Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Virgil - Aeneid
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Aeneid, Book 12 and the Poem as a whole
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Here is an excellent overview of the Aeneid with pointed questions about Book 12 by classics scholar Madeline Miller:But beginning in the 1960s, a group of scholars, later dubbed the Harvard school, began to notice a number of alarming problems with such imperialist readings of the Aeneid. They pointed out incident after incident where Virgil undermined the sense of glorious progress, or even overturned it. Beneath the poem’s golden patina they found a far more pessimistic view, one that seriously questioned the idea of human progress and imperial power. This new reading hit Virgilian scholarship like a lightning bolt, revolutionizing and redefining our entire understanding of the Aeneid, Virgil, and Augustan history. Though the debate is ongoing, it is now the dominant interpretation in the field.
http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/essay...
Sorry, Thomas. I haven't yet begun reading Book 12. I'm still writing up thoughts on Book 4. Book 4 has engaged me more than any other and the discussion took place during a period in which I wasn't really able to participate. I'm hoping to start reading Book 12 Sunday.
It's interesting how certain books get singled out. Susanna Braund starts out her lecture on Book 11 by saying, "No one reads Book 11." But Book 12 is fascinating, so I'm looking forward to your thoughts!
Thomas, in your review of The Aeneid here on Goodreads, you said that this was your second time reading it, and it was better the second time around.Do you think most books are better the second time around?? I read once (I wish I could remember where I read this, and who said it) that a book is not really "read" until it's "reread."
If there's only x amount of time in ones life to read only x amount of books, are we better off reading more books, but never getting to reread any of them, or is it better to skip some books (even some of the "greats"), so that we can reread the "greats" we've already read??
You also wrote that you like Homer better than Vergil. It seems most people who have read Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid will list them (in terms of their favorites) in either this order:
1) Odyssey
2) Iliad
3) Aeneid
OR this order:
1) Odyssey
2) Aeneid
3) Iliad
I'm pretty far from finishing The Aeneid, but I'm curious why you like Homer's writing better than Vergil's. Is it the actual writer you like better, or is it that you like Homer's stories better than Vergil's???
(Yes, people HAVE asked me if I work for the FBI or CIA because I'm always asking so many questions -- hahaha!!! I don't work for either -- I'm just a curious soul!!!!)
Barbara wrote: "Thomas, in your review of The Aeneid here on Goodreads, you said that this was your second time reading it, and it was better the second time around.Do you think most books are better the second ..."
I think Patrice put it well. Great books have great depth, and it usually takes more than one reading to plumb that depth. Translation adds another dimension of difficulty, and works from other cultures require even more effort. I've learned a lot about ancient Greek culture in the past few years, and I'm able to read a little Greek, so I'm partial to Homer, probably for those reasons. I find his writing to be wonderfully direct, concise, and powerful. Maybe if I could read Latin I'd feel differently about Virgil. Actually, I'm sure I would. (I couldn't stand the Aeneid when I first read it in college, and didn't really want to read it for the group read here. But I'm glad I did. My opinion has changed completely.)
I re-read Joyce's Ulysses every five years or so, the same copy I bought at a garage sale for 50 cents twenty five years ago. I highlight or underline in a different colored pen each time I read it. It looks like a kindergarten class attacked it. But by doing this I can see not only how my understanding of the book has progressed, but how many layers of meaning there are in the text. Each time I read it I can see a little bit deeper into it, not only because I'm more familiar with the book, but because my perspective has changed. I've lived a little more, I've read a little more. I expect that our close reading of the Odyssey here will affect my next reading quite a bit.
And here is my order of preference, at the moment anyway:
1. Iliad
2. Aeneid
3. Odyssey
Thanks for a great question!!
Patrice wrote: "Oh wow! I just read this and I'm shocked. Since I fell behind I very, very guiltily decided to skip Book 11 and go straight to Book 12. This has really been bothering my OCD nature, I NEVER skip a word! "But 11 is the Camilla chapter! You have to read it!
At 1 Thomas wrote: "The final chapter begins with the fury of Turnus, which is compared to that of a "Punic lion." Turnus is described as "disordered, uncontrolled." His forces have suffered defeat and he decides to meet Aeneas in single combat. Latinus tries to calm him, but he insists: "Let me make my bargain: life for glory."
