Are people who dislike Twilight "obsessed" with Twilight?

[Mochaspresso]

Dorothy wrote: "Mocha Spresso wrote: "Well, i have officially lost power due to sandy. Its been an interesting chat but i have to conserve battery power for now. check you guys later. "

Oh, no! Are you okay? Whic..."

Yes, I am fine. Thank you. I don't live in an area that is vulnerable to flooding. The storm damage was mainly because of downed trees here. Other parts of Long Island have not been so lucky, though. I tried to go out yesterday and it was terrible. Entire neighborhoods are cut off and there is traffic everywhere. Everyone is scrambling to find an open store, a working atm and/or an open gas station. I've lived on Long Island for most of my life and this is the worst storm that I have ever experienced.

btw, you don't have to hide. I can accept critique when I goof. My apologies.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: How dare I have discussions about things because I blatantly don't understand anything...

I think the question was 'have you ever thought 'I don't think women should wear burqas?'.

I think that what I said was that if I were to debate the issue I'd probably have an opinion. It may be wrong and it may well be informed by what a Burqa wearer has to tell me about her culture and lifestyle, but the point is I think a lot of women in this thread will have 'opinions' about burqa wearing whether they're prepared at this juncture to openly state that or not ... sunce openly admitting that they thought non-burqa wearing were better in any way would make them somewhat hypocritical..."

Having opinions and open discussions are fine. However, opinions based on assumptions (that may or may not be faulty) and personal biases (that may or may not be valid) can effectively derail a discussion. So can a lack of sensitivity. I may have an opinion about the traditional dress but I don't think it is proper for me, someone outside of that culture, to presume to tell a woman why she chooses to wear it, what forces in society made her feel that she has to wear it, why she should or shouldn't wear it or what it "symbolizes" and I most certainly wouldn't call her choice to wear it an "inauthentic" choice. I think it would be better to be interested in hearing what she has to say about the choice that she made BEFORE presuming anything.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: "Diane wrote: "Well you oftentimes talk down on people. I can't see how they would be taken well. For example, you told one poster that she didn't know about patriarchy and told her to read a book...."

You can say that you aren't belittling housewives 2 million times....the basic problem is that despite this claim, you still managed to go on and say something that someone finds belittling.

[Mochaspresso]

Jocelyn,

Out of curiosity, do you plan to marry and have children some day? If so, what will your plans for childcare be? What factors do you envision influencing your decisions?

If you don't plan to, I am interested in hearing what factors that you think influence a woman's decisions to become a housewife? (besides patriarchal societal influence, lack of education, ambition and laziness of course)

I guess Alex can chime in on this too if he wants.

The reason I ask is because I find that sometimes, teens think they know it all and that they definitely know better than most adults.

It is very easy to say "when I grow up, I'm going to...." But it is harder when you are actually out in the real world and find that so many things do not always go according to plan.

[Amy]

Mocha Spresso wrote: Other parts of Long Island have not been so lucky, though. I tried to go out yesterday and it was terrible. Entire neighborhoods are cut off and there is traffic everywhere. Everyone is scrambling to find an open store, a working atm and/or an open gas station.

My Uncle lives a block or two away from the last block to be evacuated, so he's camping out at his work with non-perishable food (the only food he had) & trying not to be tempted by the prices of things (they've skyrocketed). It's more than an hour walk to his work so he's hoping to get the taxi. So when you tell me that I believe you ;) We haven't really had a chance to talk to him, we live in England so we normally face-time. He does charge his phone up at work when he can- they have limited power I believe but have some. Thinking of Manhattan!

Mocha Spresso wrote: "The reason I ask is because I find that sometimes, teens think they know it all and that they definitely know better than most adults.

It is very easy to say "when I grow up, I'm going to...." But it is harder when you are actually out in the real world and find that so many things do not always go according to plan."

Yeah, I totally know it all... (!) It's just having an aspiration. I've already been told I'm gonna fail, but I'm not planning everything- I just aspire to be... Well, a social worker. But that's not really related. I'm not going to say you're attacking me or whatever, but the first sentence wasn't accurate. I have my aspiration because of my parents... Because of what I've been told. By adults.
School doesn't just tell us to fly, it coaches us. It tells us some won't fly, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Attitude To Learning grades, haha. They make me laugh but it's good to encourage & so on ;)

[Mochaspresso]

Amy wrote: Yeah, I totally know it all... (!) It's just having an aspiration. I've already been told I'm gonna fail, but I'm not planning everything- I just aspire to be... Well, a social worker. But that's not really related. I'm not going to say you're attacking me or whatever, but the first sentence wasn't accurate. I have my aspiration because of my parents... Because of what I've been told. By adults.
School doesn't just tell us to fly, it coaches us. It tells us some won't fly, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Attitude To Learning grades, haha. They make me laugh but it's good to encourage & so on ;)."

I'm not trying to tell people that they are destined to fail. Mainly because I don't view being a housewife as "FAILURE" or as having no aspirations. The fact that some people do and their reasonings behind that viewpoint is what I find problematic and occasionally offensive.

Maybe I should go at this in a different way and present this hypothetical. Ann is a married woman with two children under the age of 5. She is making the decision whether or not to be a stay at home mom. What factors do you think will influence her decisions?
What do you think she should do and why?


"Put them in daycare and continue to work."

-- what if all of the good daycares in Ann's price range are full and she finds that those with space are either unsuitable or too expensive? How might that influence her decision?

-- what if she finds that her youngest child is always developing colds that she suspects is due to coming in contact with other children at daycare and she constantly has to take time off because he/she is too sick to go? How might that influence her decision?
What if her child has some type of chronic illness in general that makes him/her too sick to go to daycare?

-- what if after crunching numbers, she finds that it is better for the family financially if she stays home rather than paying for daycare? Maybe they are saving for a new home? Maybe they are saving because they intend to send their children to private school? Maybe that private school has a rigorous admissions policy and she feels that she can have them better prepared academically if she stays home and works with them as opposed to sending them to daycare?

-- what if she doesn't want to send them to daycare because she doesn't like it?



"Why doesn't the husband stay home?"

--depends. Maybe he has the higher income or the better benefits? Maybe her job/profession is the one where it is easier for her to find work again after taking time off? Maybe he is not very good at being organized and running a household? Maybe his career in one in which he works long hours or spends a lot of time away and they feel that at least one parent should be there full time for the kids?


I could go on and on with hypotheticals. What I am trying to say is that for most women, the decision to stay home isn't always about "aspiration". Most of the time, it is about what she thinks is best for her family and there are so many factors that influence her decision. Stay at home moms are varied and the reasons for making that choice are even more varied. Therefore, they shouldn't be stereotyped or generalized and they shouldn't be demeaned for making that choice. Saying that they are uneducated is demeaning. Saying that they can aspire to more is demeaning because it implies that what they are doing isn't in fact "more". Saying that their choice is inauthentic is demeaning.....even when you try to backtrack and clean it up with caveats and clarifications after the fact.

