Twilight
discussion
Are people who dislike Twilight "obsessed" with Twilight?
@ Mickey
I think your inferencing skills need work as well.
What does my apologizing have to do with anything? Dude, I'm a kid. I'm immature, naive, and reckless. Sometimes I don't THINK about things before I do them. I admitted my mistake. You're saying that since I'm so stupid I had to admit my mistakes, I have no right to accuse you? I admit my mistakes, learn from them, and move on. What's wrong with making a mistake? What's wrong with ADMITTING I made a mistake? Do you expect me to be perfect? Why the heck are you referencing a mistake I agree with against me? I find it beyond ridiculous that you would mock me for something that I not only agree with you on, but also that I'd probably be expected to make. People take unintended offense all the time. Are YOU perfect? Did you ever NOT make a mistake? Seeing as you're mocking me for making mistake, I'll hypothesize that you are perfect and you never make mistakes.
Why should you convince haters of anything? Then aren't you doing the exact same thing you accuse us of? You accused us of engaging in conversations for no reason. Now you're engaging in conversations for no reason except to mock us. How is that any different?
If I'm so bored, read a book I like? Do you think my parents can take me to the library every single day? They need to work, and it's too far for me to bike or walk. So no, I can't.
Maybe I was exaggerating. I just felt like it was an ignorant question to say, "If you hate it so much, why don't you spend your time doing something you like?" That's what I am doing. I like listening to other people. It's fun. That's why I do it.
My reference to my ADHD is not for the reason that I'm "obsessed." I meant that I don't think about things before I say them sometimes, and I may come off as obsessed. I never said that my ADHD was an excuse for being rude. If I did, I would never have apologized for what I did, I would have said, "Oh, I'm ADHD, so it makes it okay, so guys, stop yelling at me!" I'm still practicing to learn how to control it in childhood so it won't be a problem when I grow up. Again, I'm a kid. Do you expect me to be perfect? Why are you criticizing me for acknowledging my mistakes? How does that make any sense? What kind of freaky logic are you using to criticize me for acknowledging my mistakes?
And how dare you to claim that I called ANYONE an idiot? I NEVER did. What. The. Freaking. Hell. Are. You. DOING!!!!
And why, for god's. Sake. Are you accusing me of using my ADHD as an excuse? When did I EVER do that? Show me an excerpt from one of my comments when I did that. Seriously. I dare you. Do it.
I reference my ADHD as an occasional reminder that sometimes some of the stuff I say may come off as offensive. As I said, I sometimes don't think about things before I say them, and people might take unintended offense. All I do with my references is to remind people that, if they feel offended, to keep that in mind and that I probably did not mean it.
You've actually had several fans who have spent a lot of time responding intelligently and succinctly to your posts, patiently explaining things from the book that you are just off-handedly dismissing.
Again. You're statement is biased. Did you even read my posts?
Why am I repeating this again?
Why can you not see this?
Your statement is horribly, horribly biased. You acknowledge fans on your side of the argument have pointed out evidence, but you do NOT acknowledge that the other side has ALSO pointed out evidence. Seriously, how can you not see this? Is it only the posts that Twilight fans put up that you're actually reading instead of skimming? We pointed out evidence as well. We're not "off-handedly dismissing it." If we were, then we wouldn't have been able to even a little bit successfully rebut your arguments. We would have said, "Whatever dude, it's still suicide no matter what you say." But we didn't.
Seriously. Why? Why are you making such an ignorant statement? Twilight fans HAVE "intelligently and succinctly" pointed out proof from the books, but so have the anti-Twilighters. From your statement it's like we anti-Twilighters had posted stuff like "TWILIGHTERS ARE SO STUPID THEY DESERVE TO BE MASSACRED!" News flash: people who dislike a book can also have some IQ points. Do you recognize this? You really don't seem to. Good GOD why don't you actually read our posts instead of skimming them.
I don't think my job here is to convince fans of my views. When did I say that? It was a suggestion. I didn't demand or order you. You once told me, "If you don't want to come off as a rude jerk, then don't act like it." Well, mocking people for their views instead of actually acknowledging that they are real people with opinions instead of brainless idiots who can't get a life is also acting like a rude jerk. What makes you think I give half a damn to whether any Twilighter speaks up or not? Seriously, what? Does a mild suggestion come off as a violation of your First Amendment rights? If it does, you need to turn off your computer, step outside into the sunlight, take a breath of fresh air, and ask yourself what the heck am I doing. Honest rebuttal to an argument is not a personal attack. It really isn't.
I don't get why you're scolding me for apologizing something. What makes you think that I think that apologizing makes everything okay? I don't think it "damages" my "reputation" at all. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Whether it does or not, guess what. I DON'T CARE. If I'm going to live my life worrying that people think I'm an idiot or a jerk no matter how hard I try not to be one, I never should have been born, because there's no use in living your life if you constantly worry what other people will think. Do you really think I care that much about what you think of me in any other case than if I offended you? How does apologizing and acknowledging my mistakes make me look stupid? It's called being objective. If I'm already a dumbass, I don't want to be even more of a dumbass. You contradicted yourself. You said that I should acknowledge the Twilight fans pointing stuff out, then say that acknowledging my mistakes make me look stupid. GOOD GOD MAKE UP YOUR FRIGGING MIND.
Again. I don't care about my "reputation." I'm sorry, but I cannot help but laugh my head off at that. It's downright stupid to think that anyone will care what you or anyone else thinks of them as a person. If you hate me no matter what I say, well, again. What makes you think I give half a damn? Really, what? Because I'd dearly, dearly, dearly love to know what convinces you so strongly. How do you know my motivations for saying something?
Maybe apologizing does NOT clean up everything. But it does clean up a little, especially if it's sincere. What else should we do? Should we track down your address and send tribute for you to forgive our horrible sins of unintentionally offending someone? Should we start a new religion and build churches in Your Holy Honor? Why don't you acknowledge people's apologies instead of mocking them? What in the hell more do you want? You don't have to forgive people. Just acknowledge that they, oh, actually are real human beings who make mistakes? SERIOUSLY?
For the last time. I DO NOT CARE. I acknowledge my mistakes because I want to improve myself. No argument is black and white. What's wrong with acknowledging that the other side has good points? Seriously, WHAT? Can you please tell me this? Because, since I am apparently a huge idiot with a pea sized brain I cannot process this. Is there anything wrong with being objective? How in the freaking HELL does being objective make you look stupid? What kind of logic do you use? Is your perception of reality so warped that if someone does not agree with you or acknowledges their mistakes they're idiots?
Since you are so bold to criticize someone for acknowledging their mistakes, I will once again assume that you are perfect, and you never make mistakes, and will always be pure and free of sin. Since someone accidentally offended another is so very wrong that you must mock them for it, you, Your Majesty, must be so very perfect.
How the heck did you twist what I said to this point? Why do you accuse me of saying things I'd never said?
*sigh*
I think your inferencing skills need work as well.
What does my apologizing have to do with anything? Dude, I'm a kid. I'm immature, naive, and reckless. Sometimes I don't THINK about things before I do them. I admitted my mistake. You're saying that since I'm so stupid I had to admit my mistakes, I have no right to accuse you? I admit my mistakes, learn from them, and move on. What's wrong with making a mistake? What's wrong with ADMITTING I made a mistake? Do you expect me to be perfect? Why the heck are you referencing a mistake I agree with against me? I find it beyond ridiculous that you would mock me for something that I not only agree with you on, but also that I'd probably be expected to make. People take unintended offense all the time. Are YOU perfect? Did you ever NOT make a mistake? Seeing as you're mocking me for making mistake, I'll hypothesize that you are perfect and you never make mistakes.
Why should you convince haters of anything? Then aren't you doing the exact same thing you accuse us of? You accused us of engaging in conversations for no reason. Now you're engaging in conversations for no reason except to mock us. How is that any different?
If I'm so bored, read a book I like? Do you think my parents can take me to the library every single day? They need to work, and it's too far for me to bike or walk. So no, I can't.
Maybe I was exaggerating. I just felt like it was an ignorant question to say, "If you hate it so much, why don't you spend your time doing something you like?" That's what I am doing. I like listening to other people. It's fun. That's why I do it.
