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SURVEY - Have you ever thought about working with an editor? Why or why not?
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Hi Christina,I always use an editor, for the simple reason that my native language is not English - it's Dutch. I write in English simply because it evolved that way - I used to write fan fiction, and the only way to get people to read them was to write in English.
I have become quite good at writing English, however, an editor is invaluable for catching typos and grammar errors, as well as let me know what I am not making any sort of sense. A lot of my fan fiction readers enjoy my unusual and quirky style as I attempt to translate some of my dutch background into English text, and usually, it is quite clear what I am saying (only, in a different fashion not usually seen in English). Sometimes, however, it makes no sense and an editor is key in letting me know and replace those parts that I have taken too much creative license on.
The 'usual' editorial tasks of plot holes, continuity, and so on, are usually caught out by the group of beta readers that have graciously volunteered their time to go over all the stuff I write.
I hope this answered your question - feel free to ask if I can help in any other way, or if you would like me to expand on a point.
Kind regards,
Rick
Hi Rick,Thanks for the feedback. You know, I didn't even think about beta readers in my survey - what communities do you draw your beta readers from?
Hi Christina, They're a group of people that grew naturally while I was writing fan fiction - they were those that were most vocal and supportive of my efforts, and were willing to discuss plot points, theories, and scientific realities with me. So, when I started writing original stuff, I asked if they were interested in helping me out. Some agreed, so didn't.
There are only a few of them that provide regular feedback, and some of them are quite irregular. I'd certainly like to expand this group, so I think I'll do what I always did - if someone takes the time to write to me, I'll take the time to write back and take things from there.
Some people simply write a 'thank you for the enjoyable read', and those get a politely worded 'thank you for reading' message back. Other people, though, actually take the time to write an insightful review, bring up plot points and so on, and those are the people that I like to keep around me to further improve my writing.
Like most of the things I do, it just seemed to grow organically, which tends to be the reason why my group of beta readers is made up of a very eclectic collection of people - I have a PhD student, an IT manager, someone working computer support, and one person who is currently working himself into the ground trying to start a publishing business with myself as his currently biggest author.
I think that is possibly the biggest help to a an author, a varied group of beta readers. For example, the PhD student will ensure that I remain true to realistic principles. The manager just likes a good story and is willing to overlook scientific problems but will come back to me with plot holes and inconsistencies. The support person rather liked focusing on the good things rather than the problems - so he will provide much needed positive reinforcement.
Like I said before, I'd certainly like to expand the group, more feedback is always better, but I'd also need to make sure that people invited will actually be of benefit.
I hope my rambles make sense. ;)
Kind regards,
Rick
My copy editor has found things that that make me blush, including a plot hole that you can fly a 747 in!Beta Readers though, are key to smoothing out the edges in your drafts. I tend to use 2 sets of readers as well as individuals I trust for multiple reads.
My editors are the ones who keep the gears on my books oiled up and spinning. I'm just the energizer bunny who goes around banging on the drums trying to make as much noise as I can. Without my editors, my books would lose all their luster and that ain't a good thing.
Hi Rick, Wesley, and Kevis,Thanks so much for your feedback. Sometimes it's discouraging to be an editor in this field, but your comments make me feel encouraged again.
Rick, your beta reader group in particular sounds fabulous. What luck!
I've never written a published story that didn't go through an editor, but I've never used a freelance editor either. Every editor I've ever used was provided by the publisher upon acceptance of the story.Sorry, I'm sure that doesn't quite answer your question.
yes, if you sell a story you will get an editor when your work is being prepared for publication. Did you mean a freelance editor? Some big-name writers do employ them. A friend of mine who was about to self-publish got one to check her MS first, though she'd been through some beta readers including me. It can be quite an expensive process, though, so I just read and reread and submit, hoping it will sell! ;-) If you're going to get a freelancer, though, it might be a good idea to get someone who knows something about the subject you're covering. There's no point in getting someone to check your typoes and make the language sound good if they miss that glaring error in science on page 35!