[Amy]

In the context I get it, that's why I didn't say that. Housewifery isn't failure... But I think Alex would see a problem with the husband staying at home- he turned the conversation round (or tried to) at one point & said he wouldn't be impressed with men doing that either.
Putting them into daycare or giving them to a childminder, eh? Opinion on childminders? OK, maybe an opinion on this decision (it's a real-life example):
A woman has qualifications to be a teacher (you can imagine other careers) & doesn't think she can have children. She has a daughter quite late & quits her job, thinking she'll find a new one. She eventually does return, but part-time & that part she dislikes of her time spending. So she becomes a childminder, so she can stay at home with her daughter & still make money.

[Alex]

I hope that Ann gave some thought to these hypotheticals *before* she made a decision to have a child because, y'know, it's rather a big decision.

***
Mocha wrote: The reason I ask is because I find that sometimes, teens think they know it all and that they definitely know better than most adults.

It is very easy to say "when I grow up, I'm going to...." But it is harder when you are actually out in the real world and find that so many things do not always go according to plan.

If school is a fake made up world, what's housewifery? Surely it's not as *real* as going out to work and earning money... huh? HUH? (please, this is meant to be humorously ironic, before you all flip your lids...)

I mean, Oh look, here's another person who laid into me for my views on housewives but has rather patronising views towards teenagers.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: "I hope that Ann gave some thought to these hypotheticals *before* she made a decision to have a child because, y'know, it's rather a big decision.


First, spare the drama....I'm not flipping my lid. We're just having a discussion. I don't like your views and you don't like mine and we are hashing it out. Truth is, I would genuinely like to understand your position.

But I asked some questions....and the answer "she should have thought of that before she had kids" doesn't really help to sway me toward your interpetation of "feminism". Actually, it pushes me even further away. I'm trying to understand who your version of "feminism" actually serves and why some women don't seem to warrant inclusion.

As to patronising teenagers, it is very easy to have opinions and to say what you will and won't do when you are very far removed from facing a certain situation that other people have to face.

[[deleted user]]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "Jocelyn,

Out of curiosity, do you plan to marry and have children some day? If so, what will your plans for childcare be? What factors do you envision influencing your decisions?

If you don't..."

Interesting question. I have thought about it before, though I still think it's a little too early to even remotely accurately predict my future. But if I were an adult right now, no, I'm not too interested in marrying and having kids, though who knows, maybe I will.

Part of the reason why--and I know I'm going to sound like an extremely bitchy selfish douchebag right now--is that I don't want to devote my life completely to another. I have so many things in my head I plan on doing when I grow up. Ever since I formed the tiniest plan of what I wanted to do when I grew up, I never seem to have enough time to devote it to what I have a passion for. Like I said, it's a bit too early to accurately predict, but hypothetically, if I were an adult right now--I would not want to be a housewife.

Another reason is what I've observed about my parents. Overall they get along well as both spouses and parents, but sometimes when I just peek over to my mom, she looks so freaking tired. Same thing with my dad. My own parents don't seem to be particularly passionate about what they do for a living. I just...when I grow up, I NEVER want to be like that. I want to spend my life doing something I love.

Also the fact that I feel that I'm too impatient for the job. I have tried to work with kids younger than me before, and again, while I may sound like a whiny douchebag right now--I didn't really like it. It's just not as rewarding for me as it might be for others.

I'm aware, or aware enough at least, to know that my parents have waaaaaaay more experience than I do, and that as I grow up my perspective of things are probably going to change. Perhaps when I grow up, I'll adapt to the stuff I don't like as much right now and maybe become a housewife, or simply just get married and have kids.

There is another important factor into my personal preference right now--that I've never been in a relationship before. I've simply never been interested enough, partly because teenage and school drama seemed so pointless. As far as I can see, most teenage relationships last about...let's see, thirty seconds or less. If I ever do get in a relationship, I'd like to wait until college or later to try it out.

But, I'm still a pretty young teenager, and like you said, I don't know everything. And sometimes in life, things just go wrong.

As for factors that influence a woman's decision to become a housewife besides patriarchy...well, I'm not sure exactly. Maybe it's that they find the idea of raising kids to be an honorable choice. I mean, what's not honorable about devoting your life to someone else's? Or they have worked with kids before and find the experience rewarding, maybe? I'm also guessing that while growing up, they might have found the idea of working for a living to be not as appealing as it might be to others. And the last one--I've been told this soooooo many times by my friends who do wish to be housewives--they don't want to die alone, they want to die surrounded by a happy family and with the satisfaction that someone else will live a nice life. That's just my guess, I've always had a bit of trouble thinking from that perspective, because if I were an adult right now I would not want to be a housewife.

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "First, spare the drama....I'm not flipping my lid. We're just having a discussion. I don't like your views and you don't like mine and we are hashing it out. Truth is, I would genuinely like to understand your position. "

Well to be honest I'm kinda worn out on this one. If you're genuinely interested in this kind of thing there are millions of books written on it that explain it better than I, anyway.

As to patronising teenagers, it is very easy to have opinions and to say what you will and won't do when you are very far removed from facing a certain situation that other people have to face.

I can't say that I've met too many adults who have the problems and mysteries of life sorted. I think it's better to let teenagers face things head on and make their own decisions. I didn't plan to have children from when I was 14 and didn't up until this point. Was it the right decision? Fuck knows.

However, it's awfully tiresome being told by adults "when you get older and have this amazing adult perspective...." You don't get an amazing adult perspective unless you work really hard at it. You don't just automatically know great things via the process of growing older. Even then the most potent thing you learn is how much you've still got to learn.

Anyway, my point is these conversations are better served without people repeatedly pointing out to Jocelyn that she's 13 and has " a lot to learn". As far as I can tell what is relevant to her arguments is contained within the paragraphs of text that she's writing.

[[deleted user]]

However, it's awfully tiresome being told by adults "when you get older and have this amazing adult perspective...." You don't get an amazing adult perspective unless you work really hard at it. You don't just automatically know great things via the process of growing older. Even then the most potent thing you learn is how much you've still got to learn.

That's true. I only got interested in the stuff I do know because I actively pursued it, not because it randomly came out of nowhere as I got older. I'm pretty sure this applies to everyone else with a particular passion that they follow, or unique perspective that they see out of.

On the other hand though, I have had my moments when I think the world revolves around me, and my thoughts were usually something like, "OMG WOE IS ME I LIVE SUCH A HORRRRRRIBLE LIFE WAAAAAAAAH," which has slowly disappeared as I've gotten older. But either way, I still actively learned about what I wanted.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: Well to be honest I'm kinda worn out on this one. If you're genuinely interested in this kind of thing there are millions of books written on it that explain it better than I, anyway.