My reference to my ADHD is not for the reason that I'm "obsessed." I meant that I don't think about things before I say them sometimes, and I may come off as obsessed. I never said that my ADHD was an excuse for being rude. If I did, I would never have apologized for what I did, I would have said, "Oh, I'm ADHD, so it makes it okay, so guys, stop yelling at me!" I'm still practicing to learn how to control it in childhood so it won't be a problem when I grow up. Again, I'm a kid. Do you expect me to be perfect? Why are you criticizing me for acknowledging my mistakes? How does that make any sense? What kind of freaky logic are you using to criticize me for acknowledging my mistakes?
And how dare you to claim that I called ANYONE an idiot? I NEVER did. What. The. Freaking. Hell. Are. You. DOING!!!!
And why, for god's. Sake. Are you accusing me of using my ADHD as an excuse? When did I EVER do that? Show me an excerpt from one of my comments when I did that. Seriously. I dare you. Do it.
I reference my ADHD as an occasional reminder that sometimes some of the stuff I say may come off as offensive. As I said, I sometimes don't think about things before I say them, and people might take unintended offense. All I do with my references is to remind people that, if they feel offended, to keep that in mind and that I probably did not mean it.
You've actually had several fans who have spent a lot of time responding intelligently and succinctly to your posts, patiently explaining things from the book that you are just off-handedly dismissing.
Again. You're statement is biased. Did you even read my posts?
Why am I repeating this again?
Why can you not see this?
Your statement is horribly, horribly biased. You acknowledge fans on your side of the argument have pointed out evidence, but you do NOT acknowledge that the other side has ALSO pointed out evidence. Seriously, how can you not see this? Is it only the posts that Twilight fans put up that you're actually reading instead of skimming? We pointed out evidence as well. We're not "off-handedly dismissing it." If we were, then we wouldn't have been able to even a little bit successfully rebut your arguments. We would have said, "Whatever dude, it's still suicide no matter what you say." But we didn't.
Seriously. Why? Why are you making such an ignorant statement? Twilight fans HAVE "intelligently and succinctly" pointed out proof from the books, but so have the anti-Twilighters. From your statement it's like we anti-Twilighters had posted stuff like "TWILIGHTERS ARE SO STUPID THEY DESERVE TO BE MASSACRED!" News flash: people who dislike a book can also have some IQ points. Do you recognize this? You really don't seem to. Good GOD why don't you actually read our posts instead of skimming them.
I don't think my job here is to convince fans of my views. When did I say that? It was a suggestion. I didn't demand or order you. You once told me, "If you don't want to come off as a rude jerk, then don't act like it." Well, mocking people for their views instead of actually acknowledging that they are real people with opinions instead of brainless idiots who can't get a life is also acting like a rude jerk. What makes you think I give half a damn to whether any Twilighter speaks up or not? Seriously, what? Does a mild suggestion come off as a violation of your First Amendment rights? If it does, you need to turn off your computer, step outside into the sunlight, take a breath of fresh air, and ask yourself what the heck am I doing. Honest rebuttal to an argument is not a personal attack. It really isn't.
I don't get why you're scolding me for apologizing something. What makes you think that I think that apologizing makes everything okay? I don't think it "damages" my "reputation" at all. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Whether it does or not, guess what. I DON'T CARE. If I'm going to live my life worrying that people think I'm an idiot or a jerk no matter how hard I try not to be one, I never should have been born, because there's no use in living your life if you constantly worry what other people will think. Do you really think I care that much about what you think of me in any other case than if I offended you? How does apologizing and acknowledging my mistakes make me look stupid? It's called being objective. If I'm already a dumbass, I don't want to be even more of a dumbass. You contradicted yourself. You said that I should acknowledge the Twilight fans pointing stuff out, then say that acknowledging my mistakes make me look stupid. GOOD GOD MAKE UP YOUR FRIGGING MIND.
Again. I don't care about my "reputation." I'm sorry, but I cannot help but laugh my head off at that. It's downright stupid to think that anyone will care what you or anyone else thinks of them as a person. If you hate me no matter what I say, well, again. What makes you think I give half a damn? Really, what? Because I'd dearly, dearly, dearly love to know what convinces you so strongly. How do you know my motivations for saying something?
Maybe apologizing does NOT clean up everything. But it does clean up a little, especially if it's sincere. What else should we do? Should we track down your address and send tribute for you to forgive our horrible sins of unintentionally offending someone? Should we start a new religion and build churches in Your Holy Honor? Why don't you acknowledge people's apologies instead of mocking them? What in the hell more do you want? You don't have to forgive people. Just acknowledge that they, oh, actually are real human beings who make mistakes? SERIOUSLY?
For the last time. I DO NOT CARE. I acknowledge my mistakes because I want to improve myself. No argument is black and white. What's wrong with acknowledging that the other side has good points? Seriously, WHAT? Can you please tell me this? Because, since I am apparently a huge idiot with a pea sized brain I cannot process this. Is there anything wrong with being objective? How in the freaking HELL does being objective make you look stupid? What kind of logic do you use? Is your perception of reality so warped that if someone does not agree with you or acknowledges their mistakes they're idiots?
Since you are so bold to criticize someone for acknowledging their mistakes, I will once again assume that you are perfect, and you never make mistakes, and will always be pure and free of sin. Since someone accidentally offended another is so very wrong that you must mock them for it, you, Your Majesty, must be so very perfect.
How the heck did you twist what I said to this point? Why do you accuse me of saying things I'd never said?
*sigh*
Jocelyn wrote: "How about her friends? The people she befriended at Forks? She's never mentioned any friends prior to moving, so I'm going to assume she didn't have any friends, or had few friends. How about those? In fact, she broods over this very choice in Eclipse. She acts sad about it...except it's her own choice she's making..."Her friends weren't the greatest friends. They were just lunch buddies who hung out outside of school maybe once or twice. I wouldn't consider anyone like that in my life to be my best friend.
But still, losing touch with your high school friends after graduating high school is the furthest thing from losing your future. It's really difficult to keep in touch after graduation, even if you remain human. Perhaps that's a harsh reality you'll have to face one day.
There's also the fact that Bella fears that she won't feel the same way towards her parents after turning into a vampire. Conveniently, it turns out perfectly. That's contrived, forced, and shameless abuse of Deus Ex Machina and plot convenience.
God made it happen? No, Bella made it happen. Bella made sure that she'd still be able to keep in touch with her father after becoming a vampire.
It's fine if you don't feel like "proving" anyone's love.
Really? Becuase it seems like you really want me to. I'll briefly touch on it.
For Edward, being around Bella made him feel a little more human again. She was someone who's mind he couldn't read. He couldn't just take whatever information he wanted, he had to have conversations and get to know her. That's not something he's been about to do since he was a human, thus, he felt human again. Edward's vampire power removed the need for person-to-person communication. With Bella, that need was renewed. (regardless of how frustrating it was for him).
For Bella, she found a strength she could admire. Not just the strength of a guy, but a strength that she could potentially posses.
I don't think that the fact that antis can't see any chemistry in Bella and Edward's relationship is ignorant. That's not even what I said. It has nothing to do with Twilight, Edward, Bella, antis, or anything. It's the narrow mindedness of what love can and cannot be.
Bella is supposed to be mature. Mature people would not do the things Bella does. People don't lose IQ points from being dumped, and while their perception of reality may be a little warped, I don't think it can be such a zombie-like state for over six months.
That's just a huge misunderstanding of neurology.
Factually, maturity has nothing to do with intelligence. IQ has very little effect on judgment.
Maturation develops as the prefrontal cortex develops. As the prefrontal cortex develops, its connection with the corpus callosum increases, causing the nervs that connect the left and right hemispheres to strengthen, making communication between the two sides stronger and easier. As a result, reasoning and judgment is a lot simpler and takes a lot less time and effort.
What you develop depression, anxiety, or anything overly stressful, activity in the prefrontal cortex significantly decreases, causing the left and right hemisphere to not communicate as strongly, causing impaired judgment.
Your IQ, or how much you learned in school does not matter at all.
She gets a free car, and her first thought is to bemoan how it isn't new.
She didn't complain at all. I don't know where you got that information. She didn't even complain about her car in the movie. She was actually very grateful that the car wasn't new. Firstly, she didn't want her father to spend too much money on her, secondly, she didn't want to stand out at school.