I'm very lucky my friend works as an editor, otherwise I'm afraid I wouldn't have used one. Not because I don't want to use one, but simply, as a student, I can't afford to hire one.The average price to hire a professional editing company is around $5000 for a manuscript of about 150,000 words. This usually includes grammar/spelling, flow, plot, character, style, content editing, etc. In other words, the full deal.
I'm not saying editor's aren't worth the money. They certainly make a difference, and readers can usually tell if the author hasn't had someone look over their story. It always helps to have a fresh pair of eyes go through the manuscript before you submit it to a publisher, or even if you want to self-publish.
I always say if an author is looking for compliments, give it to a family member or a friend. If you want constructive criticism, unfortunately you might have to shell out some money, or make a friend in the industry. It's worth it to work with an editor. They'll see things you won't.
I myself wouldn't mind working with one as editors is able to see things you the author usually don't and it's hard finding people who will critique your work honestly. As many have already said though they're not cheap and we newbs and non established writers usually don't have the money to hire a good one and or we've been hoodwinked so we're cautious when it comes to the matter of editorsThen there's the instinct thing. You the author know the core of what you have is good and has potential and yet you keep being told that everything has to change (genre, story, characters, character names, ethnicity etc.) so you go with your gut and plod along. Some people are lucky and able to finally catch a break and it pays off and others end up lost in the lost potential crowd. It's a touchy thing, for many writers their stories are extensions of themselves. You don't trust your child or pet with anyone, writers are pretty much the same way when it comes to their stories. Just another thing that sometimes puts editors in that same basket as telemarketers
But yes nothing would please me more than to find someone who will red ink my manuscript. It's usually the difference between your story being average and it being something memorable
I have never worked with an editor, though I always read through my manuscripts two or three times before publishing so as to catch mistakes, plot holes, inconsistencies, and typos. Even so, I don't always catch everything. Since I am soley responsible for everything I publish from the text to the book covers, I really don't have much of a choice. Maybe if I make a little more money at this I might be able to hire an actual editor, but for now, I have to edit the books myself.
If you're going to spend money on publishing your own book instead of taking a chance with a publishing company that will pay you if they accept it, then there's no point in going cheap on making it a book you can be proud of. That's what editors are for. Here's the link to a web site of an editor who has just recently hung up her shingle as a freelancer and specialises in speculative fiction. She has been editing for years, for Andromeda Spaceways Inflight Magazine - she edited a story I sold them some time ago. If you get the science wrong in a science fiction story or have your horses run all night like furry machines in fantasy, she will pick it up. She is a friend, but if I ever considered self-publishing I would be happy to ask her:http://edwinaharvey.wordpress.com/
I don't know wat she charges, but no harm in asking.
My wife is my copy-editor. Technically speaking, she is my proofreader and she finds all the grammatical goofs I tend to make. She is not a science fiction fan so the story usually doesn't interest her. But even so, she's managed to point out some areas of improvement. She worked at a newspaper for 27 years and is quite good at proofreading. If she one day decided she never wanted to proof another book again I would have to consider finding an inexpensive proofreader. Since I am an indie, cost would be the greatest factor in my decision.There's also a lot to say about self-proofing your work. Every writer should strive to continue to improve their understanding of the English language. I will be the first to admit that I was terrible at English in school so I read a LOT of books on grammar and proper English. You might not think you're learning, but the more more you read such books the better you become. In today's world-wide market, it also pays to understand that American English is not the same as what is spoken in the UK. There are differences in spelling and word usage. I preface my books with a short blurb indicating that I am an American author and I write using American English.
Sue (posted 12-14-12) hit another important consideration. If you're going to write science fiction you should have a solid understanding of the science you're dealing with. It's okay to take liberties (it's fiction after all) but don't try to stretch the science to the breaking point. If you do, it becomes magic and now your SciFi is a bad fantasy.