As to patronising teenagers, it is very easy to have opinions and to say what you will and won't do when you are very far removed from facing a certain situation that other people have to face.

I can't say that I've met too many adults who have the problems and mysteries of life sorted. I think it's better to let teenagers face things head on and make their own decisions. I didn't plan to have children from when I was 14 and didn't up until this point. Was it the right decision? Fuck knows.

However, it's awfully tiresome being told by adults "when you get older and have this amazing adult perspective...." You don't get an amazing adult perspective unless you work really hard at it. You don't just automatically know great things via the process of growing older. Even then the most potent thing you learn is how much you've still got to learn.

Anyway, my point is these conversations are better served without people repeatedly pointing out to Jocelyn that she's 13 and has " a lot to learn". As far as I can tell what is relevant to her arguments is contained within the paragraphs of text that she's writing.."

I know that I can read books on this and I actually have. I was trying to understand you and your viewpoint. If I read a book written by someone other than you, I get their viewpoint, in their words.... not necessarily yours.

I know that simply growing older doesn't automatically give you amazing insight. Sometimes life experiences do help with that, though. The question is does this particular teenager have enough life experiences to make an accurate judgement call on women who choose to become housewives? (and I am referring to much more than, "I know that I don't want to be one.") She is very intelligent, but through some of her comments, I'm not convinced that she does on this issue because she inaccurately generalized and stereotyped an entire group of women and the possible reasons behind why they make some of their life choices. What if I made the generalization that I also think that you, as a childless divorced male, probably don't have enough life experience in this area to do it either?

I'm not saying that one has to be a housewife to understand my position regarding this. One doesn't. One just has to have enough life experience to know that all housewives are not uneducated, they don't necessarily lack ambition, are not all lazy and usually do more than clean house.

[Mochaspresso]

Jocelyn wrote: Interesting question. I have thought about it before, though I still think it's a little too early to even remotely accurately predict my future. But if I were an adult right now, no, I'm not too interested in marrying and having kids, though who knows, maybe I will.

Part of the reason why--and I know I'm going to sound like an extremely bitchy selfish douchebag right now--is that I don't want to devote my life completely to another. I have so many things in my head I plan on doing when I grow up. Ever since I formed the tiniest plan of what I wanted to do when I grew up, I never seem to have enough time to devote it to what I have a passion for. Like I said, it's a bit too early to accurately predict, but hypothetically, if I were an adult right now--I would not want to be a housewife.

Another reason is what I've observed about my parents. Overall they get along well as both spouses and parents, but sometimes when I just peek over to my mom, she looks so freaking tired. Same thing with my dad. My own parents don't seem to be particularly passionate about what they do for a living. I just...when I grow up, I NEVER want to be like that. I want to spend my life doing something I love.

Also the fact that I feel that I'm too impatient for the job. I have tried to work with kids younger than me before, and again, while I may sound like a whiny douchebag right now--I didn't really like it. It's just not as rewarding for me as it might be for others.

I'm aware, or aware enough at least, to know that my parents have waaaaaaay more experience than I do, and that as I grow up my perspective of things are probably going to change. Perhaps when I grow up, I'll adapt to the stuff I don't like as much right now and maybe become a housewife, or simply just get married and have kids.

There is another important factor into my personal preference right now--that I've never been in a relationship before. I've simply never been interested enough, partly because teenage and school drama seemed so pointless. As far as I can see, most teenage relationships last about...let's see, thirty seconds or less. If I ever do get in a relationship, I'd like to wait until college or later to try it out.

But, I'm still a pretty young teenager, and like you said, I don't know everything. And sometimes in life, things just go wrong.

As for factors that influence a woman's decision to become a housewife besides patriarchy...well, I'm not sure exactly. Maybe it's that they find the idea of raising kids to be an honorable choice. I mean, what's not honorable about devoting your life to someone else's? Or they have worked with kids before and find the experience rewarding, maybe? I'm also guessing that while growing up, they might have found the idea of working for a living to be not as appealing as it might be to others. And the last one--I've been told this soooooo many times by my friends who do wish to be housewives--they don't want to die alone, they want to die surrounded by a happy family and with the satisfaction that someone else will live a nice life. That's just my guess, I've always had a bit of trouble thinking from that perspective, because if I were an adult right now I would not want to be a housewife..."

All of this is fair enough. Even though I don't agree with everything, I can respect your opinion. I just want you to realize that I didn't have a problem with you not wanting to be a housewife. That choice is perfectly fine. What I had a problem with is the inaccurate generalizations made about them earlier in this discussion.

btw, working with other people's kids isn't really the exact same thing as raising your own. If that were the case, plenty of middle school teachers wouldn't have kids. ;)

[[deleted user]]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "btw, working with other people's kids isn't really the exact same thing as raising your own. If that were the case, plenty of middle school teachers wouldn't have kids. ;)"

I understand that. I just don't like kids in general...I've had to look after my sister before. Wait, scratch that. I don't NOT like kids...I just don't want them to be a major part of my life.

As for not being a housewife, no problem :) I never thought you had a problem with not being a housewife.

[[deleted user]]

I know that simply growing older doesn't automatically give you amazing insight. Sometimes life experiences do help with that, though. The question is does this particular teenager have enough life experiences to make an accurate judgement call on women who choose to become housewives? (and I am referring to much more than, "I know that I don't want to be one.") She is very intelligent, but through some of her comments, I'm not convinced that she does on this issue because she inaccurately generalized and stereotyped an entire group of women and the possible reasons behind why they make some of their life choices. What if I made the generalization that I also think that you, as a childless divorced male, probably don't have enough life experience in this area to do it either?

I'm not saying that one has to be a housewife to understand my position regarding this. One doesn't. One just has to have enough life experience to know that all housewives are not uneducated, they don't necessarily lack ambition, are not all lazy and usually do more than clean house.

Interesting point. Maybe the lack of life experience is one of the reasons why the teenage pregnancy levels in the U.S. are so high, or prostitution and drugs and all that. Some teenagers think they have enough knowledge and experience to do things, or sometimes they just don't care.

[Angie Elle]

Jocelyn wrote: "I know that simply growing older doesn't automatically give you amazing insight. Sometimes life experiences do help with that, though. The question is does this particular teenager have enough life..."

And many times they are lacking the parental guidance needed to help them make wise choices.

[[deleted user]]

Angie wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "I know that simply growing older doesn't automatically give you amazing insight. Sometimes life experiences do help with that, though. The question is does this particular teenager ..."

Sad, but true.

[[deleted user]]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "She is very intelligent, but through some of her comments, I'm not convinced that she does on this issue because she inaccurately generalized and stereotyped an entire group of women and the possible reasons behind why they make some of their life choices."

