What are the good things about Twilight?

[KarmaSc0rpi0n]

Mike wrote: "KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "For me it wasn't really an issue that she had these traits, it's that there were no actual consequences for them instead it's seen as this ultimate sign of love instead of wha..."

Those aren't consequences since the immediate solution to a lot of those were things that should have had consequences themselves. Like in New Moon the solution to her losing her mind was simply get Edward back. She is so desperate for Edward to stay in Eclipse that she won't even repremand him for leaving. In factwhen Jacob shows him the consequences of his actions she can't even stand it. There should have been more trust issues because of his actions in New Moon and some kind of realization of the flaws in making one person her entire world. Instead she gets a perfect marriage based out of that same codependence that should have had consequences which nearly dying from caring your demon child isn't and plus that again is rectifyed immediately with vampirism.

I would be inclined to say her breaking down was a consequence if it had led to somewhere that didn't just perpetuated the issue. Because of this break down she became even more codependent latching on to Jacob and when he wasn't around jumping off a cliff nearly killing herself and because of Edward's same codependency he nearly kills them all and in the end the never actually face the root of the problem. They just perpetuate it by latching on to each other in a way that shifted their relationship from one of severe codependence to actually abusive which again is never addressed or even seen as an issue to begin with because all that results from it is the perfect marriage. In real life situations such as with my friend and her husband the consequences run much deeper and usually result in unhappiness on both ends because both parties are so desperate and in need of something from the other that neither can be content and they never once realize this is the path they were on so the end results don't make sense because they should have either gone through this or had some kind of self-actualization and stopped the behavior there. But because we're in basically fairytale land none of this happens and the happily ever after happens automatically with no actual work put into it which is where my brain can't suspend my belief because the most unrealistic parts of this story are the ones actually grounded in real life.

Almost dying to give birth to her demon child isn't a consequence of her codependency especially considering the level of codependency she's shown throughout most of the story suggests that she would have listened to Edward and terminated the pregnancy. It's one of those few moments she's showing independence, but not as a result of realizing that she needs to take control of her life, but simply because her obsession has shifted on to the idea that a piece of Edward needs to be in the world and not that it's her child. Now I get that there is a bond between mother and child, but not once does Bella even think about important other things such as how to raise her kid or how difficult being a mother is going to be because her tunnel vision on getting the child into the world . This again is reasonable, but when the kid pops out and she is alive, Bella has none of the trials of motherhood because impossible baby is now perfect and everyone else takes care of her making any sort of actual consequences now null and void and subsequently unrealistic. Again a detail rooted in real life being the most unrealistic part of a book with vampires and werewolves. It being a fantasy doesn't just explain away all this flaws, there has to be some realistic solution to get to the happy ending that we got. Point A to point B make no sense because instead of actual consequences we are given Taylor made situation where the characters act this way because it's needed for the story instead of it being what character would actually do. Happy ending for a fantasy are necessary, but it needs to seem like it can stay that way instead the story gives a happily ever after for now, until the inevitable obsessive infatuation wears off and they aren't left with a base for their relationship to stand on because that is the only thing that really ties them together.

These details aren't consequences because they ultimately contribute nothing to the story other than being nice details. And her breakdown is seen as proof of love, not a consequence of codependency which is why no one calls her out on it. And I don't see how wanting to keep her pregnancy even though it's killing her as a consequence of codependency because it deals with a whole different issue.

[Mike]

My, aren't you loquacious?

I'm not claiming they are perfect books. Certainly they have their flaws, but at the end of the day, it is all still a fantasy. And I do think that makes a difference.

If this series was based in reality, then I think your complaints would be more valid, but it's a story with vampires and werewolves (okay, shapeshifters if you want to be picky). It's a story about a young innocent girl caught up in a world of supernatural creatures. It's not a story about the consequences of obsession. It's basically little more than a detailed fairy tale. We like our fairy tales to be simple, not too complicated, and not mired down in reality.

I noticed, in spite of your loquaciousness, you still failed to answer my biggest question:

What kind of consequences do you think there should have been?

I do agree with you that the birth of her child was not really a consequence, at least not of her obsession for Edward, but it was a consequence of the decisions she made. She wanted this child, not just because a "piece of Edward needs to be in the world", but also because she loves the child so much she cannot even bear the idea of ending it. This may be because of a natural motherly love for her child, but also because of the supernatural power Renesmee had, even as an unborn.

But I disagree that her breakdown was not a consequence of her obsession. She basically fell apart mentally, and tried to commit suicide because the object of her obsession left her. If that's not a consequence then I don't know what is.

Sure, the solution for this was to go and rescue Edward from the Volturi, but again, this is a fantasy. Would you have preferred she just buck up and forget about Edward, get a job, find another boyfriend, get married, have normal kids, and grow up? That would have been a very different story.