Just a note on what a couple people have said, re: reading your own stuff. I read my own stuff AT LEAST TWENTY TIMES word-for-word, even reading parts of it out loud (to my dogs!) and other people still find typos and grammatical issues. A beta-reader (which you might be able to get free) is important, at the very least.
Everyone needs someone else to look at their work. I've worked with professional editors, where I had no choice who I was working with, or how great there involvement was, and it was generally a good experience.I've never actually had cause to hire a freelance editor though. By the time I started working on longer projects that needed that, I had met my wife. Many people will tell you that you always need editors/readers other than family friends, because they can't actually be as honest in their feedback as you need. In my case, at least, this isn't so. She has edited other writers work, and learned from assisting her mother as an editor at a vanity press, and a childhood analyzing books with her escapist father. She's the most obsessive, meticulous nightmare of a reader I could ask for. Quite frequently, her critiques of the finer points of my stories are nearly as long as the stories themselves. I think she's even harsher on me than she is on other writers, but we don't own a single book that she hasn't annotated. She refuses to review books, though she'd enjoy it, because it would be cruel to the authors involved.
Hey, it works though! Nearly every reviewer has said "very well edited". Not one has pointed out specific errors. She preens, and teases me by memorizing my worst sentences pre-correction, to be chanted in a singsong tone at her amusement.
I know a few freelance editors who are pretty well recommended, and am happy to keep them in mind for if becomes needed in the future, but currently, I have yet to meet an editor or beta reader who has consistently provided the quality of feedback that she has. Every writer needs that type of feedback from somewhere though, whether it's an editor, or a team of beta readers.
I wouldn't even consider sending my work out without having an editor look over it. I was lucky enough to be recommended to one through family. I was a bit disappointed with the amount of red it came back with, but as I went through the changes, I knew they were making my work better. On top of that, I was learning what mistakes I make as a writer and was learning to avoid them.Any writer that is so arrogant to believe they don't need an editor doesn't deserve the sales they get. It doesn't matter how good you are, when you've been over a script you wrote yourself a dozen or two dozen times, you're going to glaze over things and you're going to publish a work with typos, misspellings, and plot holes.
If you're an independent author, it's even more important because you're trying to put your manuscript up against the ones from the big publishing companies who are pumping hundreds or even thousands of dollars into editing, revision, cover art, placement and advertising. It's not exactly cheap, but it is a necessity for your work to even be considered competitive.
People who say "I just can't afford it/I don't need it. I'll go publish anyway." are one of the reasons Self-published books aren't taken seriously. Because a lot of people then push books and writings through CreateSpace or the other self-publishing fields that simply aren't worth reading. The writing itself might be good, the story could be original, the characters well fleshed, but the spelling and grammar mistakes just build up and build up until the reader just can't take it anymore, puts the book down and never picks it back up.
It might not be cheap, but there are things you can do in the meantime. Wait to publish until you can save up for an editor. If you're writing for the right reasons, you don't want to publish your book until it's the best it could be anyway, right? Look around, send out query letters. You might get lucky and find an editor that's just getting started and needs to get his name out there and will look at your work for a discount. At the very least, check around and see if there's any writing clubs in your area, a lot of them do critique sessions or may even have connections to cheaper editors in the area.
How does a person go about finding a good editor? Unfortunately, I've read several novels that an author paid a fair amount of money ($300?) to one person & didn't think much of the job that was done. Grammar & such was OK in one, but there was confusion with characters. Another was pretty horrible all the way around.
I have a nonfiction book & I'd love to get it edited. I'm saving up my pennies & would like to spend them well.
Where do I look for an editor?
What should I look for in an editor or should I look for a team service?
How is the price determined? By the number of words or pages?
What should I expect to pay?
Any help appreciated.
I have a nonfiction book & I'd love to get it edited. I'm saving up my pennies & would like to spend them well.
Where do I look for an editor?
What should I look for in an editor or should I look for a team service?
How is the price determined? By the number of words or pages?
What should I expect to pay?
Any help appreciated.