Before that can happen there is divine intervention once again. Juturna, who is a deity but is also the sister of Turnus, is encouraged by Juno to spread rumors throughout the Italian ranks in an effort to disrupt the match between Turnus and Aeneas. She incites the Italians with an omen that is designed to be misread as an indication of their triumph...."
Finished. I haven't thought Book 12 through yet. There's a lot there. Many aspects seem to me to be of importance.
More promises/vows. Turnus "Saw that they held him to his promise now" (Fitz 12.3). Turnus had made that promise. He "saw" that the Latins were going to hold him to it. But, really, would they have?
King Latinus wasn't going to hold him to that promise/that vow. "Latinus answered steadily," like a good helmsman, taking into account the big picture. Latinus says that he is "taking into account of all that may occur." He says, "Allow me these reflections, painful, yes, but open and above-board." He will find a different wife for Turnus.
This is what a good leader needs to do. It's what Aeneas should have done in Carthage. Latinus is now a wise leader. But he's not an effective leader. He's not capable of holding his men to the agreement he made.
Vergil, I think, might be putting Augustus forward as a leader capable of wisdom AND capable of controling his armies and capable of controlling his own emotions.
Amata didn't want to hold him to that promise. It didn't even seem that when push came to shove that the Latins held him to that promise. They seemed eager to fight once spears had been thrown.
WHY does Turnus have to fight? Because it comes down to the decision Turnus makes.
He says it's for the honor and glory. And I'm sure that was an aspect.
But I think at heart Turnus is fighting for the woman he loves. He says, "Let Lavinia be the winner's bride." (That's his focus. The rest of the Latins were never fighting simply so Turnus to marry Lavinia.)
Might Turnus have been swayed by the pleas of Amata, begging, using the same words Dido had used, have pity on our "declining house"?
I don't know. But immediately after the pleas of Amata, he looked again at Lavinia, her tears, her burning cheeks. She burned for him. She didn't beg him to let her go. And "desire stung the young man as he gazed."
Vergil writes, "He burned yet more for battle." Which COULD be read that he burned for battle more than he burned for her. But I think it means that having seen her with her blushing cheeks and tears, he burned more fiercely for her than he ever had before. He will fight for her. It is the ONLY way he will ever have her.
Turnus closes his passionate I-will-fight-speech with the words "let Lavinia be the prize."
And then, too, his closing insults towards Aeneas focus not on fighting skills or character flaws (earlier he had referred to Aeneas as "that Dardan prince who left his Asia [Dido] in the lurch"---implying that he, Turnus, will not desert the woman he loves, the woman [Lavinia] he has pledged to).
Turnus closes his speech negating Aeneas' manhood. He calls Aeneas "the Phrygian euchich." Word choice that makes me think that Turnus has been brooding about what will happen should Lavinia become the wife of Aeneas.
Before that can happen there is divine intervention once again. Juturna, who is a deity but is also the sister of Turnus, is encouraged by Juno to spread rumors throughout the Italian ranks in an effort to disrupt the match between Turnus and Aeneas. She incites the Italians with an omen that is designed to be misread as an indication of their triumph...."
Finished. I haven't thought Book 12 through yet. There's a lot there. Many aspects seem to me to be of importance.
More promises/vows. Turnus "Saw that they held him to his promise now" (Fitz 12.3). Turnus had made that promise. He "saw" that the Latins were going to hold him to it. But, really, would they have?
King Latinus wasn't going to hold him to that promise/that vow. "Latinus answered steadily," like a good helmsman, taking into account the big picture. Latinus says that he is "taking into account of all that may occur." He says, "Allow me these reflections, painful, yes, but open and above-board." He will find a different wife for Turnus.
This is what a good leader needs to do. It's what Aeneas should have done in Carthage. Latinus is now a wise leader. But he's not an effective leader. He's not capable of holding his men to the agreement he made.
Vergil, I think, might be putting Augustus forward as a leader capable of wisdom AND capable of controling his armies and capable of controlling his own emotions.
Amata didn't want to hold him to that promise. It didn't even seem that when push came to shove that the Latins held him to that promise. They seemed eager to fight once spears had been thrown.
WHY does Turnus have to fight? Because it comes down to the decision Turnus makes.
He says it's for the honor and glory. And I'm sure that was an aspect.