Just as a clarification, that was more of a hypothesis and speculation, not exactly why I believed people became housewives. Like I said, I have trouble thinking from the "I want to be a housewife" perspective. I'm pretty sure, like you said, a lot of it is inaccurate; most of it I based off just my common sense and what my peers have told me as to their reasons for wanting to be a housewife, which is definitely not the most accurate way of speculating it.

But you're right, I don't have much experience on this issue...as you can see I've contradicted myself multiple times, backtracked, had to clarify this and that, etc. Most of what I believe is based on what I've read about feminism, from what I speculate about it, and talked about it. This is the first in-depth discussion of feminism I've had so far. But hey, it's fun :) And if I make a dumbass of myself while I'm at it...*shrug* Whatever, that's the whole point.

Thanks for the compliment :)

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "I know that I can read books on this and I actually have. I was trying to understand you and your viewpoint. If I read a book written by someone other than you, I get their viewpoint, in their words.... not necessarily yours."

Not really sure why you'd be interested in my viewpoint rather than anybody else's *shrug*

I know that simply growing older doesn't automatically give you amazing insight. Sometimes life experiences do help with that, though. The question is does this particular teenager have enough life experiences to make an accurate judgement call on women who choose to become housewives? (and I am referring to much more than, "I know that I don't want to be one.") She is very intelligent, but through some of her comments, I'm not convinced that she does on this issue because she inaccurately generalized and stereotyped an entire group of women and the possible reasons behind why they make some of their life choices. What if I made the generalization that I also think that you, as a childless divorced male, probably don't have enough life experience in this area to do it either?

Interestingly enough, we're asked to make the most major of life decisions when we're thirteen. How we succeed at exams throughout our teenage years define the course for the rest of our lives. We make several decisions at 13, 15, 17 (depending on the country) as to what subjects we take at school affecting what career we eventually go on to do. One *can* close off the option to become a doctor, lawyer, architect, engineer, and so on quite easily at this stage but getting back on the road to parenthood is considerably easier (for some reason you don't need to pass an exam to do it - apparently everyone is qualified for this most ridiculously difficult and time-consuming of tasks)

Life experiences change you, if you reflect upon them and Jocelyn will become smarter than she is now - I've already mentioned - but she has a right to state what she thinks here and now without her age being brought into it. We all make decisions about our future based on what if's and maybes. Don't get me wrong, I think that most 13 yr olds are probably terrible decision makers but then they're the ones who grow up to be bad decision makers too. No-one, least of all Jocelyn is saying that she will never consider that motherhood might be an option in her life, but the whole point of this conversation is to state that it's one option amongst many and that she shouldn't be overtly pushed down that path (and make no mistake, people *will* say to her repeatedly "aren't you going to have kids" "when will you have kids" and "why not, it's such a shame you're not going to have kids. Along with "it's natural that you should have kids" and "you're a strange woman for not having kids") if she does make that choice she'll do so with her eyes open about what it involves hopefully and not because it's an *ought*.

I'm not divorced, btw. ;) Is that a demographic - divorced males?

I think any demographic, according to this conversation, would be the wrong demographic to know about the choice to be a housewife except the person who chose to be a housewife. In some respects I actually agree with that, but not really in the terms of this conversation which was fundamentally about choice and gender stereotyping.

[Mochaspresso]

Not really sure why you'd be interested in my viewpoint rather than anybody else's *shrug*.



You were one of those who made comments regarding housewifery and feminism that I disagreed with.



Interestingly enough, we're asked to make the most major of life decisions when we're thirteen. How we succeed at exams throughout our teenage years define the course for the rest of our lives. We make several decisions at 13, 15, 17 (depending on the country) as to what subjects we take at school affecting what career we eventually go on to do. One *can* close off the option to become a doctor, lawyer, architect, engineer, and so on quite easily at this stage but getting back on the road to parenthood is considerably easier (for some reason you don't need to pass an exam to do it - apparently everyone is qualified for this most ridiculously difficult and time-consuming of tasks)



I think the key difference is that I don't value one particular road over another. Yes, you are right in that it probably is much easier to derail someone from certain careers as opposed to others...but I don't think that this derailment has to be permanent. I also don't view those roads as an "either/or and nothing in between option". Doctors, lawyers, engineers and architects in this world have children too.

To bring the conversation back to Twilight, I also don't think a novel is powerful enough to derail a young girl into wanting to forgo a career in favor of being a housewife.




Life experiences change you, if you reflect upon them and Jocelyn will become smarter than she is now - I've already mentioned - but she has a right to state what she thinks here and now without her age being brought into it. We all make decisions about our future based on what if's and maybes. Don't get me wrong, I think that most 13 yr olds are probably terrible decision makers but then they're the ones who grow up to be bad decision makers too. No-one, least of all Jocelyn is saying that she will never consider that motherhood might be an option in her life, but the whole point of this conversation is to state that it's one option amongst many and that she shouldn't be overtly pushed down that path (and make no mistake, people *will* say to her repeatedly "aren't you going to have kids" "when will you have kids" and "why not, it's such a shame you're not going to have kids. Along with "it's natural that you should have kids" and "you're a strange woman for not having kids") if she does make that choice she'll do so with her eyes open about what it involves hopefully and not because it's an *ought*.




Now, this I do agree with. If she decides not to have children, there will be people in the world who will think that it is odd. But that probably won't happen until she is an adult...and most likely later on in adulthood. Probably as she nears her 30's. I don't like it...but it probably will happen.

But here is the thing....if she is being given misinformation about certain choices and she is already forming her life decisions based on that misinformation, is that really any better? Any more "authentic"? The same way that it isn't good to push her toward motherhood if that isn't what she wants....it is also not good to give her the impression that she is somehow a failure with no ambition if she decides one day in the future that she actually does want to have children and be home with them. That seems rather dystopian to me. Very "Handmaid's Tale"esque where women are separated into "classes of women".





I'm not divorced, btw. ;) Is that a demographic - divorced males?

I think any demographic, according to this conversation, would be the wrong demographic to know about the choice to be a housewife except the person who chose to be a housewife. In some respects I actually agree with that, but not really in the terms of this conversation which was fundamentally about choice and gender stereotyping. "



My apologies, I thought it was you that mentioned having a conversation with an ex wife.

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: I think the key difference is that I don't value one particular road over another. Yes, you are right in that it probably is much easier to derail someone from certain careers as opposed to others...but I don't think that this derailment has to be permanent. I also don't view those roads as an "either/or and nothing in between option". Doctors, lawyers, engineers and architects in this world have children too.

You probably do or did value one over the other since you picked one. That said, this has never been an argument about "value" for me, it's just everyone in this thread determined to make it into a "I think I'm better than..." conversation. It's a bout making choices that are authentic and free from pressures and constraints... but no-one could see the difference and I got bored with finding new ways to explain it.

To bring the conversation back to Twilight, I also don't think a novel is powerful enough to derail a young girl into wanting to forgo a career in favor of being a housewife.