She's nervous for school, then the first person who's nice to her, she complains that he's greasy and overly helpful
I don't think noticing that someone has acne and oil in his hair is rude, but maybe that's just me. She didn't say he was too greasy and helpful to befriend. It was an observation, not a complaint.
She gets to know Edward for about half an hour, then fights tears on the way home
Actually, she didn't get to know him because they didn't speak.
BUT, it seems to me that she was fighting tears because Edward was trying to be transferred out of his Biology class just because she sat next to him. I don't think that's a very lovely first day of school experience.
thirty seconds before she was whining about how torturous it was to have so many people hankering after Her Majesty's Royal Attention.
Well, from experience, it is kind of annoying. I understand it completely. I think the type of girls that actually like all that attention from multiple guys are the girls who love how pretty they are, and are really full of themselves about it.
So why is she suddenly acting like she's the queen of the world and pissing and moaning about how unfair life is?
I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
Ida wrote: "Cassie wrote: "Ida wrote: "So, you think it’s normal to start hallucinating voices in your head, and to have nightmares that you wake up screaming from after a breakup? Think about it. Is this real..."
LOL Ida. It's true that Meyer is bashing her own work without knowing it. It's kind of frustrating to see how few people do not recognize that R&J is, in fact, NOT a romance, but rather a satirical tragedy to show the stupidity of teenage love. The more Meyer compares it to Romeo and Juliet, the more she proves how utterly stupid and pointless Bella and Edward's relationship is, which I find very entertaining.
You're probably right, maybe I should stop replying to Mickey...but it's still entertaining to see someone to continuously scold, belittle, insult, and bash me for things I never said. I like humoring people. I find it beyond hilarious. Though it's still probably going against my better judgement.
LOL Ida. It's true that Meyer is bashing her own work without knowing it. It's kind of frustrating to see how few people do not recognize that R&J is, in fact, NOT a romance, but rather a satirical tragedy to show the stupidity of teenage love. The more Meyer compares it to Romeo and Juliet, the more she proves how utterly stupid and pointless Bella and Edward's relationship is, which I find very entertaining.
You're probably right, maybe I should stop replying to Mickey...but it's still entertaining to see someone to continuously scold, belittle, insult, and bash me for things I never said. I like humoring people. I find it beyond hilarious. Though it's still probably going against my better judgement.
Ida wrote: "I see the appeal of uniqueness and originality, that does not have to involve such a callous treatment of serious issues like mental disorders and suicide..."I think it does, if you insist that's what it was.
Well yeah, I'm not stupid so I know that Romeo & Juliet is not intended to be the epitome of true love. I don't see how making reference to it is the same as bashing yourself. Edward bad talked romeo, Bella bad talked Juliet. Edward and Bella made fun of Romeo and Juliet.
Neither of them thought suicide was romantic... Edward was not flattered because he thought Bella killed herself. Bella was not flattered that Edward nearly killed himself.
In fact, the entire episode created chaos. Now, because of the carelessness, they were all nearly killed and they had the Volturi on their case. An extra deadline was placed on them, and their entire family was put in danger.
They didn't get off scotch free.
@ Cassie
I didn't say that God made it happen. That doesn't mean it's not plot convenience. Bella worried that her status as a vampire would change her actual emotions and feelings and perspective of her parents. Conveniently, it turns out fine.
I AM fine if you don't feel like "proving" their love. I never said you had to. I stated what I thought. I stated my perspective on the subject. I honestly don't care whether you want to or not.
Maybe Bella DID make Edward feel human again...but this brings up another question. How is Bella so ~*special*~ that she's the only human in a century who has those private mind powers? Bella is supposed to be a normal, average girl. She insists it. The narrative insists it. Even Meyer keeps insisting it. I'm not saying this is a plot hole, technically it's not, but I still find it implausible and contradictory to what half the book keeps insisting.
How about the reason BELLA is in love with Edward? Besides his incredibly seductive voice, liquid topaz eyes, godlike beauty, and marble, sculpted chest? Love has to go two ways. It still seems to me that Bella only likes Edward because he's hot, especially since half the words in the book are adjectives, adverbs, and purple prose used to smack the reader over the head with his godlike beauty.
About the maturity and IQ...yeah, I agree I generalized it too much and used them interchangeably. I should have separated them. What I meant is that if Bella is so mature, she should know not to do all these stupid things, and mature people definitely don't try to isolate themselves from her families. When I was talking about the IQ points, I meant, again, about the way she processes logic. Like jumping off a cliff during a storm, and she doesn't think she's going to die. She goes at James on her own without thinking even once how it probably won't do any good.
Maybe a lot of attention IS annoying, but Bella is supposed to be shy. I could understand if she feels uncomfortable, but not if she keeps thinking such snarky thoughts about people who have never done anything wrong to her.
I still disagree on the stereotyping thing. It felt like a complaint to me. Maybe not the greasy part (I was talking more about stereotyping than complaining), but the "overly helpful" really gets on my nerves. Especially since five seconds ago she was whining about how she wouldn't fit in, how nervous she was for school, and how she would be a freak.
Bella's monologue on the night before school:
"Forks High School had a frightening total of only three hundred and fifty-seven--now fifty-eight--students; there were more than seven hundred people back in my junior class along back home. All of the kids here had grown up here together--their grandparents had been toddlers together. I would be the new girl from the big city, a curiosity, a freak.
[...]
Facing my pallid reflection in the mirror, I was forced to admit that I was lying to myself. It wasn't just physically that I'd never fit in."
Upon meeting Eric:
"'You're Isabella Swan, aren't you?' He looked like the overly helpful, chess club type.
'Bella,' I corrected. Everyone within a three-seat radius turned to look at me.
'Where's your next class?' he asked.
I had to check in my bag. 'Um, Government with Jefferson, in building six.'
There was nowhere to look without meeting curious eyes.
'I'm headed toward building four, I could show you the way...' Definitely overly helpful."
(Bella, I thought you were worried about being a freak...?)
Bella's thoughts on Mike Newton:
"I hurried from the girls' locker room, pleased to find that I had successfully evaded my retriever friend."
Is Bella a sociopath or what? Does she really see her classmates as unimportant animals?
Then, later on, Tyler asks Bella out, and she complains that Mike and Eric had "already used up" her "quota of patience."
Maybe it's not nice of Edward to do that on the first day of school, but it doesn't make sense because, like I said, before she was continually yammering about how torturous it was to have so much attention. Then when one guy does exactly what she's complaining that everyone is not doing, she fights tears. And the fact that Bella is supposed to be mature. Maturity may be a matter of opinion, but I still think a mature person would just move on with life instead of constantly thinking about how ONE guy dissed her. If she doesn't care about Mike or Eric's or anyone else's attention, why should she care at all about another guy? The fact that he looks like a Greek god doesn't count.
Also. Bella keeps ogling Edward the entire time. I think anyone would be creeped out or annoyed by someone constantly staring at them. Like, "excuse me, can you stop making me feel like you're stalking me?" Yeah, he's a vampire, but Bella doesn't know this yet.
I didn't say that God made it happen. That doesn't mean it's not plot convenience. Bella worried that her status as a vampire would change her actual emotions and feelings and perspective of her parents. Conveniently, it turns out fine.
I AM fine if you don't feel like "proving" their love. I never said you had to. I stated what I thought. I stated my perspective on the subject. I honestly don't care whether you want to or not.
Maybe Bella DID make Edward feel human again...but this brings up another question. How is Bella so ~*special*~ that she's the only human in a century who has those private mind powers? Bella is supposed to be a normal, average girl. She insists it. The narrative insists it. Even Meyer keeps insisting it. I'm not saying this is a plot hole, technically it's not, but I still find it implausible and contradictory to what half the book keeps insisting.
How about the reason BELLA is in love with Edward? Besides his incredibly seductive voice, liquid topaz eyes, godlike beauty, and marble, sculpted chest? Love has to go two ways. It still seems to me that Bella only likes Edward because he's hot, especially since half the words in the book are adjectives, adverbs, and purple prose used to smack the reader over the head with his godlike beauty.