But I think at heart Turnus is fighting for the woman he loves. He says, "Let Lavinia be the winner's bride." (That's his focus. The rest of the Latins were never fighting simply so Turnus to marry Lavinia.)
Might Turnus have been swayed by the pleas of Amata, begging, using the same words Dido had used, have pity on our "declining house"?
I don't know. But immediately after the pleas of Amata, he looked again at Lavinia, her tears, her burning cheeks. She burned for him. She didn't beg him to let her go. And "desire stung the young man as he gazed."
Vergil writes, "He burned yet more for battle." Which COULD be read that he burned for battle more than he burned for her. But I think it means that having seen her with her blushing cheeks and tears, he burned more fiercely for her than he ever had before. He will fight for her. It is the ONLY way he will ever have her.
Turnus closes his passionate I-will-fight-speech with the words "let Lavinia be the prize."
And then, too, his closing insults towards Aeneas focus not on fighting skills or character flaws (earlier he had referred to Aeneas as "that Dardan prince who left his Asia [Dido] in the lurch"---implying that he, Turnus, will not desert the woman he loves, the woman [Lavinia] he has pledged to).
Turnus closes his speech negating Aeneas' manhood. He calls Aeneas "the Phrygian euchich." Word choice that makes me think that Turnus has been brooding about what will happen should Lavinia become the wife of Aeneas.
Adelle wrote: "More promises/vows. Turnus "Saw that they held him to his promise now" (Fitz 12.3). Turnus had made that promise. .."The promise seems especially poignant when it is followed by the "Punic lion" simile.
"His spirit filled with unrelenting flame --
As on the plains of Punic Africa
A lion wounded in the breast by hunters
Relishes going into war at last..." 1.3
Adelle:" WHY does Turnus have to fight? Because it comes down to the decision Turnus makes.
He says it's for the honor and glory. And I'm sure that was an aspect."
Interesting though that Aeneas is not fighting for honor and glory, or for a woman, but for a resolution of the conflict and his "destiny."
"Equally fierce, in armor from his mother,
Aeneas roused his soul to martial rage,
Glad that the proffered pact would solve the conflict." 1.107
Turnus is fighting for his homeland, and for a woman, which sounds similar to what Aeneas was doing during the Trojan war. Here their roles are reversed. Does Aeneas sympathize on some level with Turnus, or at least understand his desperation? Maybe this is why Aeneas is willing to fight the duel with Turnus even after the tides have turned against the Latins. It looks like the Trojan forces have all well in hand and are about to rout the enemy, but Aeneas still offers single combat as a solution to end the battle.
Thomas wrote: "The promise seems especially poignant when it is followed by the "Punic lion" simile.
..."
What do you make of the fact that Vergil introduces Turnus with that wounded lion description ("he snaps the shaft the tracker put into him"?
I ask because he always --- kinda --- uses that same imagergy with Aeneas. Aeneas, who wears the lion skin over his shoulders (Book 1 or 2) and it is Aeneas who is wounded and Turnus is looking for Aeneas and Aeneas has that "snapped-off shaft" (F 12.533) in him.
Is Vergil pointing out, do you think, that there's not that much difference between the two? As you pointed out, (nicely done. I hadn't considered that, but yes, dead on.), "their roles are reversed."
Another similarity, Aeneas said that he left Carthage/Dido, that he couldn't consider her pleas, not because he wanted to but because it was the will of the gods.
And now Turnus, too, says he can't consider the tears and pleas of Amata because he is now "ruled by iron Mars. No longer is Turnus free to put off risk of death" (Fitz 12.105).
..."
What do you make of the fact that Vergil introduces Turnus with that wounded lion description ("he snaps the shaft the tracker put into him"?
I ask because he always --- kinda --- uses that same imagergy with Aeneas. Aeneas, who wears the lion skin over his shoulders (Book 1 or 2) and it is Aeneas who is wounded and Turnus is looking for Aeneas and Aeneas has that "snapped-off shaft" (F 12.533) in him.
Is Vergil pointing out, do you think, that there's not that much difference between the two? As you pointed out, (nicely done. I hadn't considered that, but yes, dead on.), "their roles are reversed."
Another similarity, Aeneas said that he left Carthage/Dido, that he couldn't consider her pleas, not because he wanted to but because it was the will of the gods.