Actually I think it's a little circular. Twilight got popular because it expressed a POV that a lot of people happen to agree with and a lot of people have a tendency to seek validation from the literature that they read. Trouble is there's a snowball effect, a book gets popular and ideas circulate amongst friends. Literature has always been one of the most powerful ways that people convey ideas.

Now, this I do agree with. If she decides not to have children, there will be people in the world who will think that it is odd. But that probably won't happen until she is an adult...and most likely later on in adulthood. Probably as she nears her 30's. I don't like it...but it probably will happen.

Myself and my ex got it "constantly" when we were 14-18. (mayeb you haven't had this particular experience??) nearly every conversation with every adult relative got around to the subject and half an hour of disbelief and horror ensued. a) of course you want to have kids. b) you're far too young to make yhat decision, you'll change your mind c) every woman has a biological clock, wait until you get to ... x age a few years in the future depending upon what age this conversation is had. very tiring. Very coercive.

But here is the thing....if she is being given misinformation about certain choices and she is already forming her life decisions based on that misinformation, is that really any better? Any more "authentic"? The same way that it isn't good to push her toward motherhood if that isn't what she wants....it is also not good to give her the impression that she is somehow a failure with no ambition if she decides one day in the future that she actually does want to have children and be home with them. That seems rather dystopian to me. Very "Handmaid's Tale"esque where women are separated into "classes of women".

I'm afraid that lifestyle choices do have value judgements attached to them. If I said that a guy's highest ambition was to be a "dustman" or a roadsweeper, you'd think "hmm, you should aim higher than that" and yet these are valuable jobs that need doing to make our society better. You happen to think housewifery is a good thing to strive for, good for you... I think a lot of people could do more with themselves. However, I think what's valuable is the ability to have debates and to make choices freely.

My apologies, I thought it was you that mentioned having a conversation with an ex wife

No, I had a partner for 15 years but we didn't marry. It's no problem I wasn't offended... I just decided to irritate you by pointing out that you made an assumption ;)

[Gerd]

Alex wrote: "... I think a lot of people could do more with themselves."

Ah, but that's always a difficult statement to make. Ask any teenager, who's been told exactly that for the umpteenth time. :)

How do you define "do more" and to what avail? Unless they are discontent with what they do, and in a way that actively impairs their ability to enjoy their life – what could be the point?

[Alex]

Gerd wrote: "Alex wrote: "How do you define "do more" and to what avail? Unless they are discontent with what they do, and in a way that actively impairs their ability to enjoy their life – what could be the point?"

At this juncture do I really need to? Ok, fail at school, be a dustman .... let's presume that doesn't impair one's ability to enjoy life in any manner at all. Personally I'm very pleased that I was inspired to achieve more than I thought that I would because I like my job/lifestyle that doesn't involve collecting garbage on a daily basis.

[Gerd]

Alex wrote: " Personally I'm very pleased that I was inspired to achieve more than I thought that I would because I like my job/lifestyle that doesn't involve collecting garbage on a daily basis."

So, is Mr. Anti-Capitalism in reality a career man? :D

The problem is, you only look at a small part of a persons life, like for example what they (have to) do to earn a living - but not at how they do live.


Alex wrote: "I like my job/lifestyle that doesn't involve collecting garbage on a daily basis."

That might be the problem, you approach these things way too intellectual.
Dustman = Failed at School.
You see how snobbish that sounds?

[Gergana]

I was once a fan of Twilight. Not "the biggest fan ever lived" like my friends,but still... a fan. And I was like this for a month. Then I thought: This books make vampires seem... good! And those murders of people...It is like they say that killing people is nothing to worry about.
So now I don`t like Twilight and when somebody says something like "Twilight is a good book!" or "I like it!". I answer: No it is not a good book. The characters are stupid and too simple. And you know the book shows what is the author like. And yeah Stefanie Mayer has imagination, but.....
And that goes on and on for hours. So I think that people who dislike Twilight are really obsessed with it.

[Alex]

Gerd wrote: "So, is Mr. Anti-Capitalism in reality a career man? :D

The problem is, you only look at a small part of a persons life, like for example what they (have to) do to earn a living - but not at how they do live.



heh I am not getting into an entire debate about my other political and social beliefs as well :p We would be here a looooong long time. We already have been :D

I'm not a "career" man though, no. I confess that I like to be able to earn myself a cup of coffee and the money for a new pair of shoes, though.

Ok sure, people have interests outside of being a dustman. Cool. But given the choice don't you think someone would be able to pay better attention to those interests if they had an income, a decent house to live in, enough money to bring up the children they'll inevitably have with clohes to clothe them, food to feed them and money for PCs and nice stuff? And to not have to spend 8 hours of every day doing a shit job with probably little security .... or having a really cool non-stressful job that makes you feel valued on a daily basis and brings in enough money to look after and educate these children well?

Seems like a no-brainer to give yourself options, to me.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Alex wrote: "How do you define "do more" and to what avail? Unless they are discontent with what they do, and in a way that actively impairs their ability to enjoy their life – what co..."

To Alex....

An ex boyfriend of mine is a trash collector. He didn't "fail at school"....he couldn't considering that in NYC, you have to take a civil service exam to get a job as a trash collector. Plus, he actually makes more than my other ex-boyfriend, the college professor and more than I do, with a Masters Degree. We didn't work out but he is a decent person and we are still friends.

You seem to judge people and make assumptions about them based on what they do for a living.

Would I encourage someone to be a trash collector if that's what they wanted to do? Yes, because at least in NYC, it is a high paying job with excellent benefits and it is virtually immune from lay-offs. I've never encountered an unemployed sanitation worker in NY and I am fairly certain that is true of other large municipalities in the US. Plus, at least here in NY, there is no social stigma or stereotype associated with that line of work.

This goes back to the point that I was trying to get across about stereotypes and misinformation.

[Alex]

Oh my, you're really determined to beat my arguments down. I'm glad you feel it's worth it ;) Fine, pick another low status job in your area then. I'm sure there is one. I'm pretty sure that America has an underclass/working class.

Knock yourselves out. This is getting ridiculous. I should do what I keep saying I'm going to and not reply... I think at this point reading New Moon would be more worth my time.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: You probably do or did value one over the other since you picked one. That said, this has never been an argument about "value" for me, it's just everyone in this thread determined to make it into a "I think I'm better than..." conversation. It's a bout making choices that are authentic and free from pressures and constraints... but no-one could see the difference and I got bored with finding new ways to explain it.

I think making choices with faulty, biased misinformation is the biggest constraint of all.


Actually I think it's a little circular. Twilight got popular because it expressed a POV that a lot of people happen to agree with and a lot of people have a tendency to seek validation from the literature that they read. Trouble is there's a snowball effect, a book gets popular and ideas circulate amongst friends. Literature has always been one of the most powerful ways that people convey ideas.