About the maturity and IQ...yeah, I agree I generalized it too much and used them interchangeably. I should have separated them. What I meant is that if Bella is so mature, she should know not to do all these stupid things, and mature people definitely don't try to isolate themselves from her families. When I was talking about the IQ points, I meant, again, about the way she processes logic. Like jumping off a cliff during a storm, and she doesn't think she's going to die. She goes at James on her own without thinking even once how it probably won't do any good.
Maybe a lot of attention IS annoying, but Bella is supposed to be shy. I could understand if she feels uncomfortable, but not if she keeps thinking such snarky thoughts about people who have never done anything wrong to her.
I still disagree on the stereotyping thing. It felt like a complaint to me. Maybe not the greasy part (I was talking more about stereotyping than complaining), but the "overly helpful" really gets on my nerves. Especially since five seconds ago she was whining about how she wouldn't fit in, how nervous she was for school, and how she would be a freak.
Bella's monologue on the night before school:
"Forks High School had a frightening total of only three hundred and fifty-seven--now fifty-eight--students; there were more than seven hundred people back in my junior class along back home. All of the kids here had grown up here together--their grandparents had been toddlers together. I would be the new girl from the big city, a curiosity, a freak.
[...]
Facing my pallid reflection in the mirror, I was forced to admit that I was lying to myself. It wasn't just physically that I'd never fit in."
Upon meeting Eric:
"'You're Isabella Swan, aren't you?' He looked like the overly helpful, chess club type.
'Bella,' I corrected. Everyone within a three-seat radius turned to look at me.
'Where's your next class?' he asked.
I had to check in my bag. 'Um, Government with Jefferson, in building six.'
There was nowhere to look without meeting curious eyes.
'I'm headed toward building four, I could show you the way...' Definitely overly helpful."
(Bella, I thought you were worried about being a freak...?)
Bella's thoughts on Mike Newton:
"I hurried from the girls' locker room, pleased to find that I had successfully evaded my retriever friend."
Is Bella a sociopath or what? Does she really see her classmates as unimportant animals?
Then, later on, Tyler asks Bella out, and she complains that Mike and Eric had "already used up" her "quota of patience."
Maybe it's not nice of Edward to do that on the first day of school, but it doesn't make sense because, like I said, before she was continually yammering about how torturous it was to have so much attention. Then when one guy does exactly what she's complaining that everyone is not doing, she fights tears. And the fact that Bella is supposed to be mature. Maturity may be a matter of opinion, but I still think a mature person would just move on with life instead of constantly thinking about how ONE guy dissed her. If she doesn't care about Mike or Eric's or anyone else's attention, why should she care at all about another guy? The fact that he looks like a Greek god doesn't count.
Also. Bella keeps ogling Edward the entire time. I think anyone would be creeped out or annoyed by someone constantly staring at them. Like, "excuse me, can you stop making me feel like you're stalking me?" Yeah, he's a vampire, but Bella doesn't know this yet.
Jocelyn wrote: "ow is Bella so ~*special*~ that she's the only human in a century who has those private mind powers?..."While this wasn't explained in the book, it was explained by someone who had a lot to with with the production of the book, and there was evidence in the book to support it.
The reason behind it is that Bella had the special talent of blocking her thoughts from herself.This transferred into blocking her thoughts from everyone. (more on this in a bit) There are quotes throughout the book like "I do a good job of blocking painful, unnecessary things from my memory." - ch. 1. And the fact that Bella rarely thought about her past.
Bella is supposed to be a normal, average girl. She insists it. The narrative insists it. Even Meyer keeps insisting it. I'm not saying this is a plot hole, technically it's not, but I still find it implausible and contradictory to what half the book keeps insisting.
It seems like you're taking that too literally. I never took that to mean she was supposed to be some kind of robotic carbon copy, exactly like every other person in the world. I figured it to mean she didn't lead an abnormal life. Nothing special or extraordinary ever happened to her.
How about the reason BELLA is in love with Edward? Besides his incredibly seductive voice, liquid topaz eyes, godlike beauty, and marble, sculpted chest?
I already said all I want to say on that. I gave my thoughts on both Edward and Bella. You can go back and reread if you want.
What I meant is that if Bella is so mature, she should know not to do all these stupid things, and mature people definitely don't try to isolate themselves from her families. When I was talking about the IQ points, I meant, again, about the way she processes logic. Like jumping off a cliff during a storm, and she doesn't think she's going to die. She goes at James on her own without thinking even once how it probably won't do any good.
I already said... large amounts of stress causes impaired judgment. She's not as "mature" as she usually is when her judgment is impaired.
Maybe a lot of attention IS annoying, but Bella is supposed to be shy. I could understand if she feels uncomfortable, but not if she keeps thinking such snarky thoughts about people who have never done anything wrong to her.
Sorry, but what does being shy have to do with anything? Shy is not the opposite of snarky. "She's shy, so she can't be snarky" makes no sense.
"Forks High School had a frightening total of only three hundred and fifty-seven--now fifty-eight--students; there were more than seven hundred people back in my junior class along back home. All of the kids here had grown up here together--their grandparents had been toddlers together. I would be the new girl from the big city, a curiosity, a freak.
That's only Bella recognizing that she's new... She never said she was desperate to fit in, or that she wanted to fit in at all.
Back to the special mind blocking power. It's not something that just makes her special than everyone else (as I suspect this is next to be brought up. It usually is), because every other vampire who has a power also had it in their human life. Bella's not anymore special than those.
Other gifted humans in the series include:
Charlie - Charlie also has a block. The kind that deflects mental influence. If Charlie becasme a vampire, he would be a shield also.
Edward - really good at reading people as a human
Alice - Alice had visions as a human
Jasper - Jasper had an enhanced charasmatic nature and persuasive abilities as a human. Higher than average.
Jane & Alec - Both Jane and Alec had the ability to will good or bad things to happen to people.
James - James had extraordinary hunting and tracking skills as a human
Victoria - Victoria developed the skill of keeping out of sight due to the abuse she suffered as a human
Benjamin - He has the gift of controlling elements as a human, so he lived as a street performer.
Maggie - She was born with the ability to know when a person is lying.
Alistair - He was also a hunter who didn't get along with people, so he naturally had the ability to gravitate away from others, toward whatever he was hunting.
Fred - Fred was emotionally and physically withdrawn from people as a human.
Raoul - He was a natural born leader as a human
Kate - Kate was trained to be a loyay bodyguard as a human, so she developed the ability to shock others as a form of protection.
Didyme - As a human, she had the ability to induce others with happiness.
So, Bella is no more special or talented than these characters.
(I'm jumping the gun here, but I'm sure it will come up, like it always does)
Cassie wrote: "That's only Bella recognizing that she's new... She never said she was desperate to fit in, or that she wanted to fit in at all."
But she's implying that by complaining that she's being a freak. The words and all the negative connotations that go with it make it pretty clear that she wants to fit in. She may be kind of resigned, like "Whatever, it's not like I'll ever be successful at fitting in," but it's obvious that if she did fit in, she'd be happy. From this quote anyway.
Maybe from all the plot points and characters you've pointed out, Bella isn't as special as I'd thought it was. But how about the narration and light Bella is put in? Edward constantly comments on how he's never met anyone like Bella, or how mature Bella is for her age ("You don't seem seventeen"), and how everyone goes out of their way to pursue Bella. Either because they're jealous, or I guess because she's just that special. There was also this one plot point in Eclipse, when Bella and Edward go visit Renee, a plot point that serves no purpose to the story whatsoever except to have Renee comment on how unique and different and special Bella and Edward's relationship is. Even the Volturi, who don't seem to care at all about the Bella and Edward's relationship, comment on the power and depth and whatnot of their oh so unique bond. It just seemed like to me that Meyer needed to constantly point out that Bella's super ~*speshul*~-ness is the only reason why Edward is in love with her. Like, literally, as though that if Bella weren't such a Sue Edward wouldn't have felt attracted to her.
I didn't say at all that shy is the opposite of snarky. Bella is supposed to be shy with low self-esteem. Her shallow thoughts about her schoolmates seem extremely arrogant. Shy people, in general, would be at most highly uncomfortable and nervous and perhaps slightly annoyed. They wouldn't be thinking about what puppies and golden retrievers and animals their schoolmates are. Which brings me back to my point about Meyer's lack of skill to effectively use POV and narration. As much as possible of the MC's monologue and dialogue should be used convey her/his personality. Every thought, every sentence, even every word should contribute to something. Instead of doing that, Meyer's words contradict themselves. Bella has supposedly low self-esteem, but seems to think rather highly of herself, especially when she regards her friends as and compares them to animals. She is supposedly plain, but the words used to describe her appearance are incredibly flattering. She supposedly thinks she's not worthy of Edward, but proceeds to complain about every single painful moment of his absence, as well as getting into "cute" arguments with Edward about who loves the other more.