And now Turnus, too, says he can't consider the tears and pleas of Amata because he is now "ruled by iron Mars. No longer is Turnus free to put off risk of death" (Fitz 12.105).
Just stray thoughts.
You posted the passage concerning why Aeneas was fighting.
"Aeneas, fierce in his maternal armor,
Whetted his edge for war, and roused himself
To anger, full of joy that, by the terms
He offered, war should cease" (Fitz 12. 150).
He had to rouse himself to anger.
He's full of joy that war shall cease.
Turnus wants peace, too. "With our own blood
Let us two put an end to war, and there
On that field, let Lavinia be the prize" (F 12.112).
Turnes, too, is joyful. He calls for his team of horses and "smiled with joy."
Turnus, too, roused himself to anger, it seems.
Vergil writes that Turnus made ready his sword. That "the sword was one
The Fire God himself had forged for Daunus,
Dipping it white-hot in the wave of Styx" (F 12.127).
I knew that the Styx was the river one had to cross on death, but I googled and found that one of the meanings of Styx is "hate." So really, when Turnus takes that sword in hand, he, too, starts to rouse himself to anger.
And when he grabs that hardy spear, that he had taken from Auruncan Actor in battle. Actor alive would never have given up that spear. When Turnus grabs it, he remembers that he killed Actor. He's building his anger and hate, I think.
You posted the passage concerning why Aeneas was fighting.
"Aeneas, fierce in his maternal armor,
Whetted his edge for war, and roused himself
To anger, full of joy that, by the terms
He offered, war should cease" (Fitz 12. 150).
He had to rouse himself to anger.
He's full of joy that war shall cease.
Turnus wants peace, too. "With our own blood
Let us two put an end to war, and there
On that field, let Lavinia be the prize" (F 12.112).
Turnes, too, is joyful. He calls for his team of horses and "smiled with joy."
Turnus, too, roused himself to anger, it seems.
Vergil writes that Turnus made ready his sword. That "the sword was one
The Fire God himself had forged for Daunus,
Dipping it white-hot in the wave of Styx" (F 12.127).
I knew that the Styx was the river one had to cross on death, but I googled and found that one of the meanings of Styx is "hate." So really, when Turnus takes that sword in hand, he, too, starts to rouse himself to anger.
And when he grabs that hardy spear, that he had taken from Auruncan Actor in battle. Actor alive would never have given up that spear. When Turnus grabs it, he remembers that he killed Actor. He's building his anger and hate, I think.
We know that only Aeneas is going to come out of this alive. And we do see Rumour rouse the Latins and the men of Aeneas to fight.
But towards the middle of Book 12, prior to the fighting, we see, too, that these peoples COULD have lived together.
The Rutulian troops and the Trojans...both were under the same city walls. And they weren't fighting. They both had built hearths and grassy altars "for their common gods." And Vergil writes of "the Trojan-Tuscan army." They've managed to merge into one unit.
And vows are made---which neither Aeneas nor Latinus are able to keep.
But towards the middle of Book 12, prior to the fighting, we see, too, that these peoples COULD have lived together.
The Rutulian troops and the Trojans...both were under the same city walls. And they weren't fighting. They both had built hearths and grassy altars "for their common gods." And Vergil writes of "the Trojan-Tuscan army." They've managed to merge into one unit.
And vows are made---which neither Aeneas nor Latinus are able to keep.
Look what happens to these people!
They have barely cut the throats of hallowed animals at the altar when passion overcame them and "they ripped the altars to get firebrands"!!! (F 12.387).
They have barely cut the throats of hallowed animals at the altar when passion overcame them and "they ripped the altars to get firebrands"!!! (F 12.387).
This is a good line:
"Learn fortitude and toil from me, my son,
Ache of true toil. Good fortune learn from others" (F 12.595).
Do you think Aeneas thinks that he hasn't had much good fortune?
"Learn fortitude and toil from me, my son,
Ache of true toil. Good fortune learn from others" (F 12.595).
Do you think Aeneas thinks that he hasn't had much good fortune?
This is a good passage:
"What god can help me tell so dread a story?
[men are dead]
Was it thy pleasure, Jupiter, that people
Afterward to live in lasting peace
Should rend each other in so black a storm?" (F 12.680+)
Was there a POINT to all this death?
The men killed on the field haven't benefited.