Plus, this story also demonstrates the obsession Edward had over Bella. He would rather let himself die than live without her. Imagine this for a moment, a hundred year old vampire, with eternity out in front of him, chooses to end his life rather than continue on without this fragile human female he just met a few months earlier. That is obsession at the extreme.

I think when you really break it down, this whole story is about obsession. Bella's obsession with Edward, and vampirism in general. Edward's obsession with Bella, and with protecting her. Even Jacob's obsession with Bella, and then later with Renesmee. Are there consequences? Yes. Are they realistic consequences? Maybe not, but it's not exactly a realistic story either. Like I said, it's a fairy tale. A romantic fairy tale, but a fairy tale nonetheless.

Sounds like you are not okay with that, but I'm perfectly fine with it. When I read stories like this, I read them to escape the real world. If I wanted realism, I would read something else.

[KarmaSc0rpi0n]

Mike wrote: "My, aren't you loquacious?"

Thank you for pointing out something I've known since I was two years old. If it hasn't changed in 20 years I doubt you pointing it out will.

"If this series was based in reality, then I think your complaints would be more valid, but it's a story with vampires and werewolves (okay, shapeshifters if you want to be picky). It's a story about a young innocent girl caught up in a world of supernatural creatures. It's not a story about the consequences of obsession. It's basically little more than a detailed fairy tale. We like our fairy tales to be simple, not too complicated, and not mired down in reality."

The series is based in reality. The premise is basically what if reality as we know it had monsters in. The fantasy element is only that there are monsters. Now if there were things like a magical realms and this story existed somewhere in a land that doesn't exist I'd be inclined to give it more leeway, but as it is the most unrealistic parts of the story are things that occur in the base of reality. And it's funny you say that since you liked Bella as she is because it made her more human which means on some level you need at least the human characters to be realistic. And relationships such as the one that she had actually occur in real life. And in real life relationships such as these usually end in some kind of murder suicide or a deep resentment on both parts because of the complete and utter lack of control they have over their own life.

"I noticed, in spite of your loquaciousness, you still failed to answer my biggest question:

What kind of consequences do you think there should have been?"


I did answer you question with this: "unhappiness on both ends because both parties are so desperate and in need of something from the other that neither can be content and they never once realize this is the path they were on so the end results don't make sense because they should have either gone through this or had some kind of self-actualization and stopped the behavior there" The consequences should have been either severe unhappiness or some kind of self actualization so that the ending in the book makes sense.

I see Bella akin to my friend. She is financially dependent on her husband while Bella is mentally dependent on Edward, but both take what ever abuse their partner gives them because their dependency on them makes it impossible to leave. And neither have the kind of support systems that if they chose to leave they could survive. Bella's is more due t her own mental barrier, but my friend literally can't afford to support herself and her three kids because he controls any and all money made by him or her. People around both them don't see anything wrong because neither partner has hit them so they fail to see the mental abuse as dangerous. But I can very easily seeing Edward hitting Bella because if he thinks it'll protect her or knock some sense into her he'll see it as justified which is something he seemed very close to doing in Eclipse. Finally the nail in the coffin to me that makes them both similar is that both have had people try to help them leave, but both always go back and will always go back because neither knows what else to do. I don't see how any of this should be a fairytale or romantic or even lead to a fairytale ending because trust me my friend is not living the dream.

"But I disagree that her breakdown was not a consequence of her obsession. She basically fell apart mentally, and tried to commit suicide because the object of her obsession left her. If that's not a consequence then I don't know what is."

The reason I don't think it's a consequence is because it adds basically nothing to the story other than telling the reader how mentally unstable Bella is. This breakdown is glossed over in the next two books to the point that if it was taken out the book would end exactly the same. Her breakdown has no lasting effect on their relationship so I don't see it as a consequence.

"Sure, the solution for this was to go and rescue Edward from the Volturi, but again, this is a fantasy. Would you have preferred she just buck up and forget about Edward, get a job, find another boyfriend, get married, have normal kids, and grow up? That would have been a very different story."

The solution wasn't to go save Edward because she would have done that breakdown or not. The solution was to go back to him and act like the last six months of her life didn't occur. As though it didn't matter because he was back now. Edward should have had to work to get her trust back and then maybe she should have gone back to him. Soulmate or not betrayal isn't something that is just easily forgotten. They could have ended up together in the end, but with the necessary work put in like them going back from the start and re-gotten to know each other because if this series has proven anything it's that neither knows each other that well. They jumped 0 to 100 which as you pointed out is a facet of obsession, but the book was trying to sell love which is why none of the realistic consequences of obsession are met. The story is basically what if obsession was love which it's not. I would have preferred it sell an actual love story or owned up to what it actually is.