But she's implying that by complaining that she's being a freak. The words and all the negative connotations that go with it make it pretty clear that she wants to fit in. She may be kind of resigned, like "Whatever, it's not like I'll ever be successful at fitting in," but it's obvious that if she did fit in, she'd be happy. From this quote anyway.
Maybe from all the plot points and characters you've pointed out, Bella isn't as special as I'd thought it was. But how about the narration and light Bella is put in? Edward constantly comments on how he's never met anyone like Bella, or how mature Bella is for her age ("You don't seem seventeen"), and how everyone goes out of their way to pursue Bella. Either because they're jealous, or I guess because she's just that special. There was also this one plot point in Eclipse, when Bella and Edward go visit Renee, a plot point that serves no purpose to the story whatsoever except to have Renee comment on how unique and different and special Bella and Edward's relationship is. Even the Volturi, who don't seem to care at all about the Bella and Edward's relationship, comment on the power and depth and whatnot of their oh so unique bond. It just seemed like to me that Meyer needed to constantly point out that Bella's super ~*speshul*~-ness is the only reason why Edward is in love with her. Like, literally, as though that if Bella weren't such a Sue Edward wouldn't have felt attracted to her.
I didn't say at all that shy is the opposite of snarky. Bella is supposed to be shy with low self-esteem. Her shallow thoughts about her schoolmates seem extremely arrogant. Shy people, in general, would be at most highly uncomfortable and nervous and perhaps slightly annoyed. They wouldn't be thinking about what puppies and golden retrievers and animals their schoolmates are. Which brings me back to my point about Meyer's lack of skill to effectively use POV and narration. As much as possible of the MC's monologue and dialogue should be used convey her/his personality. Every thought, every sentence, even every word should contribute to something. Instead of doing that, Meyer's words contradict themselves. Bella has supposedly low self-esteem, but seems to think rather highly of herself, especially when she regards her friends as and compares them to animals. She is supposedly plain, but the words used to describe her appearance are incredibly flattering. She supposedly thinks she's not worthy of Edward, but proceeds to complain about every single painful moment of his absence, as well as getting into "cute" arguments with Edward about who loves the other more.
Perhaps, they are not obsessed with Twilight, but instead obsessed with hating Twilight.I don't know, just an assumption.
Samantha wrote: "Don't call us "haters". Just because not everyone loves this stupid series doesn't mean we hate it just to hate it. The majority of us that have rated it one or two stars have actually read the boo..."
I'm going to have to agree. It's like I'm a writer so I really work hard to be good at it. Reading books like Twilight(yes I have read the whole series, I was a fan but then I re-read them and found that I was wrong, personally) is insulting because there is no effort, discipline, story development, consequence, good vs. evil, true love, reality etc. I get why people like it, it is entertaining I won't deny that. But I think the reason that there are so many "haters" is because we just can't fathom the series popularity. There are so many great books out there and to see one so (personally) inadequate get all the attention?That's just upsetting and kind of depressing. I work hard to be a better writer every day and if this is what sells? I can't be proud if I wrote something like that. Does anyone appreciate quality anymore?
I don't want to offend anyone, and I respect everyone's opinions I just wanted to voice mine. I don't expect anyone to agree with me.
I'm going to have to agree. It's like I'm a writer so I really work hard to be good at it. Reading books like Twilight(yes I have read the whole series, I was a fan but then I re-read them and found that I was wrong, personally) is insulting because there is no effort, discipline, story development, consequence, good vs. evil, true love, reality etc. I get why people like it, it is entertaining I won't deny that. But I think the reason that there are so many "haters" is because we just can't fathom the series popularity. There are so many great books out there and to see one so (personally) inadequate get all the attention?That's just upsetting and kind of depressing. I work hard to be a better writer every day and if this is what sells? I can't be proud if I wrote something like that. Does anyone appreciate quality anymore?
I don't want to offend anyone, and I respect everyone's opinions I just wanted to voice mine. I don't expect anyone to agree with me.
I'm going to have to agree with you, Baylor. A lot of the stuff could have been cut out like some of the unneeded minor details.. and the bit where they were randomly playing a game of supernatural baseball. I mean, I do see why they keep enrolling themselves in high school over and over again, but there isn't any purpose as to why they were playing baseball.I also don't think that Meyer needed to spend 4 lengthy novels just to develop some character in Bella. Correct me if I'm wrong since I didn't finish the series and it has been years since I've read them. But I don't think there was any actual development in ANY character throughout the entire span of the series.
I think the way she wrote the series played a huge role too. I mean, her sentence structures were way too simplistic and her vocabulary range wasn't all too impressive. I think a fourth of the first book was about how beautiful Edward was. (I'm exaggerating, but still it's a good chunk of Twilight).
Not only that, but the relationship between Bella and Edward just seemed awkward about 85% of the time because it's not healthy of them to obsess over each other to that degree. I do believe that Edward is controlling Bella, which borders abuse. Whether this is intentional or not from the author herself, it's still there.
Again, I'm not hating in this post. If you think otherwise, then your fangirl is showing and you need to calm down because this is what I think about Twilight and its sequels.
Baylor wrote: "I'm going to have to agree. It's like I'm a writer so I really work hard to be good at it. Reading books like Twilight(yes I have read the whole series, I was a fan but then I re-read them and found that I was wrong, personally) is insulting "Although I don't agree with on a couple of things, I see your point. That's exactly how I feel about some other book (though my issue was not mainly quality of writing).
It's sad that awesome stories aren't getting the attention they deserve, or are getting rejected by publishers because they don't seem to fit the trend of what is "marketable" these days.
But people like what they like *shrugs*. I've learned that even negative feedback is not necessarily negative because it still draws the attention to the book/author and piques curiosity of some. Though, God help me, sometimes I can't help it and still post something in hope that it will discourage someone from reading the book or make someone see it my way, lol. Meanwhile, the author I dislike doesn't care and just sits on her pile of money. Life is unfair.
So all we can do is support the books and authors we love. And hope for the best that other people will follow suit.
Do you not think that a author is the most bravest person in the world, they put themselves out there they share a part of themselves with the entire world and for the most part they get a whole lot of grief. What ever happened to respecting people for their uniqueness and diversity, why do books need to be nit picked and devisive...If you love the book fabulous more power to you, if you hate the book so what..it is someone elses work and they have put everything they have into it so I think a little more respect for authors would be nice
I don't think so. I hate Twilight and really am NOT obsessed with it. I just think that people should know how crap the book is and see the light and read Harry Potter.
Georgia wrote: "I don't think so. I hate Twilight and really am NOT obsessed with it. I just think that people should know how crap the book is and see the light and read Harry Potter."Crap to you is not obviously crap to others.. I would hate to think that someone would totally diss something that you were proud of because that is just showng a lack of respect..not cool
Jettcatt wrote: "Do you not think that a author is the most bravest person in the world, they put themselves out there they share a part of themselves with the entire world and for the most part they get a whole lo..."Umm... no. An author chooses to publish because they want to. Not because they are brave. Try again.
Dorima wrote: "Jettcatt wrote: "Do you not think that a author is the most bravest person in the world, they put themselves out there they share a part of themselves with the entire world and for the most part th..."An author chooses to publish because they are proud of the work not to have endless critiques that go over and over the same things, ok I'm sure SM gets that some people don't like them but the book is out there it has sold many many copies some like it some don't fullstop why does it have to cause so much derision
Jettcatt wrote: "Dorima wrote: "Jettcatt wrote: "Do you not think that a author is the most bravest person in the world, they put themselves out there they share a part of themselves with the entire world and for t..."They choose to publish KNOWING what to expect. If you honestly think that they go into publishing without EXPECTING criticism, then I don't really know what else to say. Imho, it has nothing to do with bravery.