$300 would, I think, be very cheap for a professional editor. If your book is 300 pages, that would only be $1 per page. I can see that the grammar and spelling could be corrected for that price, but not anything else. Like others on the group, I use BETA readers to pick up on style, character clarity and plot holes, as well as grammar and spelling, before it goes near an editor.
As your book is non-fiction, you might try your local university, in whichever department is closest to the topic of your book. Even if, for instance, it's a recipe book, you might find someone in the Humanities department (Journalism, perhaps?)who will edit for you. You could write up a notice - Wanted, Editor, for X page non-fiction, topic is X, payment is X, and your contact number, to leave with the department, or even put on the student services notice board. Some universities will also publish the notice for you in the Employment section of their student web page.
Kelly wrote: "$300 would, I think, be very cheap for a professional editor. If your book is 300 pages, that would only be $3 per page. I can see that the grammar and spelling could be corrected for that price, b..."Well, $300 for a 300 page book actually works out to $1 a page, but that is unbelievably cheap and still not unheard of.
Prices can vary from the $300 figure to upwards of several thousand dollars. I did a search online and found a branch of Yale University that offered editing for .015 to .09 cents per word. How the price is determined varies greatly depending on the editor though. Some are per-word, others per-page, and some just have a flat rate based on the specific work.
Where to look is really the biggest question. I found my first editor through a family friend, but you could look through sites like this one, through a search engine, or find local writing groups, go to a meeting and ask around about who they work with. It's really a matter of not leaving any stone unturned. Editors are people and some you might work well with while others you might come to blows. So make sure you look around before deciding to make a deal with one.
You might also check around through goodreads here. Some of us are editors, too. Not to toot my own horn, lol,
As an independent author I view my role as the visionary. The editor is the architect/engineer. I wouldn't send out a thing w/o having a good and honest editor involved.
Finding your kindred editor might take a while. Just know its a trial and success process. But do select and employ your first editor as soon as possible. And if you quickly locate a couple you are comfortable with for a reasonable price, don't wait too long! Time and opportunities are ticking.
A good editor is a must, finding one is a pain. (I like mine) & a good proofreader is nice too. When you have someone read your writing, it is amazing what they see that you missed.
I think one or two of you guys have a strange idea of what an editor does. If you can't pick up your own typoes and grammar errors you probably shouldn't be publishing. As a slush reader I can tell you that when I get a story where the author hasn't bothered to check their work and clearly hasn't done grammar since their schooldays, I don't bother finishing it. An editor you hire to work on your manuscript has the right to assume you already know that stuff. It's his or her job to help you make your book the best it can be, something you can be proud of. Anyone who thinks you can get that kind of service for $300 is dreaming. It takes a lot of time and work and editors have to pay the bills like anyone else. Try an amount in the thousands and you might be coming closer. And if it's spec fic you need someone who specialises in that area or they won't pick up glaring errors. Your old English teacher might be able to help with the proofreading, but not the editing. Beta readers are just there to give you a reaction to the story. If you're lucky the friends you ask might be honest. You might even listen to them. ;-)
I agree that good spelling is necessary but spell check only goes so far and I don’t know about anyone else but my brain starts to auto correct. (Hence a good proofreader) However, as for an editor, having them remind you that not everyone knows about certain things or tells you to please explain a paragraph better… I could keep going but the list is endless. I look at it as they are on the outside looking in and they are able to see the holes. Good editors are invaluable.
Horace wrote: "How does a person go about finding a good editor? Unfortunately, I've read several novels that an author paid a fair amount of money ($300?) to one person & didn't think much of the job that was d..."To answer your question, Horace, I'd recommend that the first order of business is for you to ask an editor what services they are offering. The biggest misconception that people have of editing is that there's one kind of service. If an editor tells you they are going to edit your book, but doesn't give the specifics, I'd be wary if I were you.
Editing is usually broken up into three different services.
-Content Editing (also called Literary or substantive editing)
-Copy Editing
-Proofreading
They are three separate and distinct services that deal with different aspects of your book. The problem I see authors have with freelance editors is that many of them don't tell authors what they are paying for. This not only leads to confusion of the service, but results in books only being partially, and sometimes incompetently edited.
Also, editing is usually done on a per word basis. As with most things in life, you also get what you pay for. But there are some very talented and affordable freelance editors out there who won't break the bank so to speak.
Last, but not least, always request a sample edit. Sometimes even the best editor can be a bad match for an author. By requesting a sample edit, you can find an editor who not only knows their stuff, but is best suited to your temperament and style of writing.
If you're unable to locate an editor, send me a PM, and I'll point you in the direction of a few terrific editors who work in your genre.
I agree, Kevis, and would add that if a writer has taken the trouble to write a book, they should be patient and check out all the things they need to know instead of rushing it out with either no editor or one not suited to the work.As for a sample edit, Edwina Harvey will do you a $25 deal for the first 2500 words and if you decide to proceed with her, she will deduct that from your final bill. And she is new in the freelance field, but very experienced in editing for Andromeda Spaceways Inflight Magazine. She is patient and careful and used to dealing with first- timers.
Thus far, I have not self published anything. I have had my work accepted by small epublishers so an editor was assigned to me. If I ever choose to go the self publishing route, I will hire a trusted editor to look over it, after it has been read and critiqued by crit partners and beta readers. We are too close to our own writing to be able to see all of our mistakes.Most editors charge by the word not the page, and they usually charge more or less depending on the type of edits you are looking for. Some (like me) will edit a sample for free so you can see their editing style and you can better determine if it works for you.
Thanks all. You were especially helpful, Kevis.
Nothing is perfect. Typos & grammar errors never go completely away, just get minimized. It's pretty amazing how many hang on through all the readers & editors.
Nothing is perfect. Typos & grammar errors never go completely away, just get minimized. It's pretty amazing how many hang on through all the readers & editors.
The only reason I don't use an editor is cost. I do however have a team of very good proof-readers and I am training to do editing. Personally I've found that separation is key to editing or proofreading my own material. What I like to do is write a book, check it as best I can, and then leave it untouched until I've finished the next one. Then I come back to it and do the proper editing. I do a MUCH better editing job on stuff I wrote months ago rather than stuff I have just finished.For proofreading, I don't think you can get around having several other well-educated/experienced people proofread for you.
Although I certainly have my own weaknesses as an editor, I've had a LOT of experience editing work as a writer and teacher so I tend not to work with outside editors.
I hired an editor for my first novel, and it was the absolute right choice for me. I was committed to a financial investment, and I found an excellent and affordable editor through a referral. Also, I needed the confidence that an outside eye was evaluating my story objectively and with proper knowledge (I'm terrible with grammar).
I have a tight budget, and years of experience editing, so I make do with beta readers whenever possible.It's harder than having someone else do it, but I've done all the different kinds of editing work, so I bite the bullet and do it myself.
I use formal and informal critique circles to provide both high level and occasionally content / line editing, and a tight group of fellow authors for which I trade line editing services (oddly as writers we can edit other people's works much better than our own). I do have a free lance editor that I have worked with very occasionally, when the stakes are high enough--most recently on a polish for a pro short story market that I was requested to resubmit to (it worked, I got in, although even for pro markets it's not really that cost effective --payment rates for the story are not much more than the editing cost).Which gets to the crux of the pay-for-editor dilemma--there is so little money in publishing for the average author that its a sour business case to pay an editor if that's the only criteria. Kinda like paying a pro to improve your golf game, it's really unlikely you will ever make the tour no matter how much you pay...
Only the cost is prohibitive. Otherwise I'd use one for every novel...
I am running a survey about the market for editors among independent/self-published authors, and need people to fill it out.
I want to learn about why you have or haven't ever considered working with an editor. If you're interested, please fill out the survey in the link below - it takes only about 10 minutes to complete.
Thanks!
A survey about working with freelance fiction editors.