True...but honestly, I don't see Twilight becoming that type of book. I think you're giving it too much credit and power.





I'm afraid that lifestyle choices do have value judgements attached to them. If I said that a guy's highest ambition was to be a "dustman" or a roadsweeper, you'd think "hmm, you should aim higher than that" and yet these are valuable jobs that need doing to make our society better. You happen to think housewifery is a good thing to strive for, good for you... I think a lot of people could do more with themselves. However, I think what's valuable is the ability to have debates and to make choices freely.

Yes, we've already established that "do more" means something entirely different to me. We will not agree on that, it seems.

No, I had a partner for 15 years but we didn't marry. It's no problem I wasn't offended... I just decided to irritate you by pointing out that you made an assumption ;)

15 years is a very long time. Practically married in my book. I'll keep the "divorced in spirit if not in law" label for you anyway.....whether you want it or not. How's that for an assumption?

[[deleted user]]

Alex wrote: "Knock yourselves out. This is getting ridiculous. I should do what I keep saying I'm going to and not reply... I think at this point reading New Moon would be more worth my time."

Haha :) If you're actually going to read it, be warned: the plot mainly consists of pissing and moaning on Bella's part, and not much else.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: "Oh my, you're really determined to beat my arguments down. I'm glad you feel it's worth it ;) Fine, pick another low status job in your area then. I'm sure there is one. I'm pretty sure that Am..."

um-hum. just as I thought....I didn't misunderstand you at all.

makes me wonder what other rather nasty "isms" you might be inclined to reveal under the guise of psuedo-intellectualism.

[Mochaspresso]

Jocelyn wrote: "Alex wrote: "Knock yourselves out. This is getting ridiculous. I should do what I keep saying I'm going to and not reply... I think at this point reading New Moon would be more worth my time."

Hah..."

That's actually correct. New Moon is the worst book in the series.

[[deleted user]]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "But here is the thing....if she is being given misinformation about certain choices and she is already forming her life decisions based on that misinformation, is that really any better? Any more "authentic"?"

Heh, good point. I usually disagree with you, but I'd never thought of that. I guess it's true that a woman's decision to be a non-housewife can be just as inauthentic as a woman's decision to be a housewife.

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "um-hum. just as I thought....I didn't misunderstand you at all.

makes me wonder what other rather nasty "isms" you might be inclined to reveal under the guise of psuedo-intellectualism. "

Ok, you take care now.

[Mochaspresso]

Jocelyn wrote: Heh, good point. I usually disagree with you, but I'd never thought of that. I guess it's true that a woman's decision to be a non-housewife can be just as inauthentic as a woman's decision to be a housewife.
...

With all this talk about what is authentic or inauthentic, I think my mother gave me the absolute best advise for making an "authentic" choice. She always encouraged me to do what made me happy. That was it. Actually, I like the way Anderson Cooper says that his Mom phrased the same sentiment to him... "Follow your bliss". It seems to me that if you are doing that, whatever choice you make will be authentic.

[Mochaspresso]

So what was decided? Are people who dislike Twilight obsessed with Twilight?

I say no, the people who merely dislike it are not. Those who vehemently hate it, though? That may actually be a different story.

[Kirby]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "So what was decided? Are people who dislike Twilight obsessed with Twilight?

I say no, the people who merely dislike it are not. Those who vehemently hate it, though? That may actually be a dif..."

agreed. someone in another thread linked to a blog where some woman has been picking apart every sentence of twilight for over two years! that sounds very obsessive to me.

[Mickey]

Kirby wrote: "someone in another thread linked to a blog where some woman has been picking apart every sentence of twilight for over two years! that sounds very obsessive to me."

You beat me to it, Kirby. I wanted to talk about how obsessive this lady must be to put so much time and effort into trashing Twilight.

Although I would also like to point out the irony that in the thread titled "Is Twilight Antifemenist (sic)?", we are discussing an obsessive blogger and on "Are People who dislike the book obsessed?" the discussion is about feminism. The way no one can stay on topic around here makes it difficult to find any comments you made in response to others. Looking at topics rarely gives any real clues.

The blog, which is called Reasoning with Vampires, literally goes sentence by sentence. It's sort of the polar opposite of something that I saw in Moscow. There is a famous book by Mikhail Bulgakov called The Master and Margarita which partly took place in a certain apartment building. If you go to this building, the walls, the floor, the stairs are covered in graffiti, mostly excerpts from the book. It's said that the entire book has been written inside the building as a tribute by fans. (I won't vouch for the veracity of that. It's hard to believe that the more insignificant sentences are all in there as well, but there was a lot of writing in that building.)

One approach really showcases the book and shows an appreciation and love towards literature and the other is all about making people feel superior to a book. That's a big difference to me.

[[deleted user]]

Gerd wrote: "Alex wrote: " Personally I'm very pleased that I was inspired to achieve more than I thought that I would because I like my job/lifestyle that doesn't involve collecting garbage on a daily basis."
..."

I usually agree with Alex, but in this case I have to agree with you Gerd. I guess Alex has a much more radical approach to things than the rest of us do. It is slightly unfair to put people in a box before knowing them personally.

On the the other hand though....I think it's just the connotation of being a dustman or janitor or whatever. I mean, how many parents do you think drill into their kids' heads "YOU MUST NOT WORK AT MCDONALD'S OR BE A TRASH COLLECTOR...." I'm not saying that doing those things are bad, but in general they're not seen as respectable occupations because 1) they don't require a terrible amount of academic education to succeed in, and 2) they have a reputation for being low-paying. (emphasis on "reputation," I'm aware that some of those jobs can pay quite high.)

Okay, ignore that now everyone :) I don't want to derail the conversation.

[Mochaspresso]

Jocelyn wrote: I usually agree with Alex, but in this case I have to agree with you Gerd. I guess Alex has a much more radical approach to things than the rest of us do. It is slightly unfair to put people in a box before knowing them personally.

On the the other hand though....I think it's just the connotation of being a dustman or janitor or whatever. I mean, how many parents do you think drill into their kids' heads "YOU MUST NOT WORK AT MCDONALD'S OR BE A TRASH COLLECTOR...." I'm not saying that doing those things are bad, but in general they're not seen as respectable occupations because 1) they don't require a terrible amount of academic education to succeed in, and 2) they have a reputation for being low-paying. (emphasis on "reputation," I'm aware that some of those jobs can pay quite high.)

Okay, ignore that now everyone :) I don't want to derail the conversation. ."

I agree that this happens to young people a lot. However, I do think there are parents in the world who manage to do this without also instilling a sense of classism or socio-economic biases in their children. It is possible to inspire kids and guide them in certain directions without putting down others.

(As I think about it, perhaps the fact that my parents were immigrants and that I work in a community full of immigrants is what shapes my thinking....but I was actually never raised to think that there was any such thing as a "bad job". Conditioning at work??!!!!)

