is fiction. I don't want to read about people reacting in everyday ways. Being brave isn't unrealistic. Ordinary characters are okay, but that character has to find a way to stand out in his or her own way, whether it's through bravery, heart, or perseverance. I will say again: every time you try to act like fiction is real life, you work against yourself. The way Bella acts is understandable, but not very good for writing fiction.
Like I said. It's a basic goal for ALL books to have 1) a conflict, and 2) a protagonist who tries to overcome the conflict. OTHERWISE WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF A FICTION NOVEL??? Bella does not try to overcome that conflict, she instead whines endlessly about it. These are two baaaaaasic requirements of a fiction novel. If an author does not meet these requirements, she/he needs to go back and fix it.
Again. If a book does not have a protagonist who tries to overcome that conflict...WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF FICTION, THEN???
Ill try not to be as cryptic.
I'm talking about the connotation of a word. Does whistling, generally, have either a negative or positive co..."
Maybe I should clarify, because you clearly aren't interpreting what I'm saying as I think you should.
I am perfectly okay with whining. Believe it or not. I REALLY AM. What I am not okay with are characters whining without doing something about that problem. If characters whine, I'm okay. If characters whine and do nothing else, I'm not okay. If Bella had said something like, "omg I'm worried for Edward...what can I do to help?" I wouldn't be criticizing her behavior.
I will repeat, one more time. This is fiction. I don't want to read about people reacting in everyday ways. Being brave isn't unrealistic. Ordinary characters are okay, but that character has to find a way to stand out in his or her own way, whether it's through bravery, heart, or perseverance. I will say again: every time you try to act like fiction is real life, you work against yourself. The way Bella acts is understandable, but not very good for writing fiction.
Like I said. It's a basic goal for ALL books to have 1) a conflict, and 2) a protagonist who tries to overcome the conflict. OTHERWISE WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF A FICTION NOVEL??? Bella does not try to overcome that conflict, she instead whines endlessly about it. These are two baaaaaasic requirements of a fiction novel. If an author does not meet these requirements, she/he needs to go back and fix it.
Again. If a book does not have a protagonist who tries to overcome that conflict...WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF FICTION, THEN???
Maybe your not comprehending. I am not ok with the whining. 1)conflict - her mother is being held captive. 2) Bella goes to get her mother whistle evading vampires and saving her love.
Feel better now?
Heidi wrote: "Maybe your not comprehending. I am not ok with the whining.
1)conflict - her mother is being held captive. 2) Bella goes to get her mother whistle evading vampires and saving her love.
Feel be..."
That's not overcoming the conflict, that's complicating the conflict.
Bella is going after James on her own. She has SEVEN superpowerful vampires on her side, and she goes after him on her own.
Yeah. Smart move.
And in the end, it's not Bella who overcomes the conflict, it's Edward who does it. That's not a heroine, that's a cowardly weakling. This book should have been written from Edward's point of view, since he is the one where the ENTIRE conflict of Twilight takes place: his fight to prevent himself from eating Bella, and his battle with James. Meyer has no clue on earth how to use POV.
1)conflict - her mother is being held captive. 2) Bella goes to get her mother whistle evading vampires and saving her love.
Feel be..."
That's not overcoming the conflict, that's complicating the conflict.
Bella is going after James on her own. She has SEVEN superpowerful vampires on her side, and she goes after him on her own.
Yeah. Smart move.
And in the end, it's not Bella who overcomes the conflict, it's Edward who does it. That's not a heroine, that's a cowardly weakling. This book should have been written from Edward's point of view, since he is the one where the ENTIRE conflict of Twilight takes place: his fight to prevent himself from eating Bella, and his battle with James. Meyer has no clue on earth how to use POV.
I don't think there obessed with twlght. They might get the concept. But its a REALLY GOOD concept
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To be fair, you're probably more right than I am, in this case. I remember Cassie saying something like, "they're manipulative, but they're manipulative in a way that works." It just seems unhealthy, in my view, because they never learn to be truly honest with each other as a couple, they only learn how to manipulate each other.