I didn't say they aren't expecting criticism, but honestly enough already how long has Twilight been out for, I think SM got the message loud and clear. And if you think that publishing has no sense of bravery or even a heighten amount of confidence (boardering on bravery) then i have nothing else to say other than picking on other peoples work just because you don't like it is shallow and disrespectful.
Twilight was published in 2005, I believe. She started to work on her first draft in 2003. But I have to agree with Dorima here. SM has zero tolerance for any criticism whatsoever, and even proceeds to bash classics like Wuthering Heights, Romeo and Juliet, Pride and Prejudice and The Princess Bride while admitting that her works were inspired by them. Her brother deletes all hate mail from her email as well, which I personally find so ridiculous as to be absolutely hilarious.
Hate mail!!! see that is what I mean why would anyone ever send hate mail about a fictional story seriously that is all kinds of wrong. Why don't people get all angry about the real stuff like child abuse and world hunger and the slave trade and organised crime etc etc.. A book is supposed to be about reading for enjoyment this is all so wierd I don't get it
Jocelyn wrote: "But how about the narration and light Bella is put in? Edward constantly comments on how he's never met anyone like Bella, or how mature Bella is for her age ("You don't seem seventeen"), and how everyone goes out of their way to pursue Bella. Either because they're jealous, or I guess because she's just that special."Well, RE Edward, isn’t that what all boys in love say?
Also, there are three-hundred plus kids in that school and everybody knows everybody from earliest childhood, you'd chase after everything new as well if you had too live in such a place. :D
Jocelyn wrote: "Bella is supposed to be shy with low self-esteem. Her shallow thoughts about her schoolmates seem extremely arrogant. Shy people, in general, would be at most highly uncomfortable and nervous and perhaps slightly annoyed. They wouldn't be thinking about what puppies and golden retrievers and animals their schoolmates are."
That’s a sketchy point, just because someone is shy, and has low self-esteem, doesn’t mean they can’t be misanthropic too. :)
So now I'm gathering that it's all just jealousy... I really hate the "Oh, you're just jealous" dismissal, but you guys are screaming "I'm really jealous of Stephenie Meyer!" loud and clear.You're upset that your books aren't as popular as hers, even though you think you're a lot better.
That's the very defenition of jealousy.
I would suggest just getting over it... A lot of luck is involved in what becomes popular and what doesn't anyways. You're going to extremely hate someone for having more luck that you? That also oozes jealousy.
Jocelyn wrote: "Twilight was published in 2005, I believe. She started to work on her first draft in 2003. But I have to agree with Dorima here. SM has zero tolerance for any criticism whatsoever, and even proceed..."I think that's a smart thing to do--have her brother delete the hate mail. It doesn't take much for your inpiration to flee. Who wants to have everything someone doesn't like about your work pointed out to them time and again?
I would be so obsessed with what everyone thought, I'd probably have to read it. I think it takes a lot of strength to just let it go. I'm not sure I'd be able to let it roll off my back so quickly.
Angie wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Twilight was published in 2005, I believe. She started to work on her first draft in 2003. But I have to agree with Dorima here. SM has zero tolerance for any criticism whatsoever, ..."I agree like I have said previously I think SM has heard it all before and totally gets it..but how many times do you need to hear it and the whole hate mail thing is ridiculous and good on her brother for shielding his sister from such unwarranted ravings.
Jettcatt wrote: "Hate mail!!! see that is what I mean why would anyone ever send hate mail about a fictional story seriously that is all kinds of wrong."Fair point.
Deleting hate mail is no more ridicolous than writing it - if anything they meet on a par there. :)
However, authors do write to receive critique of their work - or should, at the very least - how else could they grow as a writer if nobody told them what works and what not?
Cassie wrote: "So now I'm gathering that it's all just jealousy... I really hate the "Oh, you're just jealous" dismissal, but you guys are screaming "I'm really jealous of Stephenie Meyer!" loud and clear.You'r..."
I don't like that defense, either, but I think it does apply to some of the 'haters' here.
What causes even more concern for me is this: She's a popular writer. She deserves the criticsism.
Really? She deserves criticism because of her success? To me, that is an incredibly immature and jaded statement. To say she's popular so it's probably going to happen is one thing, but to say someone deserves it because of their success is incredibly arrogant.
Samantha wrote: "Cassie wrote: "So now I'm gathering that it's all just jealousy... I really hate the "Oh, you're just jealous" dismissal, but you guys are screaming "I'm really jealous of Stephenie Meyer!" loud an..."That's the thing about jealousy...the people who exhibit it are rarely the ones in the know.
I would have thought the idea of criticism would be to receive constructive criticism then it would be warranted but hate mail is vile and disrespectful. When is it ever right to treat someone that way? Surely we all learn't that in primary school.
@Jocelyn...You say Stephenie Meyer has no tolerence for criticizm, but what evidence do you have of this? Really... what ounce of proof do you have? I think someone just randomly said that one day in some blog, and everyone took it as proof of something.
Did you get an exclusive interview with her editors and they told you that Stephenie Meyer refused to listen to a word they said? And she refused to make a single change? That she had zero tolerence for any critisizm?
And if you think that's what happened, you're wrong. Look around her website. Actually read her posts. There's plenty mention of the editing process. How changes were suggested, and those changes were made.
What other criticizm is she supposed to take? Is she supposed to read all the anti blogs, recall all the books, change them, then republish them? If the books are already out, what is she supposed to do?
And why should anyone have to read hate mail? What's the purpose of it? Why should a single person on this planet be obligated to read hate mail? It's the furthest thing from constructive criticizm. She probably mostly gets death threats, something about Bram Stoker rolling in graves, Hermione obnoxiously scoffing about stuff, and "I wrote better than you when I was 7". It's not productive at all.
@Jocelyn again.Less than 24 hours ago, did you not say how it was funny that Stephenie Meyer was comparing her story to Romeo and Juliet because she stupidly thinks it's all about true love, just like Edward and Bella.
Then proceed to be angry that Stephenie Meyer "bashes" Romeo and Juliet by insulting the romance they had?
It happened before, but since this is the second time I've seen it, I decided to mention it.
Samantha wrote: "Angie wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Cassie wrote: "So now I'm gathering that it's all just jealousy... I really hate the "Oh, you're just jealous" dismissal, but you guys are screaming "I'm really jealo..."I didn't say that YOU were jealous. I was responding to your query about who WAS jealous. (I'm not yelling. I don't know how to do italics or bold.) People don't typically admit to jealousy, because they know how petty it is. But it doesn't take that much to read between the lines and see who is.
Very nice display of maturity in your last statement.
Jettcatt wrote: "I would have thought the idea of criticism would be to receive constructive criticism then it would be warranted but hate mail is vile and disrespectful."True that.
The best blog post by an author, that I saw, said essentially that all criticism is valid. As an author you have an unspoken deal with the reader to entertain them, if they did find something to criticise you failed them - easy as - and therefore one should at least listen to critique.
However, an author has always the right to ignore criticism that is brought forth in an impolite manner.
I mean seriously, I seldom enough can be bothered to drop a few nice lines to those authors I thoroughly enjoy, who the hell has time to drop hate mail to those whose work they didn’t, enjoy that is?
Honestly, that’s a sure sign that you need to get a life, when you start writing hate mail to people you don’t even know.
Angie wrote: "What causes even more concern for me is this: She's a popular writer. She deserves the criticisms."
Put that way it does sound pretty petty.
But truth is, that the more popularity something gains, the more it should be scrutinized, and in turn the more criticism it will earn.
Samantha wrote: "Who said anything about jealousy? I don't think anybody here said they were upset that their books weren't as popular, or that they thought they were better. Where are you getting this jealousy crap from? "I got that from comments like:
"It's like I'm a writer so I really work hard to be good at it. Reading books like Twilight(yes I have read the whole series, I was a fan but then I re-read them and found that I was wrong, personally) is insulting because there is no effort, discipline, story development, consequence, good vs. evil, true love, reality etc. I get why people like it, it is entertaining I won't deny that. But I think the reason that there are so many "haters" is because we just can't fathom the series popularity. There are so many great books out there and to see one so (personally) inadequate get all the attention?That's just upsetting and kind of depressing. I work hard to be a better writer every day and if this is what sells? I can't be proud if I wrote something like that. Does anyone appreciate quality anymore?"
The animosity and resentment is as plain as day.