I will concede that this might not actually represent the typical "American" way of thinking, though. At least, not until that "lowly person with the shit job" is buying the house next door to them with cash that they were able to save from their supposed "lowly shit jobs" and sending their kids to the same schools as them. Even more ironically, later on asking my father for help with getting their sons and daughters who graduated college but still can't find work a job.

...on my way to derailing the converation even further, I think.

The reason why the unemployment rate is where it is isn't entirely because of any governmental/political machinations. Part of it is because an entire generation of young people have been raised to have a false sense of entitlement and think that certain jobs are beneath them and the previous generation is so over-extended with debt that they can't afford to take a lesser job. They resist the idea of downsizing too long and reject "lesser jobs" for too long and then their situations become dire. Then they see the immigrant populations doing so well and don't understand it or even worse, let misguided bias and prejudice affect how they see things. The immigrant populations do well over time because they WORK HARD....WORK HARD!!!! and they took the "lowly shit jobs" that no one else would take...and many of those jobs eventually lead to or become union jobs with stability, high pay and good benefits.

(This part pertains to Americans......Immigrants don't take jobs away from Americans. Immigrants take the jobs that the Americans refuse to take.)

Most importantly, their self worth and sense of purpose in life was never wrapped up in what they do careerwise. It was about hard work, family and how you live your life.

Wow, where did that come from? I realize that bringing highly personal side rants about immigration is probably inappropriate, but I was thinking it, so I won't edit it out.

This part doesn't have anything to do with immigration at all. This part pertains to anyone and everyone.....In my opinion, that is what the older generations have forgotten to instill in their kids. In their quest to make sure that their kids "do better", they've lost sight of what "better" actually is.

(again...immigration really has nothing to do with any of this at all. That was just me speculating on why I probably don't see anything wrong with certain jobs and it snowballed in my head into a side rant.)

wow, see what Twilight started? It's all Bella's fault.

[Gerd]

Jocelyn wrote: "On the the other hand though....I think it's just the connotation of being a dustman or janitor or whatever. I mean, how many parents do you think drill into their kids' heads "YOU MUST NOT WORK AT MCDONALD'S OR BE A TRASH COLLECTOR...." I'm not saying that doing those things are bad, but in general they're not seen as respectable occupations because 1) they don't require a terrible amount of academic education to succeed in, and 2) they have a reputation for being low-paying. (emphasis on "reputation," I'm aware that some of those jobs can pay quite high.)"

Oh, that's perfectly right.
But as said, the problem is putting people in a box for what do they for a living (nothing wrong with that if we were talking, say, drug dealers), instead of taking the time to first look at how they do their living.

To get a bit more back to the topic at hand, if not to the topic of the OT:
I do share Alex's view that we do not need a single book more to tell young girls that it might be okay to sacrifice their education and head straight for motherhood - because love will work out.

It worries me whenever I see the number of girls in the christian fiction section that say for themselves that all they want is to get married to their boyfriend and start a familiy after finishing High School - end of life plan. Which sure is great if you happen to be one of the very few for which love and partnership happen to work out for a lifetime, but statistcally spoken that's not planning for life, that's planning for disaster, because only one in three marriages survives.

[Alex]

What's quite amusing is that you all pretty much agree with me but you attempt really hard to twist my words to make me look like an arsehole because I'm an educated white middle-class male and therefore the enemy; which is also quite interesting in the context of a Twilight discussion.

Furthermore, I agree that I am in some respects the enemy and that I've become a bit of a middle-class educated snob. I don't think that makes my arguments wrong but it adds a certain colour to what I'm saying. Since I was brought up in a fairly bog-standard, poor, working class suburbia and educated myself out of it I see my own views from a socialist, working class POV. Interestingly, people reading my posts see an arrogant pseudo-intellectual who gets off on throwing long words at people and telling them what to do.

We could discuss marxism,. or immigrant communites, or feminism until we're blue in the fcae and we're unlikely to get anywhere because people come to this debate with a sense of self-worth that'd there to be knocked down or bolstered up. Whether that's initially with "I like Twilight" vs "I hate Twilight" being so important, or whether it's "you ought do this or that with your life" one thing I've learned here is how vehemently people want to own their opinions and how angry it makes them if someone from a different demographic steps in and says "hey, actually you're wrong". it's cross-cultural, cross, societal, cross gender, cross class, cross-country... we're all so staunchly determined cultural relativists now that we're don't actually want to listen to other people's angle of debate. it's all "how can you understand, you don't understand my experiences". I think maybe there are limitations with how far we can genuinely go with that.

Personally, as a working class kid made good (not amazing - in fact I earn less than a lot of working class professions, but it's outlook and ethos that defines class as much as anything. I spend my money on cappuccinos, nice clothes and kindle books these days...) I feel myself within a position to want to tell working class people that they should take what they can get or be oppressed by the middle and upper classes. My own personal frustrations - as you can see in this debate - are the lack of willingness of people to educate themselves so that they can take this fight to them. Working classes prefer to kill time, watch sports, read the Daily Mail and eat Chinese takeaways. I care a lot for people - I also become very frustrated by them. From your perspective it's all very black & white "I'm telling people what to do ... they make good decisions for themselves, how dare you judge their lives etc etc etc" From my perspective as a Socialist feminist I believe that empowerment happens if people rise up to take it.

So honestly, I don't think anyone here is majorly disagreeing with me, they just dislike my mode of expression and who I am personally (my Dad was disgusted when I said I thought I was middle class. There's a huge sense of class ownership people have - for me it just reflects the reality of a demographic .. I go to Opera not Football and I eat out at restaurants not McDonalds) because people like to own who they are.

And I think people like to own Twilight as well (same thing happened with Stephen King some time back). Damn to feminists or literary critics who say that this is a bad book. What do they know! This is our book and we love it. It speaks to us! In truth I don't know how I feel about that... I think it's bad in a lot of ways but as is obvious from this thread (and I knew already) you can't change people's devotions to something you feel is bad just by telling them it's bad. people change slowly and they adopt books like this to help define them and themselves amongst their peers. To everyone who gave this book 4-5 stars Twilight means something important and it's clear from these threads that a sense of Twilight community is really important to people ... I don't feel that I want to take that away from anyone, I think it's quite precious and yes I think there's a certain sense of feminist empowerment that this is very much a book that helps women define who they are and come together as women, even though it's as a type of women that I don't feel that much of a kinship with. Again, I think people have misunderstood/coloured my own sense of personal preference (entitlement, even) with my strong belief that everyone has and should have a right to choose and define themselves and who they want to be.

An interesting conversation in many ways, a bloody frustrating one in loads of others....