The men remaining haven't benefited---they were going to live in peace anyway.
Amata hasn't benefited.
Is all this death simply for the PLEASURE of the gods?
WHAT GOD could help tell so dread a story?
"What god can help me tell so dread a story?
[men are dead]
Was it thy pleasure, Jupiter, that people
Afterward to live in lasting peace
Should rend each other in so black a storm?" (F 12.680+)
Was there a POINT to all this death?
The men killed on the field haven't benefited.
The men remaining haven't benefited---they were going to live in peace anyway.
Amata hasn't benefited.
Is all this death simply for the PLEASURE of the gods?
WHAT GOD could help tell so dread a story?
I didn't understand this part.
Aeneas has in effect torn up the contract in which he had asked the gods to confirm that he "shall not make Italians underlings to Trojans" (F 12.255).
So....since he swore that on the gods...and now he disregards that contract because the men of Italy broke the contract...then...doesn't that mean that he didn't REALLY have a contract confirmed by the gods? Doesn't that mean that REALLY he only had a contract with the men of Italy?
Anyway, about line 770 Aeneas says, "Unless our enemies accept our yoke/ And promise to obey us, on this day/
I shall destroy their town, root of this war?"
Here's what I don't get. HOW exactly is the town the root of the war?
Aeneas has in effect torn up the contract in which he had asked the gods to confirm that he "shall not make Italians underlings to Trojans" (F 12.255).
So....since he swore that on the gods...and now he disregards that contract because the men of Italy broke the contract...then...doesn't that mean that he didn't REALLY have a contract confirmed by the gods? Doesn't that mean that REALLY he only had a contract with the men of Italy?
Anyway, about line 770 Aeneas says, "Unless our enemies accept our yoke/ And promise to obey us, on this day/
I shall destroy their town, root of this war?"
Here's what I don't get. HOW exactly is the town the root of the war?
What do we think of Turnus when we find out that he knew the whole time that it was his sister in disguise who had "spoiled the pact by guile"? And he said nothing. Thinking, perhaps, to use the resumption of fighting to his own advantage.
And then that next part. Mmm. Did Juno want Turnus dead, too? Turnus asked Juterna, "But who has wished you sent down from Olympus/ To take this rough work on?/ That you should see/ The painful end of your unhappy brother?"
Why, that would have been Juno. Just using Juterna?
And then that next part. Mmm. Did Juno want Turnus dead, too? Turnus asked Juterna, "But who has wished you sent down from Olympus/ To take this rough work on?/ That you should see/ The painful end of your unhappy brother?"
Why, that would have been Juno. Just using Juterna?
That line of Juno's, about line 1100.
Jupiter had come to her "as she watched the combat/ Out of a golden cloud."
And she tells him that she is "sore at heart," that she is "suffering all that passes," "alone," "resting on air."
That is too rich. Death, destruction, and desolation are happening below...but only to men and women...on her golden clous, Juno suffers.
Jupiter had come to her "as she watched the combat/ Out of a golden cloud."
And she tells him that she is "sore at heart," that she is "suffering all that passes," "alone," "resting on air."
That is too rich. Death, destruction, and desolation are happening below...but only to men and women...on her golden clous, Juno suffers.
Turnus makes that great closing speech:
"Clearly I earned this, and I ask no quarter.
Make the most of your good fortune here.
If you can feel a father's grief--and you, too,
Had such a father in Anchises--then
Let me bespeak your mercy for old age
In Daunus, and return me, or my body,
Stripped, if you will, of life, to my own kin.
You have defeated me. The Ausonians
Have seen me in defeat, spreading my hands.
Lavinia is your bride. But go no further
Out of hatred."
And then Aeneas kills him out of hatred.
The end.
"Clearly I earned this, and I ask no quarter.
Make the most of your good fortune here.
If you can feel a father's grief--and you, too,
Had such a father in Anchises--then
Let me bespeak your mercy for old age
In Daunus, and return me, or my body,
Stripped, if you will, of life, to my own kin.
You have defeated me. The Ausonians
Have seen me in defeat, spreading my hands.
Lavinia is your bride. But go no further
Out of hatred."
And then Aeneas kills him out of hatred.
The end.
Yea. I am so pleased that I actually read The Aeneid. 'Twas a lovely experience reading it with everyone and thank yous. Now I think I shall hide myself away and re-read Carthage Must Be Destroyed.