I didn't "randomly say that someone is jealous". There's reason behind it.
I wasn't trying to speak in absolute terms, so I wasn't talking about everyone.
The conversation re jealousy and criticism reminds me of something we covered in Media Law. At one point do 'celebrities' lose thier right to privacy that 'normal' people consider to be tantamount.For example, celebrities are often seen doing thier shopping, eating lunch etc - but we, as common citizens, would not expect to have such details of our life published. What it came down to in my classes was to what extent were 'celebrities' expected to have a different right to privacy.
J.K.Rowling has taken papers to court to protect the privacy of her children - her argument being she is the famous author and not them.
To me, taking this legal standpoint in mind (and this is UK law only I am referring to) if someone puts themselves in such a position - aka either by writing a book, starring in a film etc - then they should expect that in the modern society they have they are going to be held to a different standard. In the case of authors/actors this invariably means having your work critiqued. If you dislike that then perhaps you ought to think about publishing under a pseudonyms so that the emphasis is on someone made up and not yourself.
I totally agree that hate mail is wrong - however, as can be well seen on even this site, you have people who do not care about even the basis of common courtesy. It is something to be expected (very unfortunately) in the world in which we live.
I think Gerd has said it best The best blog post by an author, that I saw, said essentially that all criticism is valid. As an author you have an unspoken deal with the reader to entertain them, if they did find something to criticise you failed them - easy as - and therefore one should at least listen to critique.
However, an author has always the right to ignore criticism that is brought forth in an impolite manner.
Cassie wrote: "I've just been looking around lately and I've noticed that most posts are from people who have rated the books 1 or 2 stars. It honestly seems like these people really enjoy talking about Twilight,..."I did notice this, and I don't understand it. LOL
Tina J wrote: "In a nutshell - haters LOVE to hate!"Very true.
Cassie,I'm going to take an excerpt straight from one of Ida's replies as a piece of advice for you:
I'd advise you to just stop replying to Ida. They're only going to continue trying to project opinions on to you that you probably don't have nor agree with based on some tiny part of what you said that they will have to twist into something unrecognisable in order to make themselves look better. There is no point arguing with intellectual dishonest people. They probably don't even realize themselves they don't make sense, or they're just wilfully ignorant. Either way do yourself a favour and just walk away. Don't feed the troll! (end excerpt)
Of course, I also think this is a stellar example of the pot calling the kettle black...but that's just my two cents.
Okay, this is probably very rude of me, I'm not sure. Just please excuse my probable rudeness for the next bit.
Angie, I don't totally think that Cassie and Ida's arguments were terrible. Ida in general was quite civil towards Cassie, and Cassie in turn was also civil towards Ida. They didn't call each other idiots or anything. Just my thoughts :)
Angie, I don't totally think that Cassie and Ida's arguments were terrible. Ida in general was quite civil towards Cassie, and Cassie in turn was also civil towards Ida. They didn't call each other idiots or anything. Just my thoughts :)
Dorima wrote: "I'm going to have to agree with you, Baylor. A lot of the stuff could have been cut out like some of the unneeded minor details.. and the bit where they were randomly playing a game of supernatural..."
Not one character developed at all, you're not wrong. I didn't see any realization or significant moment for any character. Again, just my opinion. And I also found it kind of sickening how all those kids welcomed Bella with open arms and she acted all offended by it and as soon as *something shiny*(lol) came along she basically told them to F-off.
Not one character developed at all, you're not wrong. I didn't see any realization or significant moment for any character. Again, just my opinion. And I also found it kind of sickening how all those kids welcomed Bella with open arms and she acted all offended by it and as soon as *something shiny*(lol) came along she basically told them to F-off.
Cassie wrote: "Samantha wrote: "Who said anything about jealousy? I don't think anybody here said they were upset that their books weren't as popular, or that they thought they were better. Where are you getting ..."
I had no animosity or resentment when I wrote that comment. You're assuming, but hey if that's how you see me I can understand that. I have only been writing for 4years I don't expect to be published anytime soon. I love what I write, but being objective I know that about 80% of what I write should be burned and started anew. I'm not jealous of SM, I do dislike however that something that I believe has no quality is so popular. You can take that as jealousy if you want of course, but I see it as having standards. Just my opinion.
I had no animosity or resentment when I wrote that comment. You're assuming, but hey if that's how you see me I can understand that. I have only been writing for 4years I don't expect to be published anytime soon. I love what I write, but being objective I know that about 80% of what I write should be burned and started anew. I'm not jealous of SM, I do dislike however that something that I believe has no quality is so popular. You can take that as jealousy if you want of course, but I see it as having standards. Just my opinion.
Ugh, the topic of jealousy.
To tell the truth, I never got why people accuse people who dislike certain books to be jealous. If I ever envy anything, it's something that I like instead of dislike. If I dislike it, I don't want to follow its example. Personally--and I don't mean any offense to any Twilight fans--if I wrote Twilight I'd burst into tears at the sight of my own work.
Maybe it's just me.
To tell the truth, I never got why people accuse people who dislike certain books to be jealous. If I ever envy anything, it's something that I like instead of dislike. If I dislike it, I don't want to follow its example. Personally--and I don't mean any offense to any Twilight fans--if I wrote Twilight I'd burst into tears at the sight of my own work.
Maybe it's just me.
Peace wrote: "just wondering would be easyer if someone just send all these diff Q to SM for her, then she can look at all questeions, then she can answer, everyone of them, type of thing?"I think it's been done before.
A lot of these questions being asked, she's already answered, but the people who ask them probably don't care enough to look it up or pay any attention to the answers (I'm aware that this is an assumption, don't worry)
Cassie wrote: "Peace wrote: "just wondering would be easyer if someone just send all these diff Q to SM for her, then she can look at all questeions, then she can answer, everyone of them, type of thing?"
I thin..."
I think, Cassie, it's not that she's already answered the questions and people keep repeating them, it's that they feel she hasn't answered them as competently as they would like. She claims that Twilight is not antifeminist because it's Bella's choice. She contradicts herself when she first says that Bella is supposed to be a self-insert for the reader, then proceeds to say that Bella is a really complex character. She spontaneously tries to answer the questions about the plot holes in her story, but then the readers find even more holes in her logic when she tries to explain her plot holes. Sometimes antis find it annoying that when Meyer is asked a question she doesn't like, she'll ignore it or say she doesn't understand it then throw a fit about it outside of the interview/question. For example, there was this little girl in Toronto who went to a book signing and asked Meyer in person why she didn't think Twilight was antifeminist. There is never any mention of Meyer actually answering her question, but there IS mention, even by Meyer herself, that she said it was confusing that someone should ask her such a ridiculous question.
I'm also aware that this is an opinion, btw. I suppose it could be just me.
I thin..."
I think, Cassie, it's not that she's already answered the questions and people keep repeating them, it's that they feel she hasn't answered them as competently as they would like. She claims that Twilight is not antifeminist because it's Bella's choice. She contradicts herself when she first says that Bella is supposed to be a self-insert for the reader, then proceeds to say that Bella is a really complex character. She spontaneously tries to answer the questions about the plot holes in her story, but then the readers find even more holes in her logic when she tries to explain her plot holes. Sometimes antis find it annoying that when Meyer is asked a question she doesn't like, she'll ignore it or say she doesn't understand it then throw a fit about it outside of the interview/question. For example, there was this little girl in Toronto who went to a book signing and asked Meyer in person why she didn't think Twilight was antifeminist. There is never any mention of Meyer actually answering her question, but there IS mention, even by Meyer herself, that she said it was confusing that someone should ask her such a ridiculous question.
I'm also aware that this is an opinion, btw. I suppose it could be just me.
Jocelyn wrote: "For example, there was this little girl in Toronto who went to a book signing and asked Meyer in person why she didn't think Twilight was antifeminist. There is never any mention of Meyer actually answering her question, but there IS mention, even by Meyer herself, that she said it was confusing that someone should ask her such a ridiculous question."Ha, I wouldn't have answered that girl either.
(“The worst I can remember happened at my appearance in Toronto. A girl (who must have sat in line all day to get the seat she had) asked during the Q&A how I could write such an antifeminist main character and if I wasn’t ashamed of myself for letting young girls read my misogynist works. I don’t get that. I mean, I’ve gotten that question from reporters and seen it online various places, and I think I can defend myself ably. What I don’t get is why you would come out to a signing for an author you hated, let alone stand out in the cold all day to get in. People are odd.”) - persephone magazine
The girl was by no means being polite. If someone talked to me like that, as a signing, I would have just sent her away.