[Amy]

Personally, as a working class kid made good (not amazing - in fact I earn less than a lot of working class professions, but it's outlook and ethos that defines class as much as anything. I spend my money on cappuccinos, nice clothes and kindle books these days...) I feel myself within a position to want to tell working class people that they should take what they can get or be oppressed by the middle and upper classes. My own personal frustrations - as you can see in this debate - are the lack of willingness of people to educate themselves so that they can take this fight to them. Working classes prefer to kill time, watch sports, read the Daily Mail and eat Chinese takeaways. I care a lot for people - I also become very frustrated by them. From your perspective it's all very black & white

From your point of view it's black & white too. You keep referring to things as an occupation someone has to do as they haven't educated themselves... Sure, there's educating yourself but don't you see that Mocha Spresso was right about unemployment... She was saying it is not because of housewives. You're saying the normal middle-class male does work & the normal middle-class women... What? Oh, you're thinking she's bringing her kids up according to Twilight. I'm not twisting your words, I'm pointing out your side of the argument is flawed & not expressed... Well, correctly, I suppose. That's what I don't like. You personally, I don't care. You're not my enemy, because technically I suppose I'm a white middle class teenager. I don't wear designer, I do read ebooks, I don't watch sports or go to Opera, read the Daily Mail or eat takeaways (except KFC- but only for a special treat, I prefer eating at home & having a family meal, how is that for you? Is that 'killing' time? I say being in a restaurant could be killing time. Are you not killing time by being here? Not just you... But aren't you?)

Everyone has and should have a right to choose and define themselves and who they want to be.

K, we weren't arguing against that, were we?

[Alex]

Amy wrote: "From your point of view it's black & white too. You keep referring to things as an occupation someone has to do as they haven't educated themselves... Sure, there's educating yourself but don't you see that Mocha Spresso was right about unemployment... She was saying it is not because of housewives. You're saying the normal middle-class male does work & the normal middle-class women... What? Oh, you're thinking she's bringing her kids up according to Twilight. I'm not twisting your words, I'm pointing out your side of the argument is flawed & not expressed... Well, correctly, I suppose. That's what I don't like. You personally, I don't care. You're not my enemy, because technically I suppose I'm a white middle class teenager. I don't wear designer, I do read ebooks, I don't watch sports or go to Opera, read the Daily Mail or eat takeaways (except KFC- but only for a special treat, I prefer eating at home & having a family meal, how is that for you? Is that 'killing' time? I say being in a restaurant could be killing time. Are you not killing time by being here? Not just you... But aren't you?)."

Some good points here but I don't understand all you're trying to say. I don't think there's any question that if you have x education you have more career options open to you (although aspirationally a bunch of others shut behind you. Once you've worked in a library, it's tough to see yourself - aspirationally - as a garbage collector or a call center worker. personally, having worked in a call centre *after* I got qualified due to the recession/lack of jobs, I think people get treated like fucking shit and I'd like to give people the opportunity to not have to get treated like that. I always knew I had a way out, some people are stuck being bullied by management the rest of their lives)

You're dead right, I spend far more of my life killing time that not killing time. I meant to highlight the way that working class people kill time is very class-based. Going to a restaurant is a totally killing time, pointless activity. So are most of the things that we do when it comes down to it... the trouble is that working classes people often can't see beyond that and have aspirations ...well, they have aspirations but they aren't educational so they often don't get there.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: "What's quite amusing is that you all pretty much agree with me but you attempt really hard to twist my words to make me look like an arsehole because I'm an educated white middle-class male and the..."

I go to opera AND football. I eat at restaurants AND McDonald's but above all else prefer my own and mother's home cooking. Where do I fit (in your world view)?

You keep inserting that class issue into everything you say. That is the issue that I primarily had with you. I can't support a brand of feminism that encourages that much classism. In my opinion, that has always been feminism's biggest problem.

btw, I gave Twilight 4-5 stars because I found it to be a very entertaining read and I am already partial to the chic-lit/romance genre that Twilight fits in to. I'm still not quite clear why or how someone saw any type of anti-feminist agenda in this book. But I guess we have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think feminism should be concerning themselves with whether a woman wants to have a baby or not or whether she chooses to stay home with it or not. They should be concerned with her having the right to make those choices for herself.

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: I go to opera AND football. I eat at restaurants AND McDonald's but above all else prefer my own and mother's home cooking. Where do I fit (in your world view)?

I'm genuinely not sure if you're just being belligerent or you think that you're being really clever in cutting down my arguments or you genuinely think that I haven't thought these things through, or what?

I don't care what class you might or might not be.

You keep inserting that class issue into everything you say. That is the issue that I primarily had with you. I can't support a brand of feminism that encourages that much classism. In my opinion, that has always been feminism's biggest problem.

Again, reduction of a complex train of thought to an "ism" because it makes you feel better to put other people in boxes whilst telling them that they put things in boxes. Quite ironic that you're the one who is boxing things up, really. I could go on all night about the complexities and dynamics of shifting class structures and gender types and power structures if you like. I really don't thing things are simple so why do you keep acting as if I do?

Feminism doesn't involve classism. You're talking crap.

btw, I gave Twilight 4-5 stars because I found it to be a very entertaining read and I am already partial to the chic-lit/romance genre that Twilight fits in to. I'm still not quite clear why or how someone saw any type of anti-feminist agenda in this book. But I guess we have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think feminism should be concerning themselves with whether a woman wants to have a baby or not or whether she chooses to stay home with it or not. They should be concerned with her having the right to make those choices for herself.

Well, I think that ground has been more than adequately covered so I'm struggling to see how you missed it.

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: They should be concerned with her having the right to make those choices for herself.

Which nobody has at any point argued against.

[Mochaspresso]

Alex wrote: "Mocha Spresso wrote: "I go to opera AND football. I eat at restaurants AND McDonald's but above all else prefer my own and mother's cooking. Where do I fit (in your world view)? You keep inserting ..."

Woah. lol.

Sorry, to laugh. This isn't about one-upmanship for me. You keep making these statements regarding class in the midst of a discussion about feminism and you don't seem to understand why some women might take offense to some of these statements. Then you try to justify it with more statements about class.

Everyone doesn't fit into a neat little box....except maybe the "housewife". You had no problems sticking her into a "neat little box".

...feminism's biggest problem.....

I don't mean to come across as an arrogant bully. I guess this brand of feminism is my verson of "I hate Twlight!!" obsession. I will try to let it go now. It will probably be hard, but I will try.

[Alex]

Mocha Spresso wrote: "Sorry, to laugh. This isn't about one-upmanship for me. You keep making these statements regarding class in the midst of a discussion about feminism and you don't seem to understand why some women might take offense to some of these statements. Then you try to justify it with more statements about class."

I made statements that were pretty relevant to the discussion.

Everyone doesn't fit into a neat little box....except maybe the "housewife". You had no problems sticking her into a "neat little box".

Yes, to go back to this issue. Everyone keeps saying that I put housewives in a box. I think you want to believe that I put housewives in a box when that's so far removed from what actually happened it's fucking ridiculous.