Adelle wrote: " What do you make of the fact that Vergil introduces Turnus with that wounded lion description ("he snaps the shaft the tracker put into him"? "The "Punic lion" is meant to remind us of Dido, I think, and the "unrelenting flame" as well. Dido never entirely leaves the poem, as you noted earlier. Turnus is described as 'disordered, uncontrolled," at the beginning of Book 12, and this balances well with the state that Aeneas is in at the very end of the book. In a way they are mirror images of each other. Both are out of control and full of hate. We expect this of Turnus, but not necessarily of Aeneas. We expect Aeneas to embody the Roman ideal, to "spare the conquered, strike down the haughty." 6.852 And he almost does spare Turnus, until he sees the belt of Pallas.
Adelle wrote: "I didn't understand this part. Aeneas has in effect torn up the contract in which he had asked the gods to confirm that he "shall not make Italians underlings to Trojans" (F 12.255).
So....sin..."
Ruden translates:
"If in this combat Victory sides with me
(I think it will; may the gods' power confirm this),
I will not make the Trojans overlords
Or claim the throne..."
That "If" is important, I think. Aeneas says that if he does not prevail that he will go back to Evander's land and not make war on Latium again.
Here's what I don't get. HOW exactly is the town the root of the war?
I take this to be rhetorical. The town is conflated with the army, a kind of synecdoche, taking the whole for the part. Under the influence of Juturna, the Latins attack and disrupt the duel between Aeneas and Turnus.
As our scheduled time with the Aeneid draws to a close (as with all our discussions, all these threads will remain open as long as people want to keep discussing the book, and this comment isn't in any way intended to suggest that it's time for people end the discussion,), I want to express my profound gratitude to Thomas for so expertly moderating the discussion. I haven't been able to participate much, to my regret, but I have been following the threads with great interest, and continue to be amazed at the quality of discussion of so many wonderful posters and, in this case in particular, of Thomas's skillful moderation. And we have another treat in store with Laurel about to lead the discussion of all three books of the Divine Comedy.
But as is our practice, we have a "palate cleanser" of a two week Interim Read for a brief intermission between major works. This time I have chosen an Interim Read which needs a bit of explaining, so when you are ready, please go read the soon-to-be-posted comment on the next Interim Read.
Meanwhile, let's keep this wonderful Aeneid discussion going as long as people continue to find it of value and interest.
And again, my deepest thanks to Thomas and all the other great posters here!
Thomas wrote: "Here is an excellent overview of the Aeneid with pointed questions about Book 12 by classics scholar Madeline Miller:
But beginning in the 1960s, a group of scholars, later dubbed the Harvard scho..."
I enjoyed reading that, Thomas. Thanks for the link.
But beginning in the 1960s, a group of scholars, later dubbed the Harvard scho..."
I enjoyed reading that, Thomas. Thanks for the link.
Adelle wrote: "Thanks for the link.."Glad you liked it. And thank you for participating in the discussion. Your comments and notes on the text were fascinating, as usual!
And a big thanks to everyone else who participated as well!
And as E-man mentioned, these threads stay open. So Barbara -- there's still time!!
Thank you, Thomas. That's so nice of you to say. I love this format. Perfect pace. Engaged posters. Many different perspectives. I would never get so much out of these classics were I reading on my own.
Great choice for a title and thank-you to all who commented so well. Having read this over a decade ago, I'd forgotten how lively the descriptions are of key figures and scenes.
Paul
Before that can happen there is divine intervention once again. Juturna, who is a deity but is also the sister of Turnus, is encouraged by Juno to spread rumors throughout the Italian ranks in an effort to disrupt the match between Turnus and Aeneas. She incites the Italians with an omen that is designed to be misread as an indication of their triumph. Aeneas is wounded in the subsequent battle.
At the prompting of Venus, Aeneas and the Trojan contingent attack the city. Amata commits suicide. Aeneas has Turnus on the run and it appears that the war is nearly over. Finally, Juno relents. She only asks that the Latins be allowed to keep their names. Jove agrees to let the Trojans fade out. He will make "one Latin people, with one language."
The duel between Aeneas and Turnus is the last act of the poem. Is Aeneas in this final scene, "good Aeneas, pious Aeneas"?