No, what she said was that she found it ridiculous that a person would attend a book signing, and wait hours in the cold, just to ask a question like that.
Cassie wrote: "No, what she said was that she found it ridiculous that a person would attend a book signing, and wait hours in the cold, just to ask a question like that."lol! that IS ridiculous, and actually brings the topic back full circle! I would call that obsessively hating it.
Cassie wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "For example, there was this little girl in Toronto who went to a book signing and asked Meyer in person why she didn't think Twilight was antifeminist. There is never any mention of..."
I don't find it ridiculous at all. The girl was being honest. She apparently hadn't heard a strong enough argument to her satisfaction from Meyer, so she decided to confront her in person and hear something from her mouth. I don't think that's unreasonable. To throw a bitch fit like that, in my view, shows an extreme lack of humility, respect, and maturity. Meyer could have at least said, "You know what, I don't feel comfortable with answering that," instead of throwing a temper tantrum about it. Honesty is not synonymous with impoliteness.
I don't find that waiting hours just to meet a very famous celebrity, or some other huge event, is odd. People do that all the time. Harry Potter fans have camped outside just to await the release of a book or a party or whatever. Same with Twilight. Or any other huge popular phenomenon, for that matter. Meyer is a celebrity. Most likely, that time was the one time in her life she would be able to meet Meyer. And I find it extremely rude, arrogant, and presumptuous to say that she was "odd" for doing that. That's an opinion. She finds it odd, then whatever. I certainly don't find it odd. It's a matter of perspective. The girl did nothing wrong to Meyer. She asked an honest question straight from her heart. And Meyer finds it odd? Odd that someone wanted to hear something from her mouth in person because Meyer seemed to be so coyly dodging real questions before? The girl can do whatever she wants as long as her parents allow it. If Meyer is so insecure she has to announce to the world about the girl, an innocent little girl who did nothing wrong to Meyer except dent her overinflated ego just a teeny bit, I find that, in turn, quite ridiculous. This is supposed to be a thirty-something mother of three, yet she's acting like I did when I was eight. I don't know the age of that girl and never will, but she is sure a lot more mature than Meyer is. She mistook Meyer for a mature adult and decided to be honest. Unluckily for her, she was wrong. And it's not like Meyer ever mentioned anything like, "the girl came up to me and said, 'YOU ARE SUCH A TERRIBLE AUTHOR!!!!'"
I guess I would have been slightly annoyed or embarrassed if I had been in Meyer's place, but I wouldn't call her a weirdo simply because she did that. I think Meyer's the weirdo here.
I don't find it ridiculous at all. The girl was being honest. She apparently hadn't heard a strong enough argument to her satisfaction from Meyer, so she decided to confront her in person and hear something from her mouth. I don't think that's unreasonable. To throw a bitch fit like that, in my view, shows an extreme lack of humility, respect, and maturity. Meyer could have at least said, "You know what, I don't feel comfortable with answering that," instead of throwing a temper tantrum about it. Honesty is not synonymous with impoliteness.
I don't find that waiting hours just to meet a very famous celebrity, or some other huge event, is odd. People do that all the time. Harry Potter fans have camped outside just to await the release of a book or a party or whatever. Same with Twilight. Or any other huge popular phenomenon, for that matter. Meyer is a celebrity. Most likely, that time was the one time in her life she would be able to meet Meyer. And I find it extremely rude, arrogant, and presumptuous to say that she was "odd" for doing that. That's an opinion. She finds it odd, then whatever. I certainly don't find it odd. It's a matter of perspective. The girl did nothing wrong to Meyer. She asked an honest question straight from her heart. And Meyer finds it odd? Odd that someone wanted to hear something from her mouth in person because Meyer seemed to be so coyly dodging real questions before? The girl can do whatever she wants as long as her parents allow it. If Meyer is so insecure she has to announce to the world about the girl, an innocent little girl who did nothing wrong to Meyer except dent her overinflated ego just a teeny bit, I find that, in turn, quite ridiculous. This is supposed to be a thirty-something mother of three, yet she's acting like I did when I was eight. I don't know the age of that girl and never will, but she is sure a lot more mature than Meyer is. She mistook Meyer for a mature adult and decided to be honest. Unluckily for her, she was wrong. And it's not like Meyer ever mentioned anything like, "the girl came up to me and said, 'YOU ARE SUCH A TERRIBLE AUTHOR!!!!'"
I guess I would have been slightly annoyed or embarrassed if I had been in Meyer's place, but I wouldn't call her a weirdo simply because she did that. I think Meyer's the weirdo here.
Jocelyn wrote: "Cassie wrote: "I don't find it ridiculous at all. The girl was being honest. She apparently hadn't heard a strong enough argument to her satisfaction from Meyer, so she decided to confront her in person and hear something from her mouth. I don't think that's unreasonable. To throw a bitch fit like that, in my view, shows an extreme lack of humility, respect, and maturity. Meyer could have at least said, "You know what, I don't feel comfortable with answering that," instead of throwing a temper tantrum about it..."It was a not a polite question.. I find it strange that anyone would think it was polite. If that girl thought she was being polite, I'd question her morals, I certainly wouldn't want to associate with her.
You did realize that she told Stephenie Meyer that she should be ashamed of herself, right? I don't see how that's polite. She stood in line for who knows how long just to attack her characters.
I don't find that waiting hours just to meet a very famous celebrity is odd. People do that all the time. Harry Potter fans have camped outside just to await the release of a book or a party or whatever. Same with Twilight. Or any other huge popular phenomenon, for that matter. Meyer is a celebrity.
I don't know about you, but I don't think it's normal to stand in line for hours to meet a celebrity you don't even like. Why are you comparing this girl to Harry Potter fans excited to do Harry Potter things? It's pretty obvious that she doesn't even LIKE Stephenie Meyer's writing.
Would you be saying the same thing if some girl waited in line for hours, just to tell JK Rowling that she should be ashamed of herself for allowing children to read such an awful book?
Cassie wrote: "(“The worst I can remember happened at my appearance in Toronto. A girl (who must have sat in line all day to get the seat she had) asked during the Q&A how I could write such an antifeminist main character and if I wasn’t ashamed of myself for letting young girls read my misogynist works. I don’t get that. I mean, I’ve gotten that question from reporters and seen it online various places, and I think I can defend myself ably. What I don’t get is why you would come out to a signing for an author you hated, let alone stand out in the cold all day to get in. People are odd.”)."I assume that's a quote by Meyer?
You notice what's wrong with her response I hope?
At best, it could be construed that the girl "hated" twilight - she simply dislikes the course Meyer took with the characters in her book. Again, for all those out there that can't tell the difference: This is not expressing an hatred! As an author she should rather wonder what she might have done wrong, when readers get a (felt) wrong impression.
Yes, the way she posed the question was impolite, and few authors would like to be asked if they are not ashamed of their writing - if they really were they wouldn't have put it out in the world, so, on top of impolite it's a unnecessary question - but being confrontational is not the same as showing "hatred" to somebody or something.
Really, this whole accusing everyone that dares to confront certain parts of the novel as "hater" is starting to annoy me.
What's wrong with you people that you can't understand your own language?
Nothing, really. But Jocelyn is a fan, so I ask to present the same exact situation, but from a non-hate filled perspective.
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If that were true, Bella wouldn't be stereotyping her friends. Shed be making a real attempt to try to mingle with them as best as she could. But she doesn't."
If I remember right from reading Twilight, the only friends Bella really had were Jacob and Angela.
Jessica only hung out with her because the boys liked her (popular by association,) Lauren pretty much snubbed her from the beginning, and the boys all wanted to date her. They didn't want to merely be friends with her.
And I believe it was also explained in the book that she didn't have a lot of friends back in Arizona because she went to a school with a lot of wealthy people, and they couldn't be bothered with her because she didn't have a lot of money. Maybe she didn't know how to fit in. A lot of teenagers don't know how to fit in, and from experience I can tell you that a lot of the ones you see who look like they have a place to belong don't feel like they do.