" Sounds like you are not okay with that, but I'm perfectly fine with it. When I read stories like this, I read them to escape the real world. If I wanted realism, I would read something else."

Well that's the difference between me and the people that liked the series. I need realism to believe it because I can only suspend it for so much. Vampires and werewolves/shape shifters have free range to make up about because they're not real, but love and obsession not so much because they are real and if that's the main selling point I need it to be believable.

[Mari]

My favorite thing is the character of Bella. She is a complete original. I have never seen a female character that is dignified, quiet, kind, cooperative, and still knows what things she will not compromise on. Edward wants her to be mortal, her dad wants her to stay at home, Mike wants to date her….people want things from her that she is unwilling to give, and she NEVER gives in, but she gets her way by being honest, kind and logical. Not be being demanding, loud, and overly emotional.

[summer]

Mike wrote: "J. wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "I hate Twilight (it's badly written, predictably plotted and contrived, badly paced, antifeminist and has lousy characterization)"

Just reverse or ignore everything you ..."

Well, Jocelyn, this is just my opinion and I'm sure you just like different books from me, but maybe some people like predictable plots *shrugs* I'm not that big a fan of Bella and Edward, my interest centred on Jasper and Alice, they had a more interesting pull to me.
I, personally, had the whole books, apart from the non-existent battle scene at the end, spoiled for me. I agree with the idea that basically no main characters died in it and that there was not really anything to even put them in real danger, (because, lets face it, if there are more books in the series the main character kinda have to survive in some form or another...) So, on the whole, I actually found the Volturi more inteestering that the Cullens, I think.

[KarmaSc0rpi0n]

Summer wrote: "Mike wrote: "J. wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "I hate Twilight (it's badly written, predictably plotted and contrived, badly paced, antifeminist and has lousy characterization)"

Just reverse or ignore ev..."

While I'm definitely not the biggest fan of Twilight I will admit it has its merits as a romance novel. It basically spits out the same formula without all the gratuitous sex and while many (myself included) roll their eyes at that it obviously is a formula that works because it hasn't changed over the years and still sells well, so if it's not broken...

But as I said many novels do this and yet without the backlash (or sales) of Twilight and that's all because of the potential it had and mainly, like you mentioned, because of the minor characters. I've said this before and I'll say it again SM gave her minor characters more depth and even character development than her main two characters. Hell Jacob her semi-main character had more depth than the two of them combined which isn't saying much, he's still severely underdeveloped but at least I know what his interests, hobbies and even life goals outside of obsessing over a girl are, you know an identity. But characters like Leah who's barely in the entire series does more growing as a person than Bella and that's sad because Bella went through more life changes that should have incited growth, but it all falls flat. What's even worse is that all of Leah's growth and even inclusion in the series becomes completely irrelevant when Renesemee comes into the picture which again is wasted potential and in favor of the nothing character plot device, Renesemee. The book had the potential to be good, maybe even great, if only SM had focused on her more interesting flavorful minor characters like Alice (I don't actually care for her, but at least she had a mystery to her that was worth solving), Jasper (he's pretty meh to me, but he's always good for a good story), or any of the werewolves (I'm a little biased because I prefer werewolves over vampires, but they had more personality and in the brief time they were in the book they seemed to have more interesting lives that were actually relatable. As far as I can tell with the exception of Carlise because he's the only one who seems to do anything productive, the only thing the Cullen's do is repeat high school, stand around and buy shit all day, they don't even have the edge that eccentric rich people have because in all honesty they seem very mundane which is sad when you consider they're supposed to be scary monsters). Instead it focuses on a "mature" teenaged girl (she contradicts this multiple times throughout the series) and self-loathing vampire with a God complex falling in love (obsession) which actually sounds interesting until the execution completely ignores the clear flaws and hurtles a couple like this would actually have to overcome and instead glosses over it with romanticism. **Rant Over**

The point I was trying to make, but got lost there for a bit is that SM obviously did actually know how to write a good character but instead chose to squander it on Bella and Edward which is equally the cause for the like as well as the hate. It's a frustrating series to think about when you see what it's aiming for and what we got especially at the same time realizing it could have gone for what it aimed for "a good romance story that could stand the test of time" instead it's going to be remembered as that phase in pop culture even by those who like it well after the fact, but it's liked for this reason because it's exactly what others are looking for boring cut out mundane main characters that they want to believe had this epic love because it's not happening in real life (at least often and long lasting). So in conclusion Twilight does have entertainment value which I never denied it just has characters that can't quite hold up a book which takes the realism out for me (and many others) and thus it's relatability, but others don't want that, they want complete fantasy that reminds them nothing of real life so they can escape and this is